I am not sure if these have been answered, but if they have , I cannot find the answers.
I wish to create a magical maguffin, and have the appropriate feats, and skills and the masterwork maguffin. However, I have a series of questions.
1. I do not have the caster level, I just add +5 to the difficulty in creating ?
2. I have the caster level, but do not have the spell, I add +5 to the difficulty ?
3. I have the caster level, do not have the spell, but have an allied spell caster who has the spell, do I add +5 still ?
4. I do not have the caster level, nor do I have the spell, that is +10 difficulty ?
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1. Normally, no. Caster level is not a requirement unless (a) caster level is actually listed in the Prerequisites section for the item or (b) the item is a weapon or armor with an enhancement bonus.
2. Yes.
2b. If it's a potion, spell-trigger, or spell-completion item, you must provide the spell. +5 DC is not an option.
3. No, you're good to go. This even works for potions, spell-trigger items, and spell-completion items.
4. See 1. If caster level really is a prerequisite, then yes.
What others here have said is true, but it's worth noting that if you have someone else casting the spell, it still needs to be cast every day it takes to create the item. So if you're paying for it, it could add up *fast.*
Unfortunately, not all of the Craft feats work the same way in that you need the appropriate spells for scrolls, wands, staves, and potions and cannot bypass any requirements.
For any other item you can forgo a requirement by adding 5 to the DC for each requirement you chose to forgo, except of course the Craft Feat which you cannot forgo.
Like Blaphers said, the caster level is only a requirement if it is listed under requirements like it is for Bracers of Armor. It is always a requirement for enhancement bonuses to weapons and armor. In these cases, however, you may ignore the caster level requirement and increase the DC accordingly.
I only say this because it is hard to give a blanket answer when talking about a general "macguffin" as it sometimes changes depending on the type of "macguffin" being crafted.
I just used the term maguffin, as a general term for a wonderous item.
So from what I am understanding the caster level, is not needed, but it provides the 5 + caster level(4th edition) difficulty.
As for question 2, and 4, understood as well. However, I still have a issues in regards to my number 3 question.
The major debate that I am having with my GM is the following set of lines from the rules that we have.
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions.
These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.
Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be
known by the item’s creator (although access through another
magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic
item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not
meet"
His argument is that the other spellcaster, is an option, and that you still don't meet the requirement for the spell and thus +5 difficulty.
Sounds like your GM is trying to argue semantics to make it work his way. He could just say no crafting allowed if he doesn't like crafting, but I digress. A reasonable person would look at the line you quoted and see the notation in parentheses and conclude that having access to a spell through another spellcaster indeed fulfills the requirement. Just make the item at a low enough caster level that you can't possibly fail when taking 10 even with the -5.
Level 5 Wizard with a spellcraft of +12(+4 Int, +5 Ranks, +3 Class Skill) is crafting a +1 longsword taking 10:
22-5=17 Much higher than the DC 8 required to create a CL3 +1 longsword
I agree with Robert in that it looks like an issue with the wording.
Is it worded funny? Yes! Could it have been worded better? Yes!
However, remember that most of Pathfinder was bulk copying and pasting from the OGL and 3.5 along with some major modifications by Paizo so there is surely some weird editing from time to time. So, I look at all the rules with "common sense" and how I think the developers meant for it to be and then consult FAQ and the messageboards for further enlightenment.
So, yes the caster level is there to set the difficulty in trying to craft the item (DC = Caster Level + 5) and for other effects of using or dispelling the item later on as it is used.
The crafter does not have to provide any spell requirements himself. That clause in the parentheses is there to try and make that clear. This applies to spell-trigger and spell-completion items where the spell can not be ignored by just increasing the craft DC by 5.
In the end your DM will have to decide how he wants to rule on this, but, as has been mentioned, this is how the rules are written (maybe not crystal clear) and surely how the rules have been interpreted by developers and players of the game alike.
Good luck!
