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One of the things you can do is make sure you role play your NPCs. It'll be uncomfortable at first, but make sure to make eye contact and directly ask questions of individual players. That will help them realize that a response is necessary.
As far as not understanding mechanics, that's just gonna take a little bit of time. Just try to stick as close to the rules as you can, and be patient. And never tell your players they can absolutely NOT do something they want to do. Just explain to them what they need to be able to do something, and make sure they understand consequences. "So you want to charge that minotaur. Well, you can absolutely do that, but let me explain about 'reach' and 'attacks of opportunity.' Would you still like to charge? Okay, so that didn't work out real well. Now we get to cover something I like to call 'constitution checks.'"
As for your rogue, it sounds he really wants the rogue talent Hide in Plain Sight. Explain how he can go about getting that talent.
And even though you didn't ask, here's a free piece of advice I tell all my new GMs: accept the fact that you are gonna occasionally make mistakes. Just try to move on without getting too bogged down, and make it a fun experience.
I always tell players they can become any fantasy hero, but they start out a begginer.
If you want them to roleplay get one experienced player to comein and play a game with them so they understand.
I guess someone should also point out that there nothing that prevents you from playing the game the way that your players want to. The best thing about Pathfinder its is adaptability -- something that an MMORPG lacks. You could simply give in and "house rule" that you players abilities play the way that they expect them to.
I currently run a game for a bunch of teenagers that were raised on games like WoW. I adapted the game to play more like warcraft and they love it. Eventually they even liked the game enough to read the rules. And over time they came to see the value of the standard way of playing.
I wouldn't try to force the "in character" stuff on them. They will get there eventually.
Nick: Good idea, I'll try that. I suppose I could reenforce the mechanics and rash actions with consequences that would make them think twice about trying to do something "special", like digging in a orc latrine to find treasure. (true story) Thanks!!
Finlanderboy: Great idea!! know where I can find some? :P
Depends on where you are. If you find some local PFSers that you like bring them in for a game or more.
Trying to get players who are used to MMOs without a boardgame background can be a bit daunting. I would suggest you focus on trying to improve either their roleplaying or their "gaming" first as trying to do both, especially as a new GM, can be incredibly challenging.
RP: For people coming from a heavy MMO background, getting into RP can be difficult. The majority of MMO players don't get into the "roleplay" of their character; instead they're just fantastic extensions of themselves. It puts more of a burden on you, but you'll need to provide a lot of the atmospheric interactions and interesting NPCs to converse with.
One thought that comes to mind is having your players put aside their main characters a session and play We Be Goblins. It's incredibly flavorful and its hard not to get into the Roleplaying an insane goblin.
Gaming: An alternate is to play scenarios that are a bit more "dungeon crawl" to focus on getting down mechanics first. Citadel of the Flame is a good start and I'm sure there's a few others. Anything with Feast, Matrimony, or other social gathering probably would be lost on your players. As for "board" related issues, getting them to be emotionally invested in their miniature is useful. It helps if they get a feel that it is *their* character. You can still help out with movement as necessary.
I understand letting the players have the freedom to play in their own way, but how do I balance that with (I would think a reasonable expecation) to at least act in a more "realistic" way? I don't think I should be able to let them melee attack with a dagger from 20ft away (happens al
Someone pointed out above that you are specifically asking about a Society game, which requires that you run the game according to the standard rules. So My first suggestion would be to run a "home game" (i.e. Pathfinder according to whatever rules you guys can agree to).
As far as playing "correctly" be sure to simply coach them. Explain to them that with need to move into hand to hand range before they can melee. If they forgot to do it one time just give them a chance to take the turn over.
Don't be afraid to change the rules to make the game play more like an MMO. You can easily jettison little things like spell components, encumbrance, etc or even large things like rest and recovery if it makes it more fun for the players.
I wouldn't worry about having players play in character at all. It is something that might happen naturally over time as you play or maybe the players never develop the knack for it. Pathfinder is perfectly fun as a tactical board game. MMO players will love the added freedom to problem solve that the game provides.
Have fun.
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The single most important thing to me is to be willing to learn on the job as a GM. Despite (and perhaps because of) the fact that I've been playing since 3.0 dropped, I still get a lot of mechanical help from players. I forget things, get things backwards, etc. There is NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS. Just don't be a jerk and try to making "rulings" when the rules are quite clear on the topic.
