|
Hi... My wizard just met a terrible end from the plane of positive energy thanks to a prismatic spray. So it's new char time. I recently have been reading the dwarves of golarion and want so badly to get to it. I also realized I HATE playing a wizard I understand they are the optimal casters but I'm a sorc kinda player. That being said I have the desire to build a ranged dwarf and need some help campaign specifics are below I am not opposed to any ideas just brainstorming really and I'm sick with stomach flu so the internet is my friend. Any help is great thanks in advance
Campaign: rise of runelords anniversary ed.
Current level : 14
Current party: tiefling knife master rogue LN
Human hospitaller paladin of iomedae LG
Strix ranger two weapon fighter (crit build) CN
Dwarf inquisitor of gorum greatsword CG
Human void sorc NG
(On again off again) tengu rogue two weap flanker CN
Outlawed classes:alchemist
Gunslinger
Magus
Monk
Summoner
No 3.5 materials, all paizo are fair game no 3rd party
Point buy: 20
Why in the world would monks be outlawed? My only real suggestion was Zen Archer Monk. Dwarfs are an excellent race for that class. Otherwise, I suppose there is the fighter with Archer archetype or the Paladin Divine Hunter. Those are the next best archers that I'm aware of. Fighter is probably less MAD. I've heard that Inquisitor can be a decent archer, but they usually take a ZAM dip and you already have one.
|
|
Yeah base monks are fine but zen archer is out, so I figured it was easier to just say the class is not an option. I'm starting to look at witch guard ranger as a possibility. I'm kinda on the fence with it, a fighter, pally or an inquisitor and go ranged AoO line as the rogues both feint...a lot the inquisitor now usually maxes his 4 AoO's per round
Thanks so far though
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You DM is allow a freaking Strix but not a Zen Archer? At will flight is fine but not a useful monk that is pretty much written to be the best option for a dwarf ranged character. sigh.
If you are really set on a Dwarf that uses ranged, I would go one of two routes: either an inquisitor or a Crossboman fighter. Inquisirot is the better option, but you already have a dwarf inquisitor in the party.
If you go crossbowman, go crossboman fighter 7/Sniper rogue x. Improved Deadshot makes every attack do Sneak Attack damage. Take the vital strike tree and use readied actions to attack spellcasters or movement. You only do one attack per round, but it really hits hard.
|
|
Bloody brilliant @Imbicatus. That is a great combo and I have always thought dwarfs should be with crossbows as it just feels weird to think of them using "elf" weapons. Might be a bit narrow minded of me but just how I see it. I will begin specing one out and post when I get a working model. If anyone else has any ideas please do feel free to chime in this is great. Usually I have only my own head and forum surfing to brainstorm with its nice to have actual input from others who have read more of the books than I have.
|
|
Taarboran and his hand held scorpion.
Crossbowman Fighter 7/Sniper Rogue 7
HP= 30+4d10+7d8
Str: 10 0
Dex: 20 5
Con: 13 1
Int: 14 2
Wis: 14 2
Cha: 7 -2
Feats:
(F)1:Point Blank BAB 1
(F)FB: Precise Shot BAB 2
(F)3: Rapid Reload (Heavy Crossbow) BAB 3
(F)FB: Deadly Aim BAB 4
(F)5: Weapon Focus (Heavy Crossbow)BAB 5
(F)FB: Vital Strike BAB 6
(F)7: Weapon Spec (Heavy Crossbow)BAB 7
(R)9: Focused Shot BAB 8
(R)RT: Bleeding Strike BAB 8
(R)11: Improved Critical (Heavy Crossbow)BAB 10
(R)RT: Sniper's Eye BAB 10
(R)13: Improved Vital Strike BAB 11
(R)RT: Combat Trick [Improved Precise Shot] BAB 11
Traits:?/Defensive Strategist
Quick and dirty damage analyzing
+5 heavy crossbow +21 vs FF AC
3d10+4d6sa+18+4 bleed avg dmg 48.5 +4 bleed crit on 17/2
Also if I got sniper goggles would I need the sniper arch? I would like other options is not as all it gives is halving range penalties, and increasing sneak range(sniper goggles makes this mute). Perhaps Sanctified rogue to match the trait "yay Torag"
Other question Does Focused shot work with vital strike I know its funny in its wording.
