Here's the deal:
I wanna be a "sneak thief" type character, and I wanna do it with a Bard.
1- I'm torn between core Bard and Sandman. I really like Slumbersong, Greater Stealspell, Spell Catching, Master of Deception, and Trap Sense. On the other hand, I really hate giving up Versatile Performance, and to a lesser degree, Inspire Courage.
(I will not play an Archeologist, even though it's the obvious "fit," because another character in the group is playing one.)
2- I also really wanna play a Halfling, but I really don't want to be an archer. There are just too many "necessary" feats. Obviously I want to be able to contribute in combat, but with the small size and Str penalty, am I just asking for trouble, or is it do-able?
Any feedback is incredibly welcome. :)
Dervish Dance is a good way to make Halflings good at melee combat. If there is another Bard with Inspire Courage, trading it for a different ability won't be a great loss, since they wouldn't stack anyway.
Losing Versatile Performance is painful, but with Finesse and Dervish Dance, you don't need Str to be effective in combat, so you can afford to raise Int a little bit, so that helps... Bards can get 8 skill points per level with just 12 Int.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, Bards are not proficient with Scimitars... I suppose you could ask your GM to trade proficiency with rapiers for proficiency with scimitars... Or spend a feat on it. Or let DD apply an weapon of your choice, rather than scimitars (they're the optimal choice anyway, so it's not like you're getting a free buff).
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Sandman is a solid archetype, but hardly necessary for the "sneak thief" type of character. Any bard that learns Vanish and Invisibility is already better at stealth than a rogue or ranger could ever be. Everything else is just icing on the cake.
If you want to be decent in combat as well, you could opt for a combat-based archetype and rely on spells for stealth (which will be more than enough), or go with the aforementioned scimitar option. Bards don't have to concern themselves too much with feats and specific spells to be contribute, so once again, it's all the flavor of icing you prefer.
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I'd do this as just a straight Bard with traits to grab any necessary skills that aren't Class already. Should be very doable for everything but magical traps...and you have an Archaeologist for those.
For combat, just grab Weapon Finesse, Arcane Strike, and maybe Piranha Strike (if you're willing to go Short Sword instead of rapier or your GM lets it work with rapiers) and that plus buffs should hold you until you get an Agile Weapon. It's not as good as archery, but it's serviceable.
Dawnflower Dervish is also workable mechanically...but I think the flavor is off for a sneak-thief.
You might want to consider going Sound Striker, weird words can give you offense at level 6 and focusing on face skills and support magic will make most groups want you around even if you have virtually no DPR yourself.
I see the skills, in addition to the spells, as a necessary investment.
1 Min/level is great when you need a "get outta jail free" card (like when you get caught in the act), but it's no good for pulling off an actual burglary.
Also, Invisibility/Vanish can be spotted with the right magic and does nothing to muffle sound, etc. :)
But, my GM is most gracious and benevolent, so my problems are solved: I can swap Rapier for Scimitar for Dervish Dance, and I can take Sandman without swapping out Versatile Performance for Sneakspell.
Thanks everyone. :)
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Dawnflower Dervish is also workable mechanically...but I think the flavor is off for a sneak-thief.You can easily reflavor as desired.
There is no real "locked-in" flavor restrictions for classes.
That's true to some degree...but Dervish Dance and the use of a scimitar in general has a very specific flavor, and involves carrying a fairly overt and martial weapon, which seems almost as off as having a Half-Orc sneak-thief use a Greataxe.
Now I'm not saying you can't be sneaky with either weapon...but "sneak-thief" is a flavor-heavy description with a certain set of weapons thematically tied to it, and given that he's wanting to avoid archery (the best option mechanically), I'm guessing that weapon-appropriateness to the concept matters to him.
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I see the skills, in addition to the spells, as a necessary investment.
1 Min/level is great when you need a "get outta jail free" card (like when you get caught in the act), but it's no good for pulling off an actual burglary.
