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This spell totally and utterly negates and style of combat. There is no way around it besides asking your caster friend to dispel it.
So, as it is like the old crane wings problem but works on whatever arbitrary numbers of attacks per round, I wonder, is there any change this get nerged in the near future?
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Probably not, since it's not a martial ability.
Negating entire styles of combat is the entire point of magic. Working as intended.
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If you're the GM, just ban it and move on.
Have you looked at Winds of Vengeance yet?
yeah, it is 5 levels above and only protect the caster (unlike fickle winds)
Fickle Winds is tough on archers. Then again fly is tough on melees.
Archery is powerful when it works. All an archer needs is one round on a caster, they usually die. Protection from Arrows is worthless. Even stoneskin is pretty worthless against archery.
I'm ok with forcing a caster to dispel a spell to allow a martial to do huge damage.
And I know I'm ok with being undispelable. High levels are really really rough on non-casters.
Archery tends to be damage that is easily accessible when built right, but also easier to shut down.
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The spell is bs, and shouldn't exist.
Of course, the base spell, wind wall, is also bs.
Both should just give a 30% chance of blowing away any projectiles instead of completely shutting down certain ones. Fickle Winds is just especially bs because the cop out "just go around it!" doesn't even work anymore.
But, if your DM "goes by RAW" and is unyielding to requests to nerf or ban the spell... Keep a sling as a back up weapon, or shuriken or other thrown weapons. Since by strict RAW, wind wall and fickle winds only auto-shut down bolts and arrows.
One of the best spells for Rangers but not for the arrow/bolt part but for it's ability to negate gases. We all know how obnoxious it is when every enemy caster has Stinking Cloud or worse Cloud Kill.
The spell is bs, and shouldn't exist.
I do not like the tone but yeah.
it seems like the thought procces was
"uhm, Archery is actually effective in pathfinder, Imposibru!, lest make a spell so wizard does not have to worry about it."
Just go above or below it. Unfortunately martials can't fly without magic items, but thems the breaks.
And I know I'm ok with being undispelable. High levels are really really rough on non-casters.
Are they? Is that in the illusionary world you live in where the casters all have time to buff and are perfectly set up to be inaccessible to the martials? I have a more difficult time with martials and their excessive damage that a caster cannot possibly withstand.
You have any clue what a high level archer does for damage? You have any clue what a high level caster's hit points are? It's either stop the damage or die. There's no in-between.
Last encounter I ran was a lvl 14 witch and a lvl 13 witch backed up by a lvl 14 Blood Knight and lvl 12 fighter/ex-paladin. They were in a room without much maneuverability.
Paladin activated his winged boots and used his blessing of fervor for extra movement, flew to her, smote her, and dropped her to 10 hit points in one round. That poor, poor martial. I guess if he hadn't won initiative, he might have given her time to erect better defenses.
Martials are vicious at high level. Casters are far easier to handle as a DM in many instances. A single save can short circuit a caster. Hard to stop most martials from hitting. Their hits rolls get downright insane at high levels. Most average 40 to 50 points a hit and if they crit, far, far more.
I get so tired of hearing the martial whining. If a martial gets a hold of a caster for even a single round, that caster is usually dead meat or nearly so. Casters have no choice but to find a way to avoid the damage or die. That never gets brought up in the caster vs. martial discussions because it would hurt the "Martials are so weak" argument.
I DM a ton. Martials are a bigger pain in my behind than casters. Usually the best thing a caster can do in a battle is buff up a martial and send him at an enemy like a missile because it will do far more damage than the caster is capable of. Save or sucks are great if they work. If they don't, caster just wasted a round. If he happens to run into a creature immune to everything he does, he's screwed. So once again he's back to "buff up the martial and send the missile in" tactic.
The only martials that are majorly gimp are fighters and rogues. That is mostly because they have bad saves in the worst areas (will and fort) and no means to boost them. Just about every other martial is a friggin nightmare.
Note: I've never run a cavalier. No one plays the class because the mount is unusable in the vast majority of encounters. No usable mount neuters the class.
My martial can fly without items....getting flight in every character is always a goal for me. For the very reason it'd so useful.
