|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Simple question, what do you see as the Fighter's niche that the Ranger is unable to imitate?
The better question is: What does a fighter do that ANY of the other full BAB classes can't do better?
I think the fighter is in desperate need of two modifications to make the class more fun:
1) Fighters only provoke attacks of opportunity on failed CMB checks.
2) Increase base skill points to 4 + Int mod, and increase their skill list to include Heal and Perception.
Now they have at least one thing to do outside of combat, and are encouraged to try new things in combat. Suddenly a class that was stuck just rolling attacks and damage every round, then playing on their phone during the rest of the night, has some interesting options without replacing or becoming more useful/powerful than the other full BAB classes.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Fighter is simply better at combat. He is the definitive martial expert. He can master multiple styles of combat and move at full speed in heavy armor.
I see people say this a lot, but I've never seen an example of this where it actually mattered. Aside from Weapon Training (which I'd probably rather have FE since it gives non combat bonuses too), moving at normal speed in medium/heavy armor (which can be bought), Fighters don't really do anything that impressively...
Not get accidentally screwed over by the dm by being attacked by non chosen enemies in a non chosen environment.
COns, expanded
NO ability to buff with class features for boss fights.
Combat BOnuses fall rapidly with secondary weapons.
Doesn't get bonus spells for having a high Wisdom.
Weapon Style feats are gained earlier then a fighter.
Heavy Armor prof and Armor Training nets out to a +1 AC bonus for 4 levels of class features.
No ability to heal himself or remove conditions.
Takes twice as many feats and skill points to make magic items.
Can't change his build (spells) to take advantage of downtime.
Has no th/damage bonuses at level 1-3.
Actually has to meet all level and stat pre-reqs for combat feats. The Ranger doesn't for his Weapon Style.
Including the Track package, gets no more Feats pre-10th then a Ranger.
Generally won't have the Dex to take advantage of Armor Training until extremely high levels.
Not only fewer skill points, but fewer Class Skills.Pros
Don't have to worry about changing your build...you're always the same. And it takes 4 levels to remove a mistake, so you don't need to worry about it.Same
Hit points.
Will save (but Rangers get spells for wis, too!)
Fort Save
Weapon Profs==Aelryinth
You forget that fighters fight better unbuffed than rangers. THat means they if the ranger saves his resoursces until the boss fight then the fighter have performed better at killing previous enemies (unless those previous nemies are favorite enemies of course).
The rest pretty much yes.
Now you're paying money and spending actions to try and emulate what a Ranger gets for free. It has nothing to do with the fighter class. You're trying to spend gold to replace what you can't do. That's a dead end cost-wise.
True, but what about mitral celestial full plates?
UMD is and has always been a copout. Now you're paying money and spending actions to try and emulate what a Ranger gets for free. It has nothing to do with the fighter class. You're...I know that one of the Variant Wayfinder abilities allows you to gain a favored enemy. Most of the time they tell you to max out UMD which means any wands or scrolls are useable. A scroll of Greater Invisibility pretty much surpasses hide in plain sight, and what other spells are you worried about missing out on? Using your Wayfinder and a wand of instant enemy you can actually get all the DPR that the ranger gets plus more from being a fighter.While your Ranger is spending his extra dough on getting pixie armor, my Fighter will take that same gold for the extra costs of your fairy armor and spend it on items to improve his capabilities and open up other options.Before or after I buy mithral celestial plate armor?Let me see how fast your Ranger is running in Heavy armor and what your armor checks are like and come back to me again.Short answer: Nothing.
The Fighter doesn't do anything the Ranger can't do. He just does it better.
The problem with that is it's not too difficult or prohibitively expensive for a ranger to buy armour that simulates a fighter's mobility in heavy armour. For a fighter to purchase items that simulate a ranger's class abilities, I believe it is a different story altogether.
Does an item exist that gives Hide in Plain Sight? What is its cost? How about the ability to ignore feat prerequisites? 4 levels of spells? An animal companion? 2 good saves instead of 1? The ability to track? More skill points? And prolly a bunch of other things that I have forgotten the ranger can do because I rarely play them. But you get my drift. What equipment can a fighter buy to simulate a ranger's class abilities and at what cost?
The question was not about what is optimal, it was how can a fighter simulate a ranger's class abilities with items.
Those Ioun stones within wayfinders stack if you want to dump all your funds into a wayfinder that can hold multiple stones. Not that it's optimal, but it is possible which is the point.
Fighters also do not have any tracked resources other than those that they buy, they can keep on going and going and going way longer than 15 minutes. They also don't lose their prowess in an antimagic field as much as a ranger would.
Don't get me wrong, the Ranger is my favorite class, but let's not cut fighters short because you want to.
The ranger itself is a very strong class, we have had this thread many times before comparing the ranger to both the fighter and the rogue, which says a lot imo about classes that have no magical ability or supernatural abilities and also don't have grit.