Also, Invisibility/Vanish does nothing to muffle sound, etc. :)But, my GM is most gracious and benevolent, so my problems are solved: I can swap Rapier for Scimitar for Dervish Dance, and I can take Sandman without swapping out Versatile Performance for Sneakspell.
Thanks everyone. :)
Oh, cool. That solves just about everything then. Nice. :)
So I totally forgot Agile was even a thing. Definitely preferable to shenanigans in order to get Dervish Dance! Thanks DMW.
Personally... I don't like depending on very specific (and relatively rare) weapon enhancements such as Agile, and I don't see DD as any more "specifically flavored" than any other feat, especially if the GM allows you to pick which weapon you want to apply it to, but that's me.
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Personally... I don't like depending on very specific (and relatively rare) weapon enhancements such as Agile, and I don't see DD as any more "specifically flavored" than any other feat, especially if the GM allows you to pick which weapon you want to apply it to, but that's me.
Agile isn't that rare, IMO. Maybe in an AP where you never get to shop and none of the other PCs (or you) have Crafting Feats. 8k items aren't that hard to get at any medium-large population center.
And I agree with you that Dervish Dance isn't very flavor-heavy if you can apply it to any finesse weapon (which is how I run it in my games, btw)...I was referring to specifically if it was limited to scimitar.
Agile isn't that rare, IMO. Maybe in an AP where you never get to shop and none of the other PCs (or you) have Crafting Feats. 8k items aren't that hard to get at any medium-large population center.
And I agree with you that Dervish Dance isn't very flavor-heavy if you can apply it to any finesse weapon (which is how I run it in my games, btw)...I was referring to specifically if it was limited to scimitar.
Even then, I don't see DD as any more specifically-flavored than, say, Weapon Focus: Scimitar. It's true it was made to allow players to create characters of an specific variety, but the feat itself has no attached fluff. Flavor is what you make of it, not what the book says.
I admit the rarity of Agile varies from campaign to campaign (like everything else), but it's certainly not something you see in most treasures, since it's very character-specific.
Depending on a specific enhancement has other drawbacks...
1: How do you fare until you get that item? A +1 Agile weapon costs over 8000gp. That can only be realistically afforded by 6th level. Maybe.
2: Price & Replacement. If you have DD and lose your scimitar, you can find other scimitar much more easily than you can find another agile weapon. Your back up weapon is a lot cheaper if you don't need an extra enhancement to make it work (Hell, a Bard with DD could make do with a masterwork backup scimitar and use Arcane Strike to make it magic!). Each extra enhancement costs progressively more. You could have a +3 weapon, but instead, you got a +2 Agile weapon. And you better hope it's not stolen, sundered or lost, because you probably couldn't afford a backup.
That's just my 2 cents.
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Depending on a specific enhancement has other drawbacks...
1: How do you fare until you get that item? A +1 Agile weapon costs over 8000gp. That can only be realistically afforded by 6th level. Maybe.
2: Price & Replacement. If you have DD and lose your scimitar, you can find other scimitar much more easily than you can find another agile weapon. Your back up weapon is a lot cheaper if you don't need an extra enhancement to make it work (Hell, a Bard with DD could make do with a masterwork backup scimitar and use Arcane Strike to make it magic!). Each extra enhancement costs progressively more. You could have a +3 weapon, but instead, you got a +2 Agile weapon. And you better hope it's not stolen, sundered or lost, because you probably couldn't afford a backup.That's just my 2 cents.
True, but feats are generally more valuable than gold. It depends on your campaign, clearly, but imo the extra cost of agile and the risk of having your weapon stolen/sundered is worth not having to take another feat. If you were playing a Dawnflower Dervish and got Dervish Dance at first level as a bonus feat it's no question. Otherwise, Agile becomes more attractive.
True, but feats are generally more valuable than gold. It depends on your campaign, clearly, but imo the extra cost of agile and the risk of having your weapon stolen/sundered is worth not having to take another feat. If you were playing a Dawnflower Dervish and got Dervish Dance at first level as a bonus feat it's no question. Otherwise, Agile becomes more attractive.