Last 48.5 avg damage at 14 is nothing to snuff at but not the wow factor I was hoping for. I know crossbows are sub optimal but am I missing something besides gear like duelist gloves (do they work for this), bracers of archery, gravity bow...so forth and so on.
One level of Inquisitor is okay if you want to be the face-man who dumped Cha (take the Conversion Inquisition), but otherwise go straight Zen Archer + Qinggong Monk. Yes they can be combined, since Qinggong has the unique property of being able to cherry-pick each class feature replacement. You just can't replace anything that has already been replaced by Zen Archer.
I've seen a few fighter multiclasses that work really well for ranged combat. The best being 4 Fighter (Crossbowman)/the rest Ranger. Just sit and wait, with readied actions you can vital strike people into oblivion.
I've seen a few fighter multiclasses that work really well for ranged combat. The best being 4 Fighter (Crossbowman)/the rest Ranger. Just sit and wait, with readied actions you can vital strike people into oblivion.
Your damage would be atrocious, since you're voluntarily locking yourself out of full attacks. A single attack, even with Vital Strike and half your Dex to damage, won't hold a candle to all the attacks you'd get from Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Haste. Never mind the other iteratives. This is on top of not getting Strength to Damage like you would with a composite Longbow - And that bonus applies to every attack you make.
Right but with focused shot on a readied action you can add your int mod (which you can have one because you don't need str), half your dex mod, weapon spec, and favored enemy (spells can make any enemy your favored enemy). At lvl 9 you should be able to get a keen heavy crossbow so let's assume +1 keen heavy crossbow. With vital strike it adds up to 2d10+int mod+half dex mod+1+favored enemy. Double it all up on a 17-20 crit. The damage isn't low for a single shot, but this is more of a sniper build of sit and wait.
So you can have your Int mod too, but how much damage does that add? Chances are, any martial character (even one that doesn't need Strength) won't have that high an Int.
The Crossbow has the wider crit range, but the full attacking longbow will still crit more often because it's taking three times as many shots at full BAB (four with Rapid Shot, albeit at -2 to all), and each subsequent iterative is still a chance to get lucky. It crits at the same x3 multiplier as a Crossbow user with Bracers of Falcon's Aim, and will activate on-crit effects more often.
As for Weapon Specialization + Favored Enemy, the Fighter 4 / Ranger X can have it with a Longbow too. And again, it applies on every shot.
Half the reason you go ranged in the first place is so you can consistently get full attacks away. The damage isn't low for a single shot, but I'm not comparing them shot for shot, I'm comparing them round by round.
This isn't even taking into account the general finicky-ness of readied attacks in practice.
At the same time while you have a full attack, fighter 4/ranger x also has enough feats to get crossbow mastery to get a full attack. The only difference is that the crossbow user can't get a strength mod. It also has a fun readied action ability. On average a ranged character with str and a bow will be dealing an addition 8-15 damage per round at lvl 9, maybe more if you have a strength rated bow. (8 for +2 str, 15 for +3 str) But only if everything hits. A dwarf like this I can see 16 dex, 14 int, 16 con (14 base), 12 wisdom, then using level buffs for dexterity, and money for both dex and int. While the standard full action with a bow might deal more damage on paper, we have no idea how his gm sets up encounters, or if every encounter is a flat open area. Going 4 fighter/6 ranger/3 sniper with a crossbow is very fun and from my experiences has been very effective. I've seen the same person (who I saw playing the figher/ranger/rogue mix) play a straight archery ranger and he said the fighter/ranger/rogue was a bit more fun to play as it had more options available.
|
|
My original idea was to help supplement the only "caster" in our party by making a ranger or fighter, and having them use dispelling, or spell storing arrows to "cast". He was going to bluff everyone to think he was an arcane archer and rock a hawk-eye style efficent quiver. He would say mumbo jumbo in a really rare language (necril or aklo or something akin) as he pulled the arrow with a spell on it. Eventually he would be found out and it could become somewhat of a joke that everyone knows but him. Since those enhancements are only for melee now is ZAM quiggong the best way?
Just something I noticed that others may not have noticed. Your bracers of archers are not for crossbows:
These wristbands look like normal protective wear. The bracers empower the wearer to use any bow (not including crossbows) as if she were proficient in its use. If she already has proficiency with any type of bow, she gains a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls and a +1 competence bonus on damage rolls whenever using that type of bow. Both bracers must be worn for the magic to be effective.