You forget that fighters fight better unbuffed than rangers. THat means they if the ranger saves his resoursces until the boss fight then the fighter have performed better at killing previous enemies (unless those previous nemies are favorite enemies of course).
Fights that the party can handle without expending daily resources are pointless scrub fights.
Now you're paying money and spending actions to try and emulate what a Ranger gets for free. It has nothing to do with the fighter class. You're trying to spend gold to replace what you can't do. That's a dead end cost-wise.True, but what about mitral celestial full plates?
Mithral Celestial Full plate still counts as Medium Armor (mithral doesn't modify celestial's mod to armor type). The Dex benefit, however, does stack.
Since it's effectively medium armor with 0 ACP, a ranger can wear it. Big advantage? 24 Dex tops out the AC.
That's not got ANYTHING to do with UMD. It's got to do with getting your natural Dex bonus to AC.
Otherwise, Mithral BP goes up to 20 Dex, which is basically all a melee generally hopes for before 12+, and counts as light armor. Add in Longstrider, and he is outpacing the Fighter. Add in Barkskin, which is +2 levels ahead of Amulets of Nat Armor, and he's got a better AC.
The system is REALLY stacked against fighters.
==Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Fights that the party can handle without expending daily resources are pointless scrub fights.
You forget that fighters fight better unbuffed than rangers. THat means they if the ranger saves his resoursces until the boss fight then the fighter have performed better at killing previous enemies (unless those previous nemies are favorite enemies of course).
Not the point, and not talking about trivial fights.
I am talking about reasonably challenging but not decicively challenging encounters. Unless against favored enemies the ranger have to spend resources to be on part with the fighter, resources that he will not have for the boss fight.
And if he doe snot spend those then He will perform inferion to fighter, so they fight last longer and hte rest of the party have to spend their resources. The fighter performing better in those fights saves party resources.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Now you're paying money and spending actions to try and emulate what a Ranger gets for free. It has nothing to do with the fighter class. You're trying to spend gold to replace what you can't do. That's a dead end cost-wise.True, but what about mitral celestial full plates?Mithral Celestial Full plate still counts as Medium Armor (mithral doesn't modify celestial's mod to armor type). The Dex benefit, however, does stack.
Since it's effectively medium armor with 0 ACP, a ranger can wear it. Big advantage? 24 Dex tops out the AC.
That's not got ANYTHING to do with UMD. It's got to do with getting your natural Dex bonus to AC.
Otherwise, Mithral BP goes up to 20 Dex, which is basically all a melee generally hopes for before 12+, and counts as light armor. Add in Longstrider, and he is outpacing the Fighter. Add in Barkskin, which is +2 levels ahead of Amulets of Nat Armor, and he's got a better AC.
The system is REALLY stacked against fighters.
==Aelryinth
I am talking about hte double standar that fighters can not spend money to path their weakness because money is not class feature, but then everything is OK when the ranger, barbarian and paladin spend 35 K on mithral celestial plate, last time aI saw that armor was not class feature.
UMD is definitely a copout.
You're telling me the fighter who likely has a cha of 7(-2) or 8(-1) is going to reliably activate any sort of magical item? Before level 11? BAH! You can't take 10, even outside of combat.
The fighter is going to spend half the campaign trying to activate magical items and failing, wasting his turn. Even when he finally gets a +10 bonus he only has a 50% chance of success. Pretty poor way to spend your time in combat.
Discussions like this should never include the crutch of gear anyway - the topic is what the classes can DO, not what they may or may not be able to BUY...
The proper question is, in my opinion, which class offers more to the party as a whole and its in that vein that the Fighter begins to fall further and further behind. FWIW, its the same with Paladins and Barbarians but even moreso.
Now you're paying money and spending actions to try and emulate what a Ranger gets for free. It has nothing to do with the fighter class. You're trying to spend gold to replace what you can't do. That's a dead end cost-wise.True, but what about mitral celestial full plates?
I already brought this up: Celestial Full Plate costs 25,000 GP, the same or slightly less than +3 Full plate (10,500 GP) and Winged Boots (16,000 GP). Celestial only provides 1/day fly spell but it also only takes up one slot, and increases max dex bonus and decreases ACP penalties
Also, is anyone going to mention the fact that the Ranger gets to bring a second combatant with him as a class feature and how that impacts their proficiency in combat? Because they do, and it makes them that much better.
UMD is definitely a copout.
You're telling me the fighter who likely has a cha of 7(-2) or 8(-1) is going to reliably activate any sort of magical item? Before level 11? BAH! You can't take 10, even outside of combat.
The fighter is going to spend half the campaign trying to activate magical items and failing, wasting his turn. Even when he finally gets a +10 bonus he only has a 50% chance of success. Pretty poor way to spend your time in combat.