The caster level listed on each item is not the caster level required to create the item. A +1 Amulet of Natural Armor does not have a required caster level of 5. The caster level is whatever you decide to make it. It does not add +5 to the DC if you are not the caster level that is listed in the book for each item. The only time an item has a caster level requirement is if it lists that requirement in the prerequisites for construction. The only other caster level requirement is the minimum level required to cast the required spells. For example, if an item calls out dimension door as one of its prerequisites, then you must be caster level 7 as that is the lowest level that any spellcaster can actually cast that spell.
The item's caster level is in no way a requirement. It is simply there to determine DC for dispel magic and spellcraft checks to identify them.
smallberries, I will join you in that scotch, as that made my head hurt. :)
from the looks of it, and after a minor debate with my gm, he is going to invoke rule 0 in regards to crafting, and go with you don't have the spell, you cannot create, unless you pay for someone else, in which case it adds 5, due to you not having the spell.
I just wish that section was a little better written. :(
@Smallberries, I think your off a bit on this.
There are only three requirements for an Amulet of Natural Armor:
#1 Craft Wondrous Item
#2 Barkskin
#3 Crafter's caster level must be at least three times the amulet's bonus
So to craft an Amulet of Natural Armor +1 a 3rd level wizard who has Craft Wondrous Item can craft one with a DC 15 (Base 5 + Caster Level 5 + 5 Ignore Barkskin Requirement) check if he did not have Barkskin available.
If he got a druid to cast Barksin (paid or an ally to cast it for free) it would be DC 10 (Base 5 + Caster Level 5).
The checks would be exactly the same for a 5th level wizard.
The same 3rd or 5th level wizard could also make an Amulet of Natural Armor +2 to +5 with a DC 20 (Base 5 + Caster Level 5 + 5 Ignore Barkskin + 5 Ignore 3 times Caster Level) or DC 15 (Base 5 + Caster Level 5 + 5 Ignore 3 times Caster Level) with the aid of a druid.
The Caster Level 5 is not a requirement. It is just the Caster Level to set the DC for craft and the DC for dispelling and such.
When an ally or someone supplies a requirement, there is no need to add +5 as the requirement has been met.
@Mokshai, I am sorry your DM is going to do that as rule 0 should really not be invoked here as it is a rule. However, if he decides to make it a houserule, then so be it.
The spell prerequisites are similar, but add some additional cost. The idea is you have to cast the requisite spell on the item being crafted, every day, until the crafting is done. If you want to make an amulet of natural armor, you have to cast barkskin on the item once each day of the crafting. If you can't cast barkskin, you have to pay a druid to do it for you. You also incur a +5 to the DC, because you're not doing it yourself.
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions.
These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be
known by the item’s creator (although access through another
magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic
item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not
meet"
If the spell is provided by someone else, you are not bypassing the requirement. No +5 here.
So in that case, let's say you're a level 3 wizard, creating an amulet of natural armor +1. That's a 2,000 gp item, so it takes 2 days to make. You have the craft wondrous item feat. Your caster level is 3 times the amulet's bonus (a requirement for this item). You do not meet the actual caster level for this item, which is 5th. That's +5 to the DC. You do not know Barkskin. That's another +5 to the DC. You also can't make the item unless you get someone to cast Barkskin on it twice. You hire a druid, it's 60 gold per casting, or 120 gold on top of the 1,000 gp for the amulet itself, for a total of 1,120 gp. The spellcraft check for this item is 20. The base of 5, plus the item's caster level (5), plus five for not meeting being of sufficient caster level (you're 3rd, the item's required level is five), plus five for not knowing Barkskin. If you made this item when you were 5th level, the DC would be 15, because you now meet the item's caster level. You'd still have to pay the druid to cast Barkskin a couple times.
Caster level of the item is not a requirement. No +5 here. It sets the DC and the CL for effects when used.
You can make something without the spell. You do not need someone else to provide it at some cost. That is what the +5 DC represents.
... because you would satisfy both the item's caster level requirement (5th) and the requirement that your caster level be three times the bonus (6th).
There is only ever a single CL requirement. The highest CL of any needed CL for any requirement.