Sylph Duelist with Wings of Air.
And I know I'm ok with being undispelable. High levels are really really rough on non-casters.Are they? Is that in the illusionary world you live in where the casters all have time to buff and are perfectly set up to be inaccessible to the martials? I have a more difficult time with martials and their excessive damage that a caster cannot possibly withstand.
You have any clue what a high level archer does for damage? You have any clue what a high level caster's hit points are? It's either stop the damage or die. There's no in-between.
Last encounter I ran was a lvl 14 witch and a lvl 13 witch backed up by a lvl 14 Blood Knight and lvl 12 fighter/ex-paladin. They were in a room without much maneuverability.
Paladin activated his winged boots and used his blessing of fervor for extra movement, flew to her, smote her, and dropped her to 10 hit points in one round. That poor, poor martial. I guess if he hadn't won initiative, he might have given her time to erect better defenses.
Martials are vicious at high level. Casters are far easier to handle as a DM in many instances. A single save can short circuit a caster. Hard to stop most martials from hitting. Their hits rolls get downright insane at high levels. Most average 40 to 50 points a hit and if they crit, far, far more.
I get so tired of hearing the martial whining. If a martial gets a hold of a caster for even a single round, that caster is usually dead meat or nearly so. Casters have no choice but to find a way to avoid the damage or die. That never gets brought up in the caster vs. martial discussions because it would hurt the "Martials are so weak" argument.
I DM a ton. Martials are a bigger pain in my behind than casters. Usually the best thing a caster can do in a battle is buff up a martial and send him at an enemy like a missile because it will do far more damage than the caster is capable of. Save or sucks are great if they work. If they don't, caster just wasted a round. If he happens to...
Considering that casters can literally play 20 questions with the universe and determine the future, and no martial has access to that sort of future determination, yes casters are going to be bufffed all day long. Really Aroden's Spellbane is hours per levels which means when Extended with Staff of the Master, I'm looking at a 54 hour or so buff, it'll be up when the enemy comes a calling. Minute per level buffs extended are running for close to an hour and 10 minute per level buffs might as well be all day buffs at this point.
High level casters don't use Save or Dies, they use No Save - Just Lose spells and while Martials still have to contend with things like AC, Miss Chance, the fact that their opponent can move father then them and cast two spells in the same rounds, and target them from over 300 ft. away, and even if the martial gets close they have to fight through minions, make it a very time to be a martial. I have literally never wasted a round casting Maze or Limited Wish duplicating Geas/Quest. Ever. And since you can do both of those in the same round, the caster just took two people out of the fight, no rolling required.
Also, no offense, but the odds of a paladin beating a caster's imitative is highly unlikely. You have an uphill battle to beat the 13+ (if not more) initiative a caster is cranking and you are guaranteed to lose the against a Divination Wizard or CHA based caster with Noble Scion, who have a base line imitative of 10+ and easily break +20 to imitative. (My high level CHA based casters sit very comfortably at a +43 Initiative. Best of luck!)
It doesn't seem liek you really very familiar with high level combat. Take a look at the fight in the Fighter BBEG thread to see just how easily a high level caster can run roughshod over a high level Fighter who even has support. That is what high level fights look like. Yes, Rangers/Paladins are better off then the Fighter, but compared to a high level caster... not by enough to matter.
The spell seems fine to me.
Well, this is true you can turn Save or Lose into Probably not Save - Then Lose, but even then if you are such a caster you always have to option to switch to No Saves if for some reason you feel like they won't succeed. But ya, Spell Perfection is a scary scary feat.
And now it's a "wizards rule, fighters drool" thread. Again.
Well in fairness the op did sort of point of the issue. And the big thing about martials versus casters is that... well... its an issue. A big one.
It would be nice if the 3e/PF paradigm wasn't 'let's make this stuff overpowered then give it a silver bullet'.
Well in fairness the op did sort of point of the issue. And the big thing about martials versus casters is that... well... its an issue. A big one.
If you say so.
Not intended as a discusson of martial/cater disparity, I think the absurdity of hte spell is pretty evident so it was not the point.