Discussions like this should never include the crutch of gear anyway - the topic is what the classes can DO, not what they may or may not be able to BUY...
The proper question is, in my opinion, which class offers more to the party as a whole and its in that vein that the Fighter begins to fall further and further behind. FWIW, its the same with Paladins and Barbarians but even moreso.
Very very true. But someone was trying to say you could cover the fighters deficiencies compared to the Ranger with UMD, and I was thinking about how it's not reliable.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am talking about hte double standar that fighters can not spend money to path their weakness because money is not class feature, but then everything is OK when the ranger, barbarian and paladin spend 35 K on mithral celestial plate, last time aI saw that armor was not class feature.
It's not a double standard. The point is that the burden on the ranger is much smaller than the burden on the fighter when the option to buy equipment that simulates class features is equally available to both.
It costs a ranger 35k to buy the one attractive class feature a fighter has that a ranger doesn't. It costs a fighter 25k to buy a ring of evasion which covers one of the many attractive class features the ranger has. The fighter cannot buy the rest of the ranger's class features for a mere 10k so LazarX's implication that the fighter will have all kinds of resources while the ranger wastes his money buying fairy armour is absurd--the fighter will spend more money chasing ranger class features than the ranger will spend chasing fighter class features.
Very very true. But someone was trying to say you could cover the fighters deficiencies compared to the Ranger with UMD, and I was thinking about how it's not reliable.UMD is definitely a copout.
You're telling me the fighter who likely has a cha of 7(-2) or 8(-1) is going to reliably activate any sort of magical item? Before level 11? BAH! You can't take 10, even outside of combat.
The fighter is going to spend half the campaign trying to activate magical items and failing, wasting his turn. Even when he finally gets a +10 bonus he only has a 50% chance of success. Pretty poor way to spend your time in combat.
Discussions like this should never include the crutch of gear anyway - the topic is what the classes can DO, not what they may or may not be able to BUY...
The proper question is, in my opinion, which class offers more to the party as a whole and its in that vein that the Fighter begins to fall further and further behind. FWIW, its the same with Paladins and Barbarians but even moreso.
I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was just reinforcing your point. Getting into these 'oh yeah, well what if I take UMD and buy a wand' tangents when discussing classes' relative strengths and weaknesses is totally beside the point.
|
***However, a ranger's primary weakness is under what circumstances the GM is putting him into. A ranger is more susceptable to getting screwed over by a GM. If a GM never confronts a party with a monster or enemy that also happens to be a ranger's favored enemy, no matter his bonuses, he may never get to use that ability (I have played a ranger, where the GM didn't want to specifically favor him in combat, his solution, was to never put a favored enemy as a possible threat, essentially ruining that class feature.)
***
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
pass that fortitude save to not die from massive damage and survive massive damage ( granted the barbarian has better hit points generally)
Ummm...you realize the Ranger's Hit Dice and Fort save progression are IDENTICAL to the Fighter's, right?
Anywho, I'm not sure that people realize how small the difference between Fighter and Ranger damage output really is. I like to assume 10th level just because it's easy (and gives the Fighter his biggest advantage), but this applies pretty well to any level.
At best, with the Ranger facing no Favored Enemy, the Fighter will have something like +6 to-hit (Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Training +2 with Duelist's Gloves) and +6 damage (Weapon Specialization, and Weapon Training with Duelist's Gloves).
Exactly the same as the Ranger will have facing his main Favored Enemy, only 2 more than his Secondary FE, and 4 more than his tertiary FE.
So situationally the Fighter will blow the Ranger out of the water in combat, but in practice he either has no leg up, or a very negligible one.
Even worse, barring "many small hits" builds like Archery (which the Fighter rocks, no question, as Nicos showed me in our comparison build thing a while back) and Two-Weapon Fighting, this damage boost is probably insignificant since the totals are going to be so large already. And the damage gap for TWFing on a Ranger closes so that he's only about 2 damage behind the Fighter with no FE since he can pump Str and get by TWFing with only 15 Dex because of Combat Style.
To gain that, he gives up pretty much every shred of out of combat capability he could possibly have. He has no class features that adds to skills, he has 4 less skill points, no spells, no Animal Companion, no Favored Terrain (which, if nothing else, will make the Ranger ACT FIRST most of the time), etc.
ALL the Fighter can do is hit it with a stick (or multiple sticks, or sticks at range), and he doesn't even do that with an overwhelming advantage over the Ranger...and that's not even touching on the Barbarian.
Fighters also do not have any tracked resources other than those that they buy, they can keep on going and going and going way longer than 15 minutes.
The problem is that they do have a tracked resource that keeps them from going way longer than 15 minutes - and that's hit points. Its a resource that they are likely to expend faster than anyone else, and its a resource that the class has no way of replenishing. The irony of this is that by having to expend party resources repeatedly healing the Fighter, it might often turn a 4 encounter a day group into a 3 encounter a day group, regardless of whether the Fighter runs out of swings of his sword or not.