It looks like you are looking at a different type of character so maybe it doesn't matter.
|
|
Just something I noticed that others may not have noticed. Your bracers of archers are not for crossbows:
It looks like you are looking at a different type of character so maybe it doesn't matter.
These wristbands look like normal protective wear. The bracers empower the wearer to use any bow (not including crossbows) as if she were proficient in its use. If she already has proficiency with any type of bow, she gains a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls and a +1 competence bonus on damage rolls whenever using that type of bow. Both bracers must be worn for the magic to be effective.
I totally missed that... Even more crap xbows get to look at from the outside like the kids on the christmas story wanting a red rider. Can xbows get any love?
|
|
I totally missed that... Even more crap xbows get to look at from the outside like the kids on the christmas story wanting a red rider. Can xbows get any love?Just something I noticed that others may not have noticed. Your bracers of archers are not for crossbows:
It looks like you are looking at a different type of character so maybe it doesn't matter.
These wristbands look like normal protective wear. The bracers empower the wearer to use any bow (not including crossbows) as if she were proficient in its use. If she already has proficiency with any type of bow, she gains a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls and a +1 competence bonus on damage rolls whenever using that type of bow. Both bracers must be worn for the magic to be effective.
In other games, yes. Pathfinder/d20 kills them because of the simple weapon straightjacket. Since this isn't PFS, Use Bracers of the Falcon instead. They give a +1 competence bonus to attack, +3 bonus to perception, and change the crit profile to 19-20/x3.
I totally missed that... Even more crap xbows get to look at from the outside like the kids on the christmas story wanting a red rider. Can xbows get any love?Just something I noticed that others may not have noticed. Your bracers of archers are not for crossbows:
It looks like you are looking at a different type of character so maybe it doesn't matter.
These wristbands look like normal protective wear. The bracers empower the wearer to use any bow (not including crossbows) as if she were proficient in its use. If she already has proficiency with any type of bow, she gains a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls and a +1 competence bonus on damage rolls whenever using that type of bow. Both bracers must be worn for the magic to be effective.
If you're allowed to do a Zen Archer as a dwarf, I would take at least 6 levels of ZA/Qinggong monk. If you can get a monk's robe*, take 7 levels. For your level 6 bonus feat, take Improved Precise Shot. Take Barkskin as one of your ki powers.
After that, you can have a lot of flexibility depending on what you want the character to do. Switch to ranger or druid if you want to be wilderness-y, fighter if you want to be soldiery, inquisitor or cleric if you want to be holy, rogue or ninja if you want to be sneaky...
Some nice synergies:
Ninja will let you combine your ki pools, so your ninja ki pool will be wisdom-based instead of charisma-based, and there are some nice ranged ninja ki powers.
ZA 7/Fighter (weapon master) 3 gets you weapon training by level 10, so you can pick up Gloves of Dueling for +3 to hit and damage, and it just goes up from there. You'll have all the "required" feats from ZA, so you can go nuts with your fighter feats. Damage-wise, this is probably your best option.
ZA 6/Ranger 4 gives you Gravity Bow, Lead Blades, and Aspect of the Falcon (if Bracers of Falcon's Aim are not available), and combat styles will let you ignore Dex prerequisites for your archery feats. (Oddly, you will probably want to take Crossbow style instead of Archery, because ranged feats that came out after the Core rulebook aren't on the Archery bonus feat list.)
ZA/Cleric of Trudd (in the Dawrven pantheon--Torag also works, but you have a burn a spell for Propitiation each day) gets you access to the Mighty Strength spell (level 4), which is like Bull's Strength except you get a +8 bonus instead of +4.
General thoughts:
Max your Wis first, then your strength. You can usually ignore your Dex, because you'll be using your Wis to shoot with. If you just stick with ZA all the way up, you won't face any Dex prerequisites for your archery feats.
Remember that Gravity Bow is a personal spell: no potions available and no one can cast it on you. A one level ranger or wizard dip lets you use a wand of it, though, or you can UMD.
