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How do you handle this:
There's a creature using stealth to stalk the party.
One of the PCs makes his perception roll, the others fail.
You roll initiative. The PC who spotted the creature goes first. He yells out on his turn "It's over there, you idiots!"
The creature that's using stealth hasn't gone yet, and who knows it may not break cover.
What can the other PCs do?
Do they get another perception check on their go?
Do they know what square it's in?
Do they automatically succeed on their perception?
....
Richard
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On the players turn, they may reroll perception with the assist other (+2) bonus. They do not know which square and they do not autosucceed.
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Considering that in order to use stealth a creature needs something to hide behind or some sort of concealment, it is, unless it is using Darkness and no one has Low-light or Darkvision, and just out of sight, that just because someone says that something is somewhere other people don't necessarily believe it or gain the knowledge that it is indeed there.
If he is going to spend his standard action pointing at the creature to "assist other" the other characters then they just get a +2 as Sarrah stated.
Considering the monster is stalking the party he might just skulk off to try again a little later. Or, now that he knows who is perceptive, collaborate with his allies to try and remove said character from the group.
It is even less noticeable with an assassin vine since it just looks like a vine.
The situation actually happened to me last week with an Assassin Vine using camouflage, however I thought I would make my question more general.
I'm not sure whether that makes a difference.
Richard
That's a bit tricky, because in that case it looks exactly like a normal plant. I wouldn't allow them to roll Perception again here.
However the heroes might still trust their companion, if he warns them, that vine over there is some muderous killer plant instead of a normal vine and they should stay the f!$% away from that thing.
I find myself in agreement with Sarrah. If the player is specific in calling out the location of the target such as. "It's right there! Behind that pillar!" then the others may even have cause to attack certain squares. But calling out to your friends still only confer a +2 assist bonus in my opinion. Naturally if more people then spot it, and start yelling, then there could be more assist going around, or it could become distracting, at the GM's discretion.
I'd allow one perception check for each character, each time it becomes their turn, or in between, if a situation calls for an opposed check, out of their turn.
Hope it helps.
-Nearyn
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My players argued auto-success - but then that's players for you :-)
My gut feeling is that you should know what square to look in, if it's within about 20-30', but then have a 50% miss chance. A standard action by the person pointing it out should then allow everyone else a second Perception check at +2, and this could continue round on round with the more people pointing it out the more +2 bonuses added.
That's just my opinion, though. Don't know what RAW or RAI might say about it and I'm interested in how others would play this.
Richard
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Auto-success is a bit much. But in this case, it's not so much a matter of seeing the vine, it's a matter of recognizing it as dangerous. Or everyone's looking down a hallway a the chest at the end. The sharpest-eyed character makes his perception and notices something about the chest that causes him to realize it's a mimic.
"It's a Mimic !"
"Really ? How can you tell ?"
"Look carefully at the lower right-hand side, where the corner reinforcement meets the edge detail."
(makes another roll, fails again)
"So ?"
"See how the gap seems to open and close like it's breathing ?"
(makes another roll, succeeds)
"Holy Mother of Treasure-hunters !, I see it !"
Or (fails for the Nth time)
"Sorry, my eyes aren't what they used to be. Gimme a minute to study my book and I'll cast detect life from here".
Another Situation: PC with darkvision, Wizard without. PC makes perception roll, wizard fails (because he's got a big minus for not being able to see that far in the dark. PC calls out "Range 60 feet bearing my two oclock request immediate fireball !" Wizard responds "On the way" and fireballs the target he hasn't perceived.
If you start yelling out, then of course battle is going to start immediately. If it is intelligent, then it must act upon what little element of surprise it still has. If it is unintelligent...well, yelling still seems like something that would trigger a predator (and if it can stealth, it probably has at least that much intelligence). And since they are still trying to process what you said when they get jumped, then they would still be quite surprised, no?
But if you keep it on the downlow (*whispers* "Don't look until I tell you to, but there is an assassin/ninja t-rex on our 6."), then I am kind of wandering whether they would be 'surprised' when fighting does start. Assuming that the creature doesn't attack immediately (sense motive check to see that you see it, and that you are telling others?), and a couple of turns go by before they turn around and look at the bushes, then the less perceptive party members should at least not be surprised when something actually does jump from the bushes, right?
I completely agree that this thing might as well be invisible until they succeed their own, aided perception checks though (at least for the purpose of attacking it before it tries to jump out the bushes)
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PC acts, yells. Does he attack the opponent ? (which would show in a very obvious way where/what the enemy is)
Enemy acts : if it attacks, then see above (and even more obvious, as attacking breaks stealth in most cases). If it tries to use stealth, it gives another opportunity to the other PCs to see it. If it does not try to use stealth, they see it automatically.
In other words, decide how you would rule it for a PC doing the same, then apply the exact same rules to NPCs.
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Another Situation: PC with darkvision, Wizard without. PC makes perception roll, wizard fails (because he's got a big minus for not being able to see that far in the dark. PC calls out "Range 60 feet bearing my two oclock request immediate fireball !" Wizard responds "On the way" and fireballs the target he hasn't perceived.