And this brings up an interesting point - if the defining strength of the Fighter is that he can keep going forever, and he's surrounded by a party full of people limited by resources designed to fight three or four times a day, then unless he's going to run off by himself while everyone else rests his defining strength becomes utterly useless.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
magic items are not part of the comparison package.
Otherwise, the Ranger gets to add in that +2 Enhancement that makes a magic weapon Bane to all his favored enemies...and then use Instant Enemy to shift the FE to whatever is needed.
Suddenly the Ranger is now +8/+8 +2d6 against his primary or any boss, and +4/+4 +4d6 against any other FE desired.
So, let's keep it to +2 Weapon Training and +2/+2 for blowing three feats, for an even +4. To one weapon, pick either Missile or Melee.
The ranger, of course, doesn't have to pick, he gets the bonus regardless.
Oh, and his FE bonuses start at 1st level. Have fun waiting until 4th for any damage bonus!
==Aelryinth
|
|
ALL the Fighter can do is hit it with a stick (or multiple sticks, or sticks at range), and he doesn't even do that with an overwhelming advantage over the...
An advantage that closes quickly when you start calculating in things like Animal Companion damage output and flanking bonuses, or spells like gravity bow, lead blades, and instant enemy. Considering the game assumes 3-5 combat encounters and 1-3 skill encounters in a working day and that's what every other class is balanced to, the Fighter's "I can go all night" advantage stops counting for much after about 5th level except in exceedingly rare circumstances.
It is a pretty questionable boon to say that the Fighter can keep fighting long after everyone's spells are gone; truthfully, he can keep fighting until the party healer's spells are gone and then his most limited resource, hit points, will take him out pretty quickly thereafter, where almost every other class has a reliable way to handle at least some of their own healing.
Hmm, fighters do have somethings going for them though such as really awesome, but specialized builds. One of my current characters is a lore warden fighter that uses a whip, and has whirlwind attack, improved trip, lunge, and just finished the whip mastery feat tree at level 8. So as a full-round action he can trip everything within 20 ft. Definitely helped last session when I tripped five stone giants in one turn. I doubt a ranger could pull that off with all of the feats required.
I see this language in the description of Whirlwind Attack:
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
does this mean the bonus reach from lunge is negated?
Whirlwind only affects people in adjacent squares, I believe?
I'm wondering how all those giants got into adjacent squares around a human.
==Aelryinth
Whirlwind only affects people in adjacent squares, I believe?
I'm wondering how all those giants got into adjacent squares around a human.
==Aelryinth
Whirlwind attacks any foe within reach. This is not necessarily the same as "adjacent squares."
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
does this mean the bonus reach from lunge is negated?
I'm not 100% sure. I would rule that you can. The literal reading "any bonus or any extra attacks ..." that you're going off of would lead to strange behavior. "Oh, you wanted to Whirlwind Attack. Alright, you've lose your bonus from Bull's Strength, and Haste, and ...." No one would ever use the feat.
I read it as, "You only get one attack against each enemy. Don't try to cheese this and say you get 5 attacks against every enemy within reach."
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2juen?Combining-Whirlwind-Attack-and-Lunge
Tends to agree that the two stack.
Whirlwind only affects people in adjacent squares, I believe?
I'm wondering how all those giants got into adjacent squares around a human.
==Aelryinth
Whirlwind attacks any foe within reach. This is not necessarily the same as "adjacent squares."
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
does this mean the bonus reach from lunge is negated?
I'm not 100% sure. I would rule that you can. The literal reading "any bonus or any extra attacks ..." that you're going off of would lead to strange behavior. "Oh, you wanted to Whirlwind Attack. Alright, you've lose your bonus from Bull's Strength, and Haste, and ...." No one would ever use the feat.
I read it as, "You only get one attack against each enemy. Don't try to cheese this and say you get 5 attacks against every enemy within reach."
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2juen?Combining-Whirlwind-Attack-and-Lunge
Tends to agree that the two stack.
They absolutely do stack. The only melee-oriented Fighter I ever enjoyed running was one who featured a Lunging Dazing Whirlwind Attack as his primary means of control.
Fighters may not stack up 'balance-wise' with other classes and may have greater limitations, but you can definitely make some fun ones. The thing about the Fighter class - in my experience - is that its best enjoyed either as a dip with other classes or with a dip from other classes.
Weaponmaster Fighter built as an Archer with a two-level dip in Urban Barbarian, a Brawler Fighter built with a two-level dip in Master of Many styles (pre-Crane Wing nerf), a Whirlwind Fighter with a two level dip in Invulnerable Rager to be able to Rage when needed most, etc. All are great builds using the Fighter as the core class but made better by cherry-picking from others.