If you're using the ZA "make my arrows do as much as my unarmed strikes" power, this ability will not stack with Gravity Bow (because you are replacing your bow damage with that of your unarmed strike). However, it will stack with Lead Blades, which is also a Ranger spell. With 7 levels of ZA, a monk's robe, and Lead Blades, your normal unarmed strike damage is 3d6 (drop enlarge person for 4d6 if you want), then spent a ki point to make your arrows do the same damage as your unarmed strike without needing to switch out to large arrows. If you've picked up Rapid Shot and Manyshot at that point, use those feats instead of flurrying, so you can save your ki point from the extra attack and still throw out the same number of arrows per round.
And get weapon blanches...
|
|
The idea with defensive strategist was to also take the thug arch as the sicked condition debuffing isn't limited to melee sneaks, and it gives up uncanny dodge. Glory of old is nice but I thought of using Accelerated Drinker to allow potions to get chugged to buff myself at the beginning as the rest of my move actions besides free 5's will be used reloading. Also I missed a fighter bonus feat at 1st level which then after shifting allowed for Devastating strike to get worked in.
I am however working hard to convince a ZAM into the table.
Taarboran and his hand held scorpion.
Crossbowman Fighter 7/Sniper Rogue 7
HP= 30+4d10+7d8
Str: 10 0
Dex: 20 5
Con: 13 1
Int: 14 2
Wis: 14 2
Cha: 7 -2Feats:
(F)1:Point Blank BAB 1
(F)FB: Precise Shot BAB 2
(F)3: Rapid Reload (Heavy Crossbow) BAB 3
(F)FB: Deadly Aim BAB 4
(F)5: Weapon Focus (Heavy Crossbow)BAB 5
(F)FB: Vital Strike BAB 6
(F)7: Weapon Spec (Heavy Crossbow)BAB 7
(R)9: Focused Shot BAB 8
(R)RT: Bleeding Strike BAB 8
(R)11: Improved Critical (Heavy Crossbow)BAB 10
(R)RT: Sniper's Eye BAB 10
(R)13: Improved Vital Strike BAB 11
(R)RT: Combat Trick [Improved Precise Shot] BAB 11Traits:?/Defensive Strategist
I'm kind of curious as to why you went with the Vital Strike tree instead of Crossbow Mastery (reload as a free action, don't provoke in melee). Damage-wise, additional attacks beat out Vital Strike unless you have barbarian levels and take Furious Finish (end rage to do max damage on your vital strike dice). Is there a character reason for it? (If you're planning to use a double crossbow, you'd still want Crossbow Master so you can reload both bolts as a move action.)
Also, if you have rogue levels, you should consider taking Shadow Strike so you can still do sneak attack damage against targets with concealment. (Improved Precise Shot specifically ignores the "miss chance" from concealment: it won't let you do sneak attack damage also unless your GM is nice or you get Sniper's Goggles.
If your GM won't let you do Zen Archer, you might find out if you could apply Manyshot to a crossbow. (It calls out "bow" and "arrows" but it doesn't have the usual "NO CROSSBOWS!" line in there.) I mean, if your GM is forbidding one of the best, most versatile archer builds in the game, the least he could do is let you get one extra arrow each round... :-)
|
|
lolz yeah, The reason for single action was for the 7th level ability that says if you attack as a readied action the target is denied its dex, so since you get only 1 shot the vital strike chain actually works here
Improved Deadshot (Ex): At 7th level, when a crossbowman attacks with a crossbow as a readied action, his target is denied its Dexterity bonus to its AC. This ability replaces armor training 2
Why would you not stick it out with the ZAM? Am I missing something? Also Another Idea was to incorporate more spell casting by doing a Sorc (I hate wizards) and go with the wild blooded version of celestial to cast with wis. Then perhaps Arcane archer or eldritch knight?
Yes, Empyreal Sorcerer goes great with the ZAM. You get two spells so Gravity Bow is a given. Then, depending one what you are lacking, you could either choose Magic Weapon to make up for the BAB you lost with the Sorcerer class or you could take Mage Armor, or if you'd rather be practical, you could take Abundant Ammunition. That could be handy if your DM is a stickler for ammo consumption.