Not even missile launchers are that precise :P
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By the rules the perception check determines if you get to act in the surprise round. Once they fail they have to use a move action to get a retry, so they would have to wait until normal combat and use a perception check unless the enemy attacks in the surprise round which is what is likely to happen anyway.
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I don't know whether people play encounter distances, but when we roll perception vs stealth for an ambush the degree by which the best person succeeds determines the encounter distance.
In the surprise round, the creature may well not attack because it's not close enough. It might, however, close range ready to attack in the normal round whilst maintaining concealment.
It might, after all, be able to sneak attack.
So, surprise round:
PC that spots it - "It's over there, you idiots". Maybe even fires a shot at it.
Creature - moves a bit closer.
PCs that didn't spot it - do nothing.
Then first round of combat
PC that spots it might shoot again - "It's there! No, there! There! FFS!"
Creature moves even closer
PCs that didn't spot it: What do they know? What can they do?
Eventually, of course, the creature will attack the "blind" PCs and then everything will be revealed.
Richard
What can the other PCs do?
From the perception skill:
Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
Other than that, they can do whatever they want, however they won't get an action in the surprise round. They could however start buffing, readying actions, etc.
Do they get another perception check on their go? Richard
Sure, if they spend a move action doing so.
Do they know what square it's in?Do they automatically succeed on their perception?
....
Richard
No and No. You may grant them the aid another bonus as pointed out above, but remember its a standard action to aid another(from an rp perspective its more like saying "Its between the tree with yellow flowers and the bush crawling slowly in the shadows").
PCs that didn't spot it: What do they know? What can they do?
They know their friend is saying its over there and hes preparing for combat. They can take any actions they normally could, for instance, they could pull out a weapon with their standard action, and search (use perception) with their move.
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You must know something about where the person is hiding though, don't you think. Like to the left, right, behind those bushes ...
I'm probably breaking a forum rule posting a link to this youtube video but have a look about 50 seconds in and you'll see my point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifmRgQX82O4
Richard
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I also think it depends largely on what the background of this critter is hiding in:
Is the Assassin Vine hiding among a mass of other, normal vines? If so and the Assassin Vine remains still (depending on the result of another Stealth check), I don't think the PCs should auto-spot it. They would have to take the Move action to try (maybe even do so twice in their turn for the round).
Is the Assassin Vine simply hanging by itself against some bare rocks then it would be pretty easy for a highly perceptive party member to point out what they suspect is an enemy ("Hey, that vine just moved! Right there, the vine on the rock! It moved!!"). Depending on how the PC has been roleplayed, the others may just think he is pranking them, but they could see it - even if they failed their Perception check.
Again, adding distance & darkness to the mix would alter this by each PCs vision & Perception rolls.
Nifty
What Nifty (and others have) said.
You must know something about where the person is hiding though, don't you think. Like to the left, right, behind those bushes ...
I'm probably breaking a forum rule posting a link to this youtube video but have a look about 50 seconds in and you'll see my point.
Richard
You can always attack a square that's pointed out to you, even if you fail your perception check - if it's that's the case, it seems like you would be able to attack the area with a 50% miss chance... if you acted quickly enough.
I would tend to say that, as a result, the PCs are not necessarily flat-footed, unless the warning came "too late" - that is, it attacked immediately after the warning was made.
That seems a pretty reasonable way of sussing it out.
A warning shout, however, - unless there's some sort of special ability - doesn't automatically let the other players go or see anything.
It might provoke a decent move action attempt to perception and, successful or not, probably attempt to attack the square their more perceptive comrade was attacking.
As this is "Advice" instead of "Rules", I don't mind saying I'd definitely go with the "+2" on the check.
I disagree. I only got half without reading the clues, and that might be more than most people (I used to hunt for grasshoppers for a pet praying mantis, and that gives me an edge there) but found all pretty much immediately with the descriptions. If my buddy ranger says "there's a wolf hiding over there!" I think I could quickly spot it. Mind you, not being a real-life adventurer, I'd just get out of there :)
I'd suggest you just have a great perception check compared to most (even, if it were possible to translate such things into real-life approximations, many adventurers) - it makes sense that you would since, as you noted, you're used to hunting grasshoppers. :)
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Why do people focus on the Perception rules (1 move action to check again) and forget the Stealth rules, that grant your opponents a free Perception roll (vs your Stealth roll) when you try to stay hidden (ie, use Stealth).
And if you are not trying to stay hidden (ie, not using Stealth), then your opponents can perceive you.
Unless people try to argue that NOT using Stealth should make you stealthier
Why do people focus on the Perception rules (1 move action to check again) and forget the Stealth rules, that grant your opponents a free Perception roll (vs your Stealth roll) when you try to stay hidden (ie, use Stealth).
And if you are not trying to stay hidden (ie, not using Stealth), then your opponents can perceive you.
Unless people try to argue that NOT using Stealth should make you stealthier
The move action was noted after the free action was already given. Basically we are saying you get your free action to use perception, but if you fail and your buddy does not then you do not get another free check. You must wait until your turn to use a move action.
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Nope : the enemy, when its action comes in the surprise round, has to either maintain stealth (and this gives everybody another free Perception check, with a likely circumstance bonus) or stop being stealthy, in which case it becomes obvious.
No need to spend a move action on the next round, except for those characters who still could not perceive it :-)