I dunno... While it's true that a feat is usually worth more than gold, this is a difference of a single feat (You still need Weapon Finesse in order benefit to from the Agile enhancement) for never having to worry about being "permanently" disarmed. I usually carry a few weapons (at very least, 1 main, 1 backup and 1 bow, if proficient with them), but rarely push the backup weapon's enhancement beyond +1 before 12th level or so, with Arcane Strike, it's even possible to save money and use masterwork weapons as emergency backup.
Besides, at least for me, it feels better to know it's part of my character's ability, rather than his gear's.
I'm hoping that there will be more Dex to Damage options in the release version of the ACG. Swashbuckler really needs it, and it was hinted at in the playtest formus.
Hopefully it won't require Combat Expertise or other equally crappy feats...
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Even then, I don't see DD as any more specifically-flavored than, say, Weapon Focus: Scimitar. It's true it was made to allow players to create characters of an specific variety, but the feat itself has no attached fluff. Flavor is what you make of it, not what the book says.
It's not. But using a scimitar has a pretty specific flavor, and the Feat necessitates that by default.
I admit the rarity of Agile varies from campaign to campaign (like everything else), but it's certainly not something you see in most treasures, since it's very character-specific.
True, but you should be able to acquire it one way or another. Heck, Craft Magic Arms and Armor is in many ways a better Feat to take than Dervish Dance and then you can just make it yourself.
Depending on a specific enhancement has other drawbacks...
1: How do you fare until you get that item? A +1 Agile weapon costs over 8000gp. That can only be realistically afforded by 6th level. Maybe.
True...but as I said, a Bard can make do with Inspire Courage, Arcane Strike and maybe Piranha Strike until then. It's not as much damage, but it is workable.
2: Price & Replacement. If you have DD and lose your scimitar, you can find other scimitar much more easily than you can find another agile weapon.
Actually...probably not. Well, not a magical one anyway. Most APs aren't set places with a lot of scimitars and don't have them in the treasure, which means going to town to buy them...just like an Agile weapon. The same is true in any setting that's mostly European-themed.
Your back up weapon is a lot cheaper if you don't need an extra enhancement to make it work (Hell, a Bard with DD could make do with a masterwork backup scimitar and use Arcane Strike to make it magic!). Each extra enhancement costs progressively more. You could have a +3 weapon, but instead, you got a +2 Agile weapon. And you better hope it's not stolen, sundered or lost, because you probably couldn't afford a backup.
This is legitimate...except that, again, Craft Magic Arms and Armor solves all these problems at least as well as (and in some ways better than) Dervish Dance does. As does having someone in your party with said Feat.
The only advantage Dervish Dance really has is between 1st (if Dervish Dancer) or 3rd (if not) and 5th or 6th (when you get the Agile weapon).
You could really call your scimitar anything and just give it the stats of a scimitar. The REAL problem is that the Dawnflower Dervish has an arbitrary restriction in that you have to be a worshipper of Sarenrae. That's Paladin-levels of game-enforced flavor. Which is gross.
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I'd recommend creating a bard who sees 'stealing' as a form of art. Take the Sandman archetype. Take Improved Steal and Improved Disarm.
Take Improved Dirty Trick as well. Your Sandman abilities will help you be a great thief-ish bard with trapfinding and disabling and you can just about literally rob your enemies of their loot mid-combat. Even if you can't steal their loot mid-combat, you can always steal it while they're asleep (slumber song)
You can:
Steal items and weapons from enemies mid combat
Steal their spells (Spellsteal)
Steal their breath (literally with the Steal Breath lvl2 spell)
You can use Dirty Trick maneuvers to blind your enemies... then sneak attack them!
You can even steal stuff from a distance with a whip (you are proficient!) albeit at a -4 penalty.
You can consider going Arcane Trickster after lvl10 without multiclassing if you can afford missing out on greater stealspell (i'd wait until level 15 before I went AT personally)
I have to admit that halflings have little strength and are not great with combat maneuvers so if this build appeals you might want to consider a medium sized race such as human or half-elf.