Your spellcraft check is:
5 (base)
+16 (Item's caster level)
+ 5 (you don't meet the caster level)
+ 5 (your name is not Alfred Hitchcock)
+ 5 (you are not neutral evil)
+ 5 (you can't cast Programmed Image)
+ 5 (you can't cast Phantasmal Killer)The total DC is 46.
The total cost of the item is 25,000, plus whatever it costs to have someone cast Programmed Image and Phantasmal Killer every day for 50 days. I'm not going to bother working it out, but it's a lot.
Pick one: +5 DC or hire caster. Not both.
/cevah
cevah, I am a bit confused on the reading of that.
From what it reads to me, is that if the spell is provided by someone else, you still don't have the requirement of the spell, and it is still a +5.
cevah, I am a bit confused on the reading of that.
From what it reads to me, is that if the spell is provided by someone else, you still don't have the requirement of the spell, and it is still a +5.
Could you explain how having the spell is the same as not having the spell?
Under the magic item creation, the line of the creator not having the spell.
Says that others might help for the creation, but if the creator doesn't have the spell, it is worth a +5.
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Cevah is exactly right.
Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.
The text in the CRB about having to know the spell requirements is poorly worded.
Hendelbolaf has it correct - refer to his post.
cevah, I am a bit confused on the reading of that.
From what it reads to me, is that if the spell is provided by someone else, you still don't have the requirement of the spell, and it is still a +5.
Consider:
If I have to add 5 to the DC to ignore a required spellvs.
If I have to add 5 to the DC to pay someone else to supply a spell
Why would I ever pay another caster?
That is why "(although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)" is in the text for crafting. Paying for the spell avoids the DC increase.
/cevah
It is that confusion, that me and my DM were debating.
As I stated earlier, he is going to rule 0 it, in that if you don't have the spell, you cannot make. If you have an allied caster, the creator doesn't know the spell, so it is worth a +5.
It will be annoying, and that will end up with a lot of unforseen consequences, but that is his choice. :)
He is not ignoring the feat prerequisite, it was the creation with an allied caster that we were debating.
As for nerfing the casting, his worry is that there will be two much magic develop.
Sometimes if someone reads a rule with a preconceived notion of how they want it to work then they mistake how the rule actually works. Their read through ignores all the facts while only looking for text which confirms that they were right. The text seems clear to me. Your GM is doing this. It is frustrating when someone in authority puts blinders on to avoid the truth but that's life I guess. Since your GM has made a final ruling then it is effectively now house ruled. If this house rule makes life difficult for your character I would retire my PC and make a new one with the new house rule in mind.
Spellcraft DCs are not hard to beat with a modest investment. Remember, you can Take-10 on Spellcraft.
Per this thread, an average 5th level crafting NPC wizard can reliably hit Spellcraft DC 35 with normal WBL, skill, Int, and one feat. With some more feats, he could get DC 40.
A Wizard NPC uses the heroic array so he has a high stat of 15. Add the Human +2 Bonus, and the 4th level stat point on top of this, and you can get 18 for a normal NPC. Lets see the skill build:
* Int Mod: 4
* Skill Ranks: 5
* Class Skill: 3
* Skill Focus(Spellcraft): 3
* Masterwork Tools: 2
* Apprentices' Aid Another: 2
* Armillary Amulet (2500gp): 5
* Headband +2 (4000): 1
Add this up: 4+5+3+3+2+2+5+1 = 25. Using Take 10, lets him hit a DC of 35.
The Wizard's Apprentice has:
* Int Mod: 2
* Skill Ranks: 1
* Class Skill: 3
* Skill Focus(Spellcraft): 3
Total is 9, with any roll he gets 10+ and automatically gives aid.
Even with GM house ruling an extra +5 DC, it should not significantly affect crafting. The limiter is not the DC but the time and money.
/cevah
EDIT: missed a word "not"!
He is not ignoring the feat prerequisite, it was the creation with an allied caster that we were debating.
Since it is +5 DC either way with your GM, tell him you will skip the prerequisite of a spell, and not pay a caster for a useless service. If he insists you do both, ask him why he allowed crafting in the first place?