Otherwise, the Ranger gets to add in that +2 Enhancement that makes a magic weapon Bane to all his favored enemies...and then use Instant Enemy to shift the FE to whatever is needed.
==Aelryinth
What enhancement is that? I must have missed this.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I haven't seen this mentioned yet.
The greatest advantage (in my opinion) of the fighter is that their combat build typically comes together faster. They are playing their desired combat character a level, or two (and eventually three to four) levels faster.
Fighter 2: Point Plank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
Ranger 2: Point Blank Shot, Precise ShotFighter 6: Point Plank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus, Point Blank Master, Manyshot
Ranger 2: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, ManyshotWith just the Core Rule Book, the fighter runs out of feats to get, so this advantage is diminished. As the expansion books have opened up more and more "must have" feats, I think that this fighter "feature" has blossomed quite nicely.
Completing feat trees faster is one of the biggies for the Fighter, though it is offset somewhat by his terrible skills and craptastic saves. Generally, the argument goes "Yeah, his saves suck, but he gets more feats so he can shore them up", but then he's not actually getting more feats, because his feats are being burned to give him the advantages that are built into other classes autmatically.
Which is not to say that being able to use the Thunder and Fang feat and TWF with a two-handed weapon at level 2 isn't awesome, but there's kind of a cost/benefit analysis and life of play dynamic to consider. The Fighter can be pretty kickass during the first 5 levels of play where his advantages really show themselves off and his weaknesses have yet to become particularly pronounced. But his advantages start tapering off quickly after that point, and you either get a guy with big, gaping holes in his defenses but the ability to dish out a lot of hurt (and nothing else), or you shore those up with his only class resource, feats, and that cool boost you had at lower levels trickles away.
Completing feat trees faster is one of the biggies for the Fighter, though it is offset somewhat by his terrible skills and craptastic saves.
Not to mention the ranger's bonus feats bypassing prerequisites can sometimes give them an edge when it comes to feat trees as well. The fighter has the bonus feats to not be bothered by a couple junk feat prerequisites for ones he really wants, while the ranger just bypasses the pre-reqs and jumps straight to the good stuff. Not to mention bypassing BAB limits lets him get some valuable feats like Shield Master and improved Precise Shot five levels sooner than the fighter could.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
There's also the fact that for a very long time the Fighter has essentially no meaningful advantages over anyone. Let's look for a moment.
- Rangers destroy Fighters in ability scores. They use the same sorts of ability scores Fighters do (Str/Dex/Con/Wis) and have similar dump-stats. However the Fighter is more strained when it comes to what he can do with his ability scores. To have worthwhile skill points he needs to have a higher than average Intelligence score. He needs a really high Dexterity to take advantage of his Armor Training class feature and qualify for archery feats like Improved Precise Shot (Dex 19 requirement), whereas a Ranger can happily collect excellent feats without meeting their requirements, allowing them early access without needing excessively expensive gear (to buff their stats to meet the minimums), excessive point buys (standard 15 is great), and even ignore BAB requirements (getting +11 BAB feats at 6th level).
A 15 point ranger can look like: 16, 14, 14, 7, 13, 7 before racial mods. The ranger even with this loadout has 4 skill points per level which is the equivalent of having a +2 Intelligence compared to the Fighter.
The Fighter is going to be behind somewhere for certain. He just can't get out of it. He either won't be able to meet the same Strength modifiers, won't be able to capitalize on his Dexterity, is going to have fewer HP and worse saves, is going to be stuck with no skills, or something. He just cannot match the Ranger pound for pound starting from ability scores.
Meanwhile the Ranger still counts more benefit from each ability score (same benefits for Str/Dex/Con, and not only does Wisdom buff his saves but gives him access to more spellcasting and better skill mods).
- At 1st-3rd level he has no damage bonuses with weapons that Paladins, Rangers, and Barbarians don't get. Rangers and Barbarians are just better in this regard since occasionally Ranger gets a +2 to hit and damage, and the Barbarian can rage for +2/+3 when it's needed, and Paladins get Smite once per day.
- At low levels, unless the Fighter is investing all of his feats into it all of the martials have the same armor class. No one can afford heavy armor (the most expensive armor you can initially afford is Chainmail + Shield).
- This "I'm not interesting" problem extends to 4th level if the fighter isn't speccing a single weapon with the Weapon Specialization feat. However at 4th level, the Fighter gets the ability to move without a speed penalty while in Medium Armor. At this level you finally match the barbarian's speed (the Barbarian had fast movement speed in medium armor since 1st level and faster speed in light armor), and this level the Ranger gets an animal companion (which he can ride on to not only buff his movement speed but also move and take his own set of actions too) and 1st level spells (which includes Longstrider which is a 1 hr / level spell which means it can last entire adventures unless the party is caught unaware while in the wilderness or something).