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The single most important thing to me is to be willing to learn on the job as a GM. Despite (and perhaps because of) the fact that I've been playing since 3.0 dropped, I still get a lot of mechanical help from players. I forget things, get things backwards, etc. There is NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS. Just don't be a jerk and try to making "rulings" when the rules are quite clear on the topic.Agreed. I do try to be lienieant and not make rulings that are condratictory to the rules, and be fair with my judgements, even when they may break my adventure.
I've had "bosses" in PFS not even touch the PCs before. It happens. This isn't homebrew, and you have less ability to things mechanically challenging.
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OP, are you running with a map and grid? Seems to me if they can see they are twenty feet away and they say, "I attack it with my dagger," you can simply reply with, "OK, you swing your dagger, but as you can see you are 20' away from the monster and you miss. Now it is Bill's turn."
Or, "You cast the fireball. Unfortunately, you are standing behind Bill. It explodes into his back and you all take 6d6 fire damage. Make your reflex save."
I don't see how players could not adjust their play styles accordingly, unless they just want to d*** around.
Always make sure their actions have consequenses. If the rogue says, "I sneak into the brightly lit empty room that the dragon is in," say, "Ok, roll your stealth. All right, you got a 28 with your roll of 20! Unfortunately, because you aren't hiding behind anything that would grant you cover and there are no shadows to conceal yourself, the dragon looks at you, chuckles, and blasts you with his fire breath. Make a reflex save."
If dead PCs don't encourage them to pay attention to the rules (both of the game and of life in general), then they are playing the way they want to play, Keystone Kops-style, which is fine, but is sounds like you don't want to play that way, in which case you may want to find more like-minded players.
Your responsibility as the GM is to allow the players to make their own decisions, but also to allow them to have both positive AND negative (realistic) repurcussions because of their actions. Otherwise, what is the point of playing?
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Bad Sintax, while I had to chuckle - it's just horrible advice.
First off, you are simply not allowed to hit your friend in the back with a fireball in PFS. No PvP except when all affected players agree that it's necessary (or just cool).
Instantly killing a player who is new to the game and misinterprets stealth rules is another great path to all the "Worst GM ever"-threads.
I agree about the grid, though. It helps to just SEE where everybody stands, but I honestly never had a player (in ANY game) assume that attacking someone several squares away was even an option. Even Risk does not allow that.
While the dead PC meatgrinder might be fine for some players, it's a sure thing so scare people off of PFS. Bad, bad, bad idea.
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Blackbot, if you will notice, while this is in the PFS section, the OP is talking about his home game, not PFS, and trying to get his players acclimated to tabletop RPGs in general. It doesn't have anything to do with PFS.
YMMV on my advice, but the OP was asking how to get his players to make decisions based on the rules. The way to do that is to show the consequenses of their decisions.
Plus, if you as the GM explain the rules of Stealth to the players and the player does it anyway, expecting a different result (which seems to be what the OP was saying, unless I am misinterpreting), then you are on a great path towards one of the "worst Player ever" threads.
In addition, what do you think the result would be if one of the OP's players ever actually goes to a convention to play PFS - where rules are mandated? How do you think it would go over when the player argues and says, "You can't see me, I'm in stealth mode like in WOW," while in a brightly lit hallway?
Would the convention GM say, "Oh, ok, I don't want to put you off PFS, so sure whatever you say." while the other players sit around and go, "Wha?" I don't think that would be the case. In fact, the idea made me chuckle.
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Blackbot, if you will notice, while this is in the PFS section, the OP is talking about his home game, not PFS, and trying to get his players acclimated to tabletop RPGs in general. It doesn't have anything to do with PFS.
I do apologize. I was under the impression that his home games were still PFS home games and somehow completly missed his post correcting that statement. It's fairly late here (GMT+1), sorry.
Under these circumstances I also apologize for calling your advice "horrible". Now I will merely call it "draconic", though I assume you exaggerated for effect ;)
Plus, if you as the GM explain the rules of Stealth to the players and the player does it anyway, expecting a different result (which seems to be what the OP was saying, unless I am misinterpreting), then you are on a great path towards one of the "worst Player ever" threads.
Having some MMORPG experiences myself I can see why he would think stealth works that way and I do believe that there should be a warning first. When a player assumes something that is obviously wrong (like misunderstanding how stealth works, how spells work, how wide a bridge is etc.) I don't think you should let them fail miserably before at least warning them. Except when it's for comedic effect. ;)
In addition, what do you think the result would be if one of the OP's players ever actually goes to a convention to play PFS - where rules are mandated? How do you think it would go over when the player argues and says, "You can't see me, I'm in stealth mode like in WOW," while in a brightly lit hallway?