/cevah
He is not ignoring the feat prerequisite, it was the creation with an allied caster that we were debating.Since it is +5 DC either way with your GM, tell him you will skip the prerequisite of a spell, and not pay a caster for a useless service. If he insists you do both, ask him why he allowed crafting in the first place?
/cevah
You make a good point, but (without having read the rules thoroughly) I don't see how you can create a magic item the creation of which imbues a spell into the item in some way without having access to the spell somehow. Do the rules really allow that?
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You make a good point, but (without having read the rules thoroughly) I don't see how you can create a magic item the creation of which imbues a spell into the item in some way without having access to the spell somehow. Do the rules really allow that?He is not ignoring the feat prerequisite, it was the creation with an allied caster that we were debating.Since it is +5 DC either way with your GM, tell him you will skip the prerequisite of a spell, and not pay a caster for a useless service. If he insists you do both, ask him why he allowed crafting in the first place?
/cevah
In the case of Wonderous Items, they most certainly do. Take for example anAmulet of Natural Armor crafted by a 5th level Wizard with Craft Wonderous Items. The Wizard wants the finished item to give a +2 bonus.
The crafting requirements for a +2 Amulet of Natural Armor would be,
- the Craft Wonderous Items feat
- 6th level caster (creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet’s bonus)
- the Barkskin spell
- 4000 gp
- 8 days
So long as the wizard has the time, the gold, the feat and can make a Spellcraft check with a DC of 21, the amulet is made. The DC breaks down as follows;
Base DC to craft an item: +5
Caster level required: +6
Wizard does not meet minimum caster level: +5
Wizard does not have Barkskin spell: +5
DC: 21
No spell needed.
The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Spell trigger = wands/staves
Spell completion = scrollsYep.
/cevah
In the case of Wonderous Items, they most certainly do. Take for example anAmulet of Natural Armor crafted by a 5th level Wizard with Craft Wonderous Items. The Wizard wants the finished item to give a +2 bonus.The crafting requirements for a +2 Amulet of Natural Armor would be,
- the Craft Wonderous Items feat
- 6th level caster (creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet’s bonus)
- the Barkskin spell
- 4000 gp
- 8 daysSo long as the wizard has the time, the gold, the feat and can make a Spellcraft check with a DC of 21, the amulet is made. The DC breaks down as follows;
Base DC to craft an item: +5
Caster level required: +6
Wizard does not meet minimum caster level: +5
Wizard does not have Barkskin spell: +5
DC: 21No spell needed.
Okay, fair enough. Doesn't make sense to me, but so be it. :-)
Okay, fair enough. Doesn't make sense to me, but so be it. :-)
In the case of Wonderous Items, they most certainly do. Take for example anAmulet of Natural Armor crafted by a 5th level Wizard with Craft Wonderous Items. The Wizard wants the finished item to give a +2 bonus.The crafting requirements for a +2 Amulet of Natural Armor would be,
- the Craft Wonderous Items feat
- 6th level caster (creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet’s bonus)
- the Barkskin spell
- 4000 gp
- 8 daysSo long as the wizard has the time, the gold, the feat and can make a Spellcraft check with a DC of 21, the amulet is made. The DC breaks down as follows;
Base DC to craft an item: +5
Caster level required: +6
Wizard does not meet minimum caster level: +5
Wizard does not have Barkskin spell: +5
DC: 21No spell needed.
The only items that absolutely require the spell be available at creation are spell trigger and spell completion items.
FWIW, my GM won't allow us to skip the prerequisite, but doesn't ask for the +5 for using someone else to provide the spell.
Honestly, I think your GM is missing a very important point:
Crafting in Pathfinder is already pretty severely nerfed in most circumstances, it does not need to be further weakened.
Crafting in Pathfinder is nerfed? In comparison to what? 3.5 required you to pay experience points to craft items. Pathfinder lets you make damn near any item you like so long as you have the gold and know how to overclock your Spellcraft modifier.