There are lots of different dips you could take for this guy. Inquisitor, Divine Hunter Paladin, Archer Fighter, Cleric. A lot of dips seem to keep this guy SAD, but in reality, he is still going to be pretty MAD. STR is still important to add damage to your bow. DEX is important until you get to ZAM 3 and still for your AC and Initiative. Come people don't mind dumping CON and INT, but I like to have at least some bonus HP and skill points. CHA is about the only dump stat the ZAM has and then if you dip into Divine Hunter you still need it.
I wasn't going to mention it since you said no 3rd party, but I have a ZAM with Serene Barbarian 2. This is an archetype that replaces Rage with Serenity. Instead of +2 to STR and CON, you get it to DEX and WIS. It's perfect. That is the only difference from the regular Barbarian, so if you can swing the ZAM, it might be worthwhile to press your luck for the that too.
There is also the issue of Vital Strike not working with Focused Shot, or pretty much anything else.
|
|
LVL 14 1 Witch Hunter Inquisitor/13 Zen Quiggong Monk
(note our save feats are homeruled to give +2, +1/5 levels)
stats
12, 12, 14, 12, 22, 7
1. Steel Soul (+4 vs Spells, SLA's poisons)
BF. Precise Shot
BF.Perfect Strike (13/day roll 3 times on attack take best)
3. Deadly Aim (-4 atk, +8 dmg)
BF. Weapon Focus (Comp Longbow)
BF. Point Blank Shot
BF. Point Blank Master (no AoO for shooting)
5. Toughness
BF. Weapon Spec (Comp Longbow)
7. Lightning Reflexes (+2 reflex save, +1/5 levels)
BF.Improved Precise Shot (no cover ac for anything less than total)
9. extra Ki Pool (+2 Ki)
11. Great Fortitude (+2 Fort Save, +1/5 levels)
BF. Improved Critical (Comp Longbow)
13.Clustered Shots
Traits: Defensive Strategist
Glory of Old
Conversion Inquisition
Let me know what you all think.
If you were to take swap out one more level for Inquisitor, you would get to add +6 to your initiative and gain +1 to avoid spells identified with a Spellcraft check as well as gain another spell at 0 and 1. It might be worth it. Otherwise, it looks good.
|
|
If you're creating the character at 14th level, why not go with a thrown weapon and a belt of mighty hurling? You obviously wouldn't have the range of the crossbow, but you would do a lot more damage overall, based on Strength. And a throwing/returning hammer or axe is very Dwarven. You could even go Stalwart Defender as a prestige class for better defenses and the equivalent of rage bonuses. The only drawback of the Stalwart Defender is that it can't move while in a defensive stance, but that's not an issue for a ranged attacker.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Any true dwarven ranged fighter will use the fallowing weapons.
Hammer
Axe
Crossbow, Heavy
Canon
Beer mug
Any thing else would just be silly.
|
Now, think out of the box for a minute.
Now think out of the box again.
Now, imagine a grenade launcher.
What I am going to suggest is, a ranged alchemist build. With a grenade launcher.
You need to max Dexterity and Intelligence, which you can afford, since you are a dwarf.
Feats required:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Bullseye Shot
Discoveries required:
Explosive Missile
Now, Explosive missile allows you to shoot somebody with the bomb, dealing its damage and the crossbow damage, and reloads the crossbow, all in a simple standard action. The move action can be used to move, or to add +4 to hit from bullseye shot.
You also have a grenade launcher, I may have mentioned that.
It also gives you lots of leeway as to what sort of other feats and discoveries to pick, but for damage and shtuff, you use the grenade launcher. The one that launches grenades.
hey Hawriel, you forgot
Picks
Insults
Smaller Characters
The Lion Cleric, I was just discussing something similar yesterday.
The same type of build on a Dwarf with a heavy crossbow will work, you can even dump strength.
|
|
The Lion Cleric, I was just discussing something similar yesterday.
The same type of build on a Dwarf with a heavy crossbow will work, you can even dump strength.
Hm, It's really close to what I have in one of my games, however, if you combine that with the Bramble Brewer Half-Elf arch, with Ancestral Arms you can have a Heavy Repeating Crossbow (RAW dictates you reload it as a standard action, yes, the entire repeating crossbow), gimp Str even more, and get the Briar Bombs discovery, which is Tanglefoot Bomb, only better in any way.
But that's not the important part. The important part is the fact that the dwarf can make his own alcohol with Craft(alchemy)