- The Fighter still gets virtually no benefits when actually challenging the rest of the party in AC since he either wears heavy armor and moves slow like everyone else, or he wears medium armor with almost nothing to show for it.
- Once a fighter's class features begin getting pretty noteworthy, most of the other martials - especially rangers - are getting waaaaay better options.
- And since a lot of people seem to love talking about how Fighters can try to buy ranger class features, let's talk about how Rangers can buy more ranger class features. I present to you the boots of friendly terrain, which is so cheap that the Ranger can literally craft a new set of boots at his/her convenience and change boots as they travel the world (or keeping adding new terrains to the same boots for +50% cost, but that's really not needed unless you just want to).
Or Hunter's Band which gives another +1 to hit and damage on favored enemy (and some other stuff). Enmity Fetish which allows you to change your favored enemy bonuses. Hunstman weapons are also well suited for rangers (not rangers exclusively, but their Track ability makes activating it way easier and investing heavily in Survival is tons easier for them).
Just the tip of the iceberg.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Which is not to say that being able to use the Thunder and Fang feat and TWF with a two-handed weapon at level 2 isn't awesome, but there's kind of a cost/benefit analysis and life of play dynamic to consider. The Fighter can be pretty kickass during the first 5 levels of play where his advantages really show themselves off and his weaknesses have yet to become particularly pronounced. But his advantages start tapering off quickly after that point, and you either get a guy with big, gaping holes in his defenses but the ability to dish out a lot of hurt (and nothing else), or you shore those up with his only class resource, feats, and that cool boost you had at lower levels trickles away.
I'm actually of the belief that Fighters aren't special at low levels either. At the earliest levels they are outshined by literally every other martial in core. Barbarians begin moving faster than them in the same armor, are just as strong, tougher, better defenses, and have an ability they can turn on if needed to get +2/+3 to hit/damage and +2 to Will at the cost of -2 AC for example. Rangers are equal to them in combat prowess while also having better saves, skill options, and access to scrolls and wands the fighters don't have. Paladins start off slowest but the moment they hit 2nd level they are well on their way to beating them out as great martials.
Fighters don't really get anything that's particularly noteworthy until 4th level (slight armor adjustment that helps them catch up with barbarians a little), and it's not until 5th level that they get some sort of in-class method of improving damage and it's only a +1 and only with a specific subgroup of weaponry.
Tanking is all the fighter does better than any class. I have yet to see a class that can tank up as much as fighter can.
I've saw fighter in my group had an AC of 56 at level 18 going with sword and board two weapon fighting style in mitheral full plate. Took Eldrich heritage feats to get the natural armor using the dragon bloodline with ifrit race and swapped the 5 energy resistance for +4 initiative. Did some good damage too so he was a threat.
|
|
I'm actually of the belief that Fighters aren't special at low levels either. At the earliest levels they are outshined by literally every other martial in core. Barbarians begin moving faster than them in the same armor, are just as strong, tougher, better defenses, and have an ability they can turn on if needed to get +2/+3 to hit/damage and +2 to Will at the cost of -2 AC for example. Rangers are equal to them in combat prowess while also having better saves, skill options, and access to scrolls and wands the fighters don't have. Paladins start off slowest but the moment they hit 2nd level they are well on their way to beating them out as great martials.
Fighters don't really get anything that's particularly noteworthy until 4th level (slight armor adjustment that helps them catch up with barbarians a little), and it's not until 5th level that they get some sort of in-class method of improving damage and it's only a +1 and only with a specific subgroup of weaponry.
There are certain specific options Fighters can take to be better during those first 5, like the Thunder and Fang feats I mentioned. That allows a Fighter to have competitive DPR by TWF with a two-handed weapon and a shield, while keeping the shield's bonus to AC, and a human Fighter can do it at level 2. I think the soonest anyone else can get there is 5. Of course, that's also a fairly powerful feat from a supplement. The Fighter benefits in archery as well though, being able to collect Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot by level one or two (ahead of even the Ranger for whom level one isn't an option) and maintaining a small lead from there. Granted the Ranger can skip some prereqs, but that's of less benefit in archery where you actually kind of need those pre-reqs you're skipping (though it kicks ass for TWF, where T&F is like the Fighters only option to stay competitive). A Fighter who, for some unknown reason, wanted to fight with a crossbow could also do that better than a Ranger during the first 5 levels, being able to pick up Crossbow Mastery at level 2 or 3 compared to the Ranger's 3 or 5. The Fighter basically has the length of one feat tree to be comnpetitive; ironically it's at the same level where he gets his best class feature that he starts losing any edge he might have.
If for some reason you want it, fighter can have whirlwind strike at level 4.
|
We're comparing the awful base-book Fighter to the base-book but upgraded with Instant Enemy Ranger.