More interested in the chance of an errata to this, althoug it was a rethorical question because I doubt it will happens.
Casters have absurd spells.
That shuts down a martial strategy.
But not intended as a discussion of Martial/Caster Disparity.
I don't follow.
Casters have absurd spells.
That shuts down a martial strategy.
But not intended as a discussion of Martial/Caster Disparity.
I don't follow.
Ther disparity is there, not sure what more is to say about it existence.
Taking your word for it re: intentions, but suffice it to say that the absurdity is most certainly not evident to me.
...And I know I'm ok with being undispelable. High levels are really really rough on non-casters.Are they? Is that in the illusionary world you live in where the casters all have time to buff and are perfectly set up to be inaccessible to the martials? I have a more difficult time with martials and their excessive damage that a caster cannot possibly withstand.
You have any clue what a high level archer does for damage? You have any clue what a high level caster's hit points are? It's either stop the damage or die. There's no in-between.
Last encounter I ran was a lvl 14 witch and a lvl 13 witch backed up by a lvl 14 Blood Knight and lvl 12 fighter/ex-paladin. They were in a room without much maneuverability.
Paladin activated his winged boots and used his blessing of fervor for extra movement, flew to her, smote her, and dropped her to 10 hit points in one round. That poor, poor martial. I guess if he hadn't won initiative, he might have given her time to erect better defenses.
Martials are vicious at high level. Casters are far easier to handle as a DM in many instances. A single save can short circuit a caster. Hard to stop most martials from hitting. Their hits rolls get downright insane at high levels. Most average 40 to 50 points a hit and if they crit, far, far more.
I get so tired of hearing the martial whining. If a martial gets a hold of a caster for even a single round, that caster is usually dead meat or nearly so. Casters have no choice but to find a way to avoid the damage or die. That never gets brought up in the caster vs. martial discussions because it would hurt the "Martials are so weak" argument.
I DM a ton. Martials are a bigger pain in my behind than casters. Usually the best thing a caster can do in a battle is buff up a martial and send him at an enemy like a missile because it will do far more damage than the caster is capable of. Save or sucks are great if they work. If they don't, caster just
You're citing a theory craft battle as proof? I play high level fights. I ran a two-hander fighter to lvl 21. It is you who seem to known nothing of high level combat.
So tell me do fighters generally go mano y mano against BBEG casters? Nope. Do casters usually put themselves out there against BBEG casters so they become the focused target of the opponent? Nope.
You have this ridiculous idea in your head that PC casters get to launch all their spells while the opponent stands there doing nothing. You also have this ridiculous idea that PC casters are somehow immune to anything an NPC can do. Also not how it works.
These stupid theorycraft PVP battles that some people try to use as proof of the disparity aren't how the game runs. You do not PvP fighters versus a caster alone.
High level fighter has a ring of free action. Eliminates a huge number of spells useable againsthim. He's buffed with death ward eliminates another series of effects. He has fly active from a magic item or friendly caster. He usually has a healer debuffing and keeping him alive. He usually has a magic item or buff to see thorough invisibility. If he gets one hit on Mr. Opponent caster, he does well over 200 points of damage at lvl 21. That is usually enough to kill most casters in one hit or close to it.
This is a party game, not a solo game. Casters can do a lot, but they aren't the gods you make them out to be. They occasionally get to shine really bright when one of their cool spells work. That is no different than a martial shining bright when he lands a huge crit. The best tactic most casters have is to debuff the enemy and let martials rip them apart.
Stop using the fighter as some kind of baseline. The fighter is the simplest fantasy archetype in the game: the master of physical weapons. [I}Pathfinder[/I] designs classes according to fantasy archetypes, not with a focus on every class being able to do what every other class can do. That is why every martial isn't the same. Grouping them all together into tiers is ridiculous. Some martials are far more effective than others. Gear also factors into martials and differing builds.
You may be a guy who plays gimp martials. In the campaigns I run, martials are a huge pain in the behind. I have an easier time challenging casters. You can stop a caster with a high SR, immunity to spells or spell-like effects, energy resistance, or the like. Even 20 Epic DR is nothing to a high level martial. They tear through DR like it's rice paper.