In regards to Combat Maneuvers: The FAQ explains the relationship between Combat Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse with regards to Core Book examples only.
Which Combat Maneuvers from later sources (Steal, for example) also work with Weapon Finesse?
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Paizo's official response is that if you can convince a GM you're using your weapon for that combat maneuver then it counts. For example, if you use your sword to cut a character's belt and make his pants fall down that qualifies as a Dirty Trick that uses your sword's bonuses. It's also classic humor.
I think you'd have a hard time finding justifications for Steal, though. My first thought would be a whip using either the trait or the feat that allows it to function like a grappling hook. Then you could snag items and get your whip's bonuses.
Steal requires a free hand holding nothing. Aren't "hands" always considered light weapons and therefore, finessable? ;)
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Hmm...some obvious missmatch in concept, as while bards have Stealth as a class skill, they're most optimal when keeping their mouth open.Here's the deal:
I wanna be a "sneak thief" type character, and I wanna do it with a Bard.
1- I'm torn between core Bard and Sandman.
2- I also really wanna play a Halfling, but I really don't want to be an archer. There are just too many "necessary" feats.
Play a CRB bard as a halfling. Sure: you'll have a bow or crossbow...but you're not going to spend any feats on it.
E.g.,
STR-10
DEX+17 (15,14,12,12,12,12 20pt array)
CON:12
INT:12
WIS:12
CHA+14
01 cavalier[Emissary(Mounted Combat)], Weapon Finesse
02 bard1 ...
02 bard2 FEAT ...etc
-- Idea here is that the cavalier level gives you martial weapon and medium armor proficiencies (so no annoyances wearing mithril breastplate as a bard), a feat useful for keeping free mounts alive, and RP "crunch" as an emissary is certainly a "face" roll that a bard would excel at.
Another highly synergistic route is two levels of paladin into a bard mix (that build would use a 15,14,14,14,12,07 20pt array with the 7 in wisdom).
Hmm...some obvious missmatch in concept, as while bards have Stealth as a class skill, they're most optimal when keeping their mouth open.Here's the deal:
I wanna be a "sneak thief" type character, and I wanna do it with a Bard.
How is it a mismatch? Their skill list and spell options are absolutely amazing for it. Bardic Performance is the only thing that doesn't "fit."
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How is it a mismatch?
As a mithral chainshirt-wearing halfling bard, putting one single rank in Stealth means you're looking at something like....
+4 (rank in class skill)
+4 (halfling bonus)
+6 (armor check penalty differential)
+3 (probable dexterity bonus difference)
= +17 better than the party tank stamping around in plate armor.
So, it's is easy to be sneakier than anyone who's not a professional (halfling) rogue.
As long as you're keeping your mouth shut and not Inspiring Courage.
Bardic Performance is the only thing that doesn't "fit."
A "mismatch in concept", one might say. ;-)
How is it a mismatch?As a mithral chainshirt-wearing halfling bard, putting one single rank in Stealth means you're looking at something like....
+4 (rank in class skill)
+4 (halfling bonus)
+6 (armor check penalty differential)
+3 (probable dexterity bonus difference)= +17 better than the party tank stamping around in plate armor.
So, it's is easy to be sneakier than anyone who's not a professional (halfling) rogue.
As long as you're keeping your mouth shut and not Inspiring Courage.
Bardic Performance is the only thing that doesn't "fit."A "mismatch in concept", one might say. ;-)
Pshh. Perform(Interpretive Dance) works just fine.
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Pshh. Perform(Interpretive Dance) works just fine.How is it a mismatch?As a mithral chainshirt-wearing halfling bard, putting one single rank in Stealth means you're looking at something like....
+4 (rank in class skill)
+4 (halfling bonus)
+6 (armor check penalty differential)
+3 (probable dexterity bonus difference)= +17 better than the party tank stamping around in plate armor.
So, it's is easy to be sneakier than anyone who's not a professional (halfling) rogue.
As long as you're keeping your mouth shut and not Inspiring Courage.