Let's compare some niches Rangers simply cannot make:
*CMB - Lore Warden opened up the world of being "king of manuevers" with a static CMB bonus that others dream of
*Two-handing a weapon - Rangers suck at this, and the Two-handed fighter swings like a truck.
*AC Machines - the game is 20 levels (mostly focused on the early portion), and for the first 9 or 10 AC is relevant, whatever everyone says
That's pretty much it; though there's a lot to be said for feat-need necessity.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here's something a Fighter can do that a Ranger can't (granted with an archetype...)-
Dirty Harry the 1/2-orc Fighter(Dirty Fighter archetype)
Half-orc qualifies for archetypes/feats/magic/whatever as 1/2-orc, human, and orc => there was a relevant ruling on that some time ago that I can't be bothered to dig up now. Anyhow, the ARG is actually pretty clear on that(humanoids qualify as whatever race they have the subtype of, 1/2-orcs are humanoid(human, orc)).
So...
15 Pointbuy: 17 STR, 12 DEX, 14 CON, 13 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA
1st:Endurance(Shaman's Apprentice), Power Attack, Cleave
2nd:Dodge
3rd:Mobility
4th:Spring Attack, Swap Power Attack for Whirlwind Attack; +1 STR
5th:Combat Reflexes
6th:Lunge
7th:Combat Expertise
8th:Improved Dirty Trick, Swap Combat Reflexes for Greater Dirty Trick, +1 STR
9th:Weapon Focus(any reach weapon)
10th:Greater Weapon Focus(any reach weapon)
11th:Dirty Trick Master
12th:-Open-, +1 STR
13th:-Open-
14th:-Open-
15th:-Open-
16th:-Open-, +1 STR
17th:-Open-
18th:-Open-
19th:-Open-
20th:-Open-, +1 INT
The feats from 12th level onward are non-essential to the build.
"Speedy Tricks" allows you to perform a dirty trick maneuver in place of an attack. ANY attack. You get this ability at 9th level.
You can perform a lunging whirlwind attack that applies a greater dirty trick at (9 BAB, +5 STR, +1 WF, +4 improved/greater DT, +2 maneuver training, +4 from a +1 dueling bardiche and the trait Fate's favored)..+25 CMB before buffs like Haste, Heroism, Inspire Courage etc.
Your strength score might be higher than 20 at this point -buffs like enlarge person or simple magic items to provide an enhancement bonus to STR might be available at level 9.
At level 13, each dirty trick applies TWO conditions, and each requires a seperate action to remove!
At level 17, each dirty trick applies THREE conditions, and each requires a seperate action to remove!
And the beauty of Dirty Trick Master, the final piece in this puzzle:
Once you hit someone with Nausea or Daze, they cannot take a standard action to rid themselves of whatever condition your Greater Dirty Trick inflicted, so they are practically out of the fight.
Our exchange was about a single fighter class feature the ranger doesn't have, the fighter's ability to move at full speed at heavy armor.
The ranger casts Longstrider on himself to make up for the move speed lost by wearing heavy armor. And he can do that at level 4, while the Fighter doesn't get the ability to move 30 ft in heavy armor until level 7. And Longstrider actually works better than the fighter feature if you're playing a race with a 20ft move speed.
We're comparing the awful base-book Fighter to the base-book but upgraded with Instant Enemy Ranger.
Let's compare some niches Rangers simply cannot make:
*CMB - Lore Warden opened up the world of being "king of manuevers" with a static CMB bonus that others dream of
*Two-handing a weapon - Rangers suck at this, and the Two-handed fighter swings like a truck.
*AC Machines - the game is 20 levels (mostly focused on the early portion), and for the first 9 or 10 AC is relevant, whatever everyone saysThat's pretty much it; though there's a lot to be said for feat-need necessity.
Rangers can two-hand just as well, that's the one style that doesn't have a bunch of pointless feat requirements. Fighters can take the two-hander archetype, but doesn't that give up Armor Training?
|
|
Tanking is all the fighter does better than any class. I have yet to see a class that can tank up as much as fighter can.
I've saw fighter in my group had an AC of 56 at level 18 going with sword and board two weapon fighting style in mitheral full plate. Took Eldrich heritage feats to get the natural armor using the dragon bloodline with ifrit race and swapped the 5 energy resistance for +4 initiative. Did some good damage too so he was a threat.
I still think a Paladin is actually a better tank. Any small difference in AC between a sword and board Fighter and a sword and board Paladin is more than compensated for by the Paladin's swift action self-healing, AC boosts from Smite, and massively stronger saves. It doesn't matter how high your AC is if you're at the bottom of a pit, and it actually hurts your party a lot more if the guy with the crazy high AC is charmed, confused, dominated, etc. and starts going after them. It also helps that the Paladin can heal up his allies, so enemies are less likely to decide and focus-fire the squishies before dealing with him.