How about playing a few high level martials before you make them out to be gimp. They certainly are not gimpy at all. All this talk of narrative power is a joke. Most adventures are straight-forward get to point A to point B to point C and kill stuff. The little caster is responsible for getting them to those points and the martial gets to do the killing.
Why do you think every caster wins initiative? Not every caster is a diviner. Not every martial ignores having a high initiative. A paladin doesn't always need to win initiative. The NPC caster is dealing with multiple threats. He gets one action around and maybe a quickened spell. If he uses that action to stop the Magus or Wizard, then the paladin flies right in and hammers him. No need to win initiative. That emphasizes again that this is a group game, not a solo game. You seem to want classes designed like this is a solo game.
Last encounter I ran was a lvl 14 witch and a lvl 13 witch backed up by a lvl 14 Blood Knight and lvl 12 fighter/ex-paladin. They were in a room without much maneuverability.
Paladin activated his winged boots and used his blessing of fervor for extra movement, flew to her, smote her, and dropped her to 10 hit points in one round. That poor, poor martial. I guess if he hadn't won initiative, he might have given her time to erect better defenses.
So your pre-buffed martial character failed to kill a single opponent in a multi opponent fight in a single round. Meanwhile the sorcerer neuters the entire room with a single Dazing Chain Lightning.
Colour me unimpressed.
Everyone was buffed. PC and NPC.
I would have loved a Dazing Chain Lightning. Witches have extremely high Will saves. And they can buff against energy attacks. If the attack does no damage, Dazing means nothing. I guess you forget stuff like that when you don't actually ever get to use Dazing Spell with a character. Since I actually use these feats, I know when they are most useful and when they are not. They are not particularly useful against high Will Save enemies like opponent casters.
You know? No save against Smite Evil. Nothing stands against Smite Evil.
Aren't all your caster vs. martial fights with a caster fully buffed and prepared? I guess a martial that takes the time to buff and prepare shouldn't count? Even though they have access to items and usually a friendly caster to buff them up.
Colour me unimpressed with your understanding of how a party interacts in combat at high level.
High level casters don't use Save or Dies, they use No Save - Just Lose spells and while Martials still have to contend with things like AC, Miss Chance, the fact that their opponent can move father then them and cast two spells in the same rounds, and target them from over 300 ft. away, and even if the martial gets close they have to fight through minions, make it a very time to be a martial. I have literally never wasted a round casting Maze or Limited Wish duplicating Geas/Quest. Ever. And since you can do both of those in the same round, the caster just took two people out of the fight, no rolling required.I use save or suck all the time but then the combination of high casting stat, greater spell focus, arcane school power and persistent spell means most times they are looking at next to no chance to save when you target their weaker saves and a very high chance of failure even against good ones. Once spell perfection enters the mix you can pretty much say good bye to saving ever again unless you are a very specialist build.
Not true at all.
Most opponents have stat boosting items, high saves, high resist items, and other bonuses from class abilities or buffs that make their saves very good against all attacks.
Even a caster that focuses on building up his spellcasting stat will find opponents make their saves.
Also do you run with active Arcane Sight or better and do you make sure you are fully aware of the opponents protections? Or do you waste spells all the time on opponents buffed to resist you or turn your own spells back on you? So you're attacking your own weak save.
It's not as easy you make it seem.
Ther disparity is there, not sure what more is to say about it existence.Casters have absurd spells.
That shuts down a martial strategy.
But not intended as a discussion of Martial/Caster Disparity.
I don't follow.
Is the disparity there in the group dynamic or only amongst those who seem to play the game wanting to PvP fighters vs. wizards?
I see now Dazing Spell would have went off Dex for chain lightning. I would still welcome a spell over a Smite Evil. The opponents were well informed of the parties capabilities and would have been ready for a Dazing chain lightning. In fact they were ready to destroy the first caster they saw. The paladin flew in first and hammered her.
That's usually how a party works. The opponent is gummed up with the martials. The casters get to launch their spells from behind a meat wall. If the opposing casters don't deal with the martials, they're dead. Either way the martial either kills them with straight damage or the caster gets them with some spell that makes it easier for the martial to kill them.