Bardic Performance is the only thing that doesn't "fit."A "mismatch in concept", one might say. ;-)
This. Perform (Dance) or any other non-verbal Performance works fine, even if you lack ranks in them.
Pshh. Perform(Interpretive Dance) works just fine.How is it a mismatch?As a mithral chainshirt-wearing halfling bard, putting one single rank in Stealth means you're looking at something like....
+4 (rank in class skill)
+4 (halfling bonus)
+6 (armor check penalty differential)
+3 (probable dexterity bonus difference)= +17 better than the party tank stamping around in plate armor.
So, it's is easy to be sneakier than anyone who's not a professional (halfling) rogue.
As long as you're keeping your mouth shut and not Inspiring Courage.
Bardic Performance is the only thing that doesn't "fit."A "mismatch in concept", one might say. ;-)
can't help but imagine the Cougar Town confidence dance right before performing any skill.
What about the daredevil archetype?
I think Daredevil would be good for the "flashy" battlefield controller/combat maneuver Bard. Not as much for the skulky-thief Bard.
Maybe that's just me though.
Fair enough. Though it makes a good second story man that can still contribute to combat via maneuvers. Cat burglar by night, swashbuckler by day. Also note that you can combine it with sound striker.
How about the Lionblade PrC?
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As long as you're keeping your mouth shut and not Inspiring Courage.Pshh. Perform(Interpretive Dance) works just fine.Bardic Performance is the only thing that doesn't "fit."A "mismatch in concept", one might say. ;-)
So now you're dancing while trying to be sneaky? Also, your allies have to see you (if they can't hear you) to be inspired (which implies you can't be so sneaky they can't spot you).
"To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the bard’s performance...."
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I wanna be a "sneak thief" type character, and I wanna do it with a Bard.
I found this trick a long time ago. It dose take some planning to pull it off.
Trait : Vagabond Child : Disable Device as a class skill +1 trait bonus.
Bard Spell Level 2 : Aram Zey's Focus : If you don’t have the trapfinding class ability, this spell grants you the trapfinding ability of a rogue of half your character level.
Now any bard can handle magic traps at level 4.
As for sneak thief. Your a bard you can be sneaky. However your a bard so it dose not benefit you as much. You might want to think more on making a spy type character with perform act (Disguise/Bluff).
I'm not a big fan of most of the bard archetypes. Due to the versatility of the basic bard. The only feats I will suggest you take, are Lingering Performance, and Discordant Voice. If your making a Dex base bard weapon finesse is a must have. You might want to look at weapon enhancements that bypass DR over Agile weapon enchantment. As weapons that bypass DR will do more damage then ones that don't. Even with the extra damage from Dex over Str. Just a suggestion.
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Haven't read the whole thread, but using ctrl+f no one seems to have mentioned one of my favorite traits for Halflings:
You see nothing wrong with letting others achieve greatness so long as the job gets done.
Benefit: Whenever you successfully perform an aid another action, you grant your ally a +4 bonus instead of the normal +2.
With this, as long as you can hit a 10, you can dole out +4s to your allies! As a bard, you can even do it from 15 ft away with a whip.
If you get the Gloves of Arcane Striking, your Aid Another bonus even scales with your Arcane Strike bonus.
And if you don't have anything else to do with your feats, you can get Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard to give +4 (or more) AC to those adjacent to you.
Now go and be a team player!
Haven't read the whole thread, but using ctrl+f no one seems to have mentioned one of my favorite traits for Halflings:
You see nothing wrong with letting others achieve greatness so long as the job gets done.
Benefit: Whenever you successfully perform an aid another action, you grant your ally a +4 bonus instead of the normal +2.
With this, as long as you can hit a 10, you can dole out +4s to your allies! As a bard, you can even do it from 15 ft away with a whip.
If you get the Gloves of Arcane Striking, your Aid Another bonus even scales with your Arcane Strike bonus.
And if you don't have anything else to do with your feats, you can get Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard to give +4 (or more) AC to those adjacent to you.
Now go and be a team player!
Have one of you're allies be a halfling opportunist for additional fun.