The Fighter may do it a bit better than the Ranger, but the Ranger's ability to take the Weapon and Shield style and potentially have an Animal Companion helping run interference (not to mention spells like life bubble, entangle, cure x wounds, wind wall, etc.) is probably better than a couple points of AC.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This had been touched upon with other language, but the fighter can also develop into niche builds that the Ranger can't simulate. The Ranger paths cover a good many ways to build a character, but not all of them. The Aldori Swordlord (defensive duelist type fighter) immediately comes to mind. In another example of the same niche build idea, the Fighter can double down on a feat chain (like whirlwind attack) to reach it faster.
I agree that the fighter class could use improvement. In fact, it needs a serious amount of help. The skills alone are terribad. But I haven't seen so much hatred and scorn directed at a class since the last Rogue thread and for some reason this surprises me.
You're changing the goalposts and being more than disingenuous about our exchange. Our exchange was about a single fighter class feature the ranger doesn't have, the fighter's ability to move at full speed at heavy armor. You threw money at the Ranger in order to give him mithral plate (which btw, STILL limits you to a 20 move rate) and I responded to that specific move on your part about it being extra money the Fighter gets to spend for his own purposes.I am talking about hte double standar that fighters can not spend money to path their weakness because money is not class feature, but then everything is OK when the ranger, barbarian and paladin spend 35 K on mithral celestial plate, last time aI saw that armor was not class feature.It's not a double standard. The point is that the burden on the ranger is much smaller than the burden on the fighter when the option to buy equipment that simulates class features is equally available to both.
It costs a ranger 35k to buy the one attractive class feature a fighter has that a ranger doesn't. It costs a fighter 25k to buy a ring of evasion which covers one of the many attractive class features the ranger has. The fighter cannot buy the rest of the ranger's class features for a mere 10k so LazarX's implication that the fighter will have all kinds of resources while the ranger wastes his money buying fairy armour is absurd--the fighter will spend more money chasing ranger class features than the ranger will spend chasing fighter class features.
We had no such exchange. Please check who you're arguing with before you accuse people of being disingenuous. I pointed out your response to Squirrel Dude was absurd. The entire argument is silly from both sides in fact. Wealth is not going to balance the classes because they are supposed to have access to equal wealth. If you must bring wealth into the equation though, the fighter wil spend more gold getting ranger class features than the ranger will spend getting fighter features, which is the only point I have tried to make.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This had been touched upon with other language, but the fighter can also develop into niche builds that the Ranger can't simulate. The Ranger paths cover a good many ways to build a character, but not all of them. The Aldori Swordlord (defensive duelist type fighter) immediately comes to mind. In another example of the same niche build idea, the Fighter can double down on a feat chain (like whirlwind attack) to reach it faster.
I agree that the fighter class could use improvement. In fact, it needs a serious amount of help. The skills alone are terribad. But I haven't seen so much hatred and scorn directed at a class since the last Rogue thread and for some reason this surprises me.
Right, the fighter does two things- DPR and tank, and does them well. It has cruddy skp no spells, and to me is a rather boring plain vanilla DPR/tanking machine. But- that's what some people want. and with some 17+ base classes, there's certainly room for a plain vanilla DPR/tanking machine. I mean, it's not like it's the ONLy full BAB class you have- as pointed out there the ranger can do many, many things better than a fighter, whilst a fighter can only do a couple things better than a ranger. So great-play a ranger. Or if you want a knight type play a cavalier, or a paladin- plain or with divine power knights. And there's the Bbn, which does take a lot of research to get a good build- but which is possibly the best full Bab class in the game.
So, just in full BAB classes you have at least five choices and endless archetypes. My two choices are Paladin or Ranger. I don't play fighters. But I have no objections to others playing one.
Why begrudge the guy who wants to play a plain vanilla fighter? I mean, no one is forcing anyone to play it. Let those who prefer this class have it. And I know many who complain about Fighter also complain about rogue, monk, and pretty much any class without decent spellcasting. Great- go ahead and play a spellcaster- who is stopping you?
Unhelpful comments that more or less just say "it sucks" are just that- unhelpful.
And sure it has a Poor will save- but so does the Ranger. But since Ftr has many extra feats, burning one on Iron will plus a trait means it's Ok. Heck, burn two feats. Still puts you 9 ahead of the ranger.
Why would a Fighter have 9 Feats on a Ranger? Rangers get 5 Bonus Feats too you know.
Why would a Fighter have 9 Feats on a Ranger? Rangers get 5 Bonus Feats too you know.
And the Ranger's ignore worthless prerequisites that the Fighter would need to take. And he gets the top tier feats earlier.
Getting Shield Master at 6th level is part of the reason Rangers spit on the Fighter, it's true.