That is how the party dynamic works most of the time. That's why fickle winds doesn't bother me. A caster must either stop the damage or die. Spells like stoneskin at high level are worthless. Martial carve right through that spell. Most of the high level casters (PC or NPC) use spells like invisibility, mirror image, or displacement. Better to not be hit than absorb a measly 10 points of damage.
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Is the disparity there in the group dynamic or only amongst those who seem to play the game wanting to PvP fighters vs. wizards?The PvP discussions are a distraction. I am far more interested in the ability of characters to contribute to real game situations. Whether that is asking how a particular character fights the Fickle Winds using, long range attacking, spell casting dragon or helps locate and rescue the Duke's kidnapped daughter or slow down an invading army of orcs. Spell Casters have a massive range of options to contribute to these. Fighters don't.
And fighters shouldn't. That's not what their archetype is built for. Just like everyone else shouldn't be as good with weapons.
Why should everyone have such options? It doesn't fit their archetype. That's never been adequately explained other than "It's not balanced." Pathfinder has clearly stated they are not engaging in class design with "balance" in mind. "Balance" meaning everyone is equally effective in all situations. They are designing effective and appropriate archetypes. That means a class does what it is supposed to do very well. Fighters fight. They do it very well.
That means every class will not have the same range of options as others. They never will. Hoping this will be the case in Pathfinder is a fruitless debate.
That is why you as a DM should tailor the adventure to the characters present. Not every party is going to be the same. They won't have the same capabilities. It is up to you as a DM to create scenarios where each character can shine. It is in fact your job to do so. It is not Paizo's job to take into account every possible option available to every possible character and try to make them all relatively equal because that would be impossible.
Only the DM knows what his players can and cannot do. For example, I run a group right now with only a pure cleric caster. The group consists of a Ninja, Magus, Paladin, Cleric, and Monk. I design encounters to make this fun for that group. The Cleric does not dominate everything as people on here would make it seem.
In real games players work as a group. There are so many options available to both casters and martials that it is impossible to determine the exact impact each will have. These players claiming martials can't do much sound insane. The martials I run do plenty.
About the only part I would agree with is that fighters could use more skill points and another good save. Seems almost every martial gets two good saves or a save boosting ability except the fighter and rogue. Those two classes should be brought up to par with the other marital classes as far as saving throws go. The fighter should have some skill flexibility being a soldier.
As far as adding strange magical capabilities to the fighter, I want none of that. The fighter is the mundane fighting man archetype. The soldier. He's the master of weapons. He gets power from his magic items.
The way a DM should add to his abilities is with a powerful magic item, usually an artifact or something of the kind. I always give my martials a powerful weapon and some nice armor. Every martial wants their Excalibur or Gáe Bulg.
When [I[]fickle winds[/I] came out, I gave my party archer an artifact bow with blindsense, seeking, and the ability to cast greater dispel magic three times per day as a swift action. I've always looked at magic as an arms race. If martials have to deal with casters, then the gods and martials themselves would find ways to fight against them, usually by acquiring powerful weapons that allow them to counter a casters defenses.
Gear is a major reason players like martials. One thing about casters is their toys are their spells. Items are usually inferior choices for them, even a staff. Martials get the cool, shiny toys. As a DM I tend to make them very effective and fun. So they'll get the feel of being an Arthur or Elric.
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It would be nice if the 3e/PF paradigm wasn't 'let's make this stuff overpowered then give it a silver bullet'.
Agreed.
Except, archery really isn't overpowered, which makes it even more frustrating.
And the things with "silver bullets" seem to always be martial stuff.
And the "silver bullets" themselves are almost always spells (and if there is a martial "silver bullet," it is often relatively easy to neuter)
And fighters shouldn't. That's not what their archetype is built for. Just like everyone else shouldn't be as good with weapons.
Why should everyone have such options? It doesn't fit their archetype. That's never been adequately explained other than "It's not balanced." Pathfinder has clearly stated they are not engaging in class design with "balance" in mind. "Balance" meaning everyone is equally effective in all situations. They are designing effective and appropriate archetypes. That means a class does what it is supposed to do very well. Fighters fight. They do it very well.
That means every class will not have the same range of options as others. They never will. Hoping this will be the case in Pathfinder is a fruitless debate.
That is why you as a DM should tailor the adventure to the characters present. Not every party is going to be the same. They won't have the same capabilities. It is up to you as a DM to create scenarios where each character can shine. It is in fact your job to do so. It is not Paizo's job to take into account every possible option available to every possible character and try to make them all relatively equal because that would be impossible.
Only the DM knows what his players can and cannot do. For example, I run a group right now with only a pure cleric caster. The group consists of a Ninja, Magus, Paladin, Cleric, and Monk. I design encounters to make this fun for that group. The Cleric does not dominate everything as people on here would make it seem.
In real games players work as a group. There are so many options available to both casters and martials that it is impossible to determine the exact impact each will have. These players claiming martials can't do much sound insane. The martials I run do plenty.
About the only part I would agree with is that fighters could use more skill points and another good save. Seems almost every martial gets two good saves or a save boosting ability except the fighter and rogue. Those two classes should be brought up to par with the other marital classes as far as saving throws go. The fighter should have some skill flexibility being a soldier.
As far as adding strange magical capabilities to the fighter, I want none of that. The fighter is the mundane fighting man archetype. The soldier. He's the master of weapons. He gets power from his magic items.
The way a DM should add to his abilities is with a powerful magic item, usually an artifact or something of the kind. I always give my martials a powerful weapon and some nice armor. Every martial wants their Excalibur or Gáe Bulg.
When fickle winds came out, I gave my party archer an artifact bow with blindsense, seeking, and the ability to cast greater dispel magic three times per day as a swift action. I've always looked at magic as an arms race. If martials have to deal with casters, then the gods and martials themselves would find ways to fight against them, usually by acquiring powerful weapons that allow them to counter a casters defenses.
Gear is a major reason players like martials. One thing about casters is their toys are their spells. Items are usually inferior choices for them, even a staff. Martials get the cool, shiny toys. As a DM I tend to make them very effective and fun. So they'll get the feel of being an Arthur or Elric.
Ironically, Fighters aren't even a master of weapons. They're the master of a single weapon. Using many weapons is something every other martial does better.
Ther disparity is there, not sure what more is to say about it existence.Casters have absurd spells.
That shuts down a martial strategy.
But not intended as a discussion of Martial/Caster Disparity.
I don't follow.
Is the disparity there in the group dynamic or only amongst those who seem to play the game wanting to PvP fighters vs. wizards?
Who is talking about PVP or theorycraft? Since you evidently did not realize it. My post was a simple discussion of high level tactics. The fact that you seem to think such basic things are theorycraft or "PVP" bodes ill for your understanding of the material. Please note which topics you misunderstood below and I'll attempt to explain it in an easier to understand manner.
Do you need me to explain it again why caster can and should be reliable buffed to the hilt at high levels or is this to "theoretical" for you?
Do you need me to explain again why casters will almost certainly be going first in a fight or is this to "PVP"?
Do you need me to explain why basic high level caster tactics make engaging them in melee extremely difficult or is this to PVretical?
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Who is talking about PVP or theorycraft? Since you evidently did not realize it. My post was a simple discussion of high level tactics. The fact that you seem to think such basic things are theorycraft or "PVP" bodes ill for your understanding of the material. Please note which topics you misunderstood below and I'll attempt to explain it in an easier to understand manner.
Do you need me to explain it again why caster can and should be reliable buffed to the hilt at high levels or is this to "theoretical" for you?
Do you need me to explain again why casters will almost certainly be going first in a fight or is this to "PVP"?
Do you need me to explain why basic high level caster tactics make engaging them in melee extremely difficult or is this to PVretical?
I have to call their high level play into question, as at about CR 13+, everything you fight is nearly a caster in some capacity. There's not a huge variety of creatures at that level that don't have some kind of suite of spell like abilities, and to challenge characters at that level, you really need some magical tricks to deal with everything that the party has to offer since magic gives flexible options.