Would the convention GM say, "Oh, ok, I don't want to put you off PFS, so sure whatever you say." while the other players sit around and go, "Wha?" I don't think that would be the case. In fact, the idea made me chuckle.
So we made each other chuckle, that's a plus! ;)
I can see both our interpretations in the first post - maybe the player falsely assumed it worked "the MMO way", maybe he started a discussion about it because he wanted it to work like in an MMO and did not want to play by more realistic rules. Clarification needed, I guess.Again, I don't mean the OP should just give in and use their expectations of the rules.
I just think punishment for a simple misunderstanding of the rules shouldn't be the first thing to try. I for once would be pretty annoyed if I started playing a game with unknown rules, misunderstanding one of them and geting screwed (not knowing that standing up provokes an AoO) and/or killed (dragon's breath) as a result. There's a difference between "Okay, you 'stealthed' down the brightly lit hallway, the kobolds saw you and raised the alarm." and "The hallway is brightly lit, you will probably be seen when entering this way, no matter how sneaky you are."
Print out a bunch of copies of this Pathfinder combat flowchart so they know what basic actions they can do, then expand from there.
You need to explain to the rouge that in this game his so called snake mode relies on an an opposed check, his stealth vs his opponents perception. If they beat him then his sneaking has failed. And for walking into open rooms he needs to understand that he can't sneak in plain view unless he has the ability "hiding in plain sight". I dread he finds a way to get it because it can he confusing for a new GM and you will likely play it wrong for quite some time.
As for melee from 20ft, I don't know how they don't understand that one. You could get a measuring tape and put 20' in between you and tell them to hit you I guess. Seems like a no grained though lol. Perhaps explain to them that each creature has a reach, usually determined by its race or choice of weapon. Medium creatures usually only have a 5' reach. They can overcome this with a reach weapons or the "lunge" feat. "Lunge" is awesome btw.
Fireball however certainly can be cast with an ally in front of the caster. Ranged attacks impose a -4 if there are creatures between you and the target. However because fireball doesn't require any type of attack roll it does not impose the -4. If it required a ranged touch attack it would, but it doesn't, it grants a reflex save instead.
When it comes to getting yur players to RP, good luck lol. That ones on you. I'm not very good at it either. I try to encourage it myself but I don't push to hard. I hate metagaming though. I usually do my best to take that option away. I do this countless ways. Examples: sometimes if I need them to make a save I'll have them make it 10 minutes ahead of time, that way they aren't questioning what they just failed and try to figure it out. If they do they're wasting their time cuz it hasn't even happened yet. I'll also change stuff on the fly if I catch them metagaming. There's many other things I do to but I'm drawing a blank for some reason. Ifni think of more things I've done I'll post them
I guess someone should also point out that there nothing that prevents you from playing the game the way that your players want to. The best thing about Pathfinder its is adaptability -- something that an MMORPG lacks. You could simply give in and "house rule" that you players abilities play the way that they expect them to.
I currently run a game for a bunch of teenagers that were raised on games like WoW. I adapted the game to play more like warcraft and they love it. Eventually they even liked the game enough to read the rules. And over time they came to see the value of the standard way of playing.
I wouldn't try to force the "in character" stuff on them. They will get there eventually.
this is certainly fine, but I would strongly advise against it as a new GM. Learn the rules well befor you change them
I have an oddball suggestion: play a different game.
I think Pathfinder is a great game, but it's a lot to take in and can be difficult to both teach and learn at the same time. There are a lot of rules and it's easy to miss stuff, especially when you're new to role-playing in general.
Another favorite game of mine is Dungeon World. It's a very simple system, there's a lot less to keep track of. It is also a good game IMO for breaking MMO habits. The rules are simple and very straight forward. It will also teach you some good habits as a GM.
As the "process of role-playing" becomes more natural for the group, using a more mechanically complex game like Pathfinder becomes easier, since you aren't trying to get into the role-playing mindset while also learning the rules.
Playing PF with a majority of experienced players is easier to teach one or two newer people (you can even teach a GM that way!). For an entirely new group to gaming though, I think a simpler game is a better approach.
Also, with Dungeon World, there's only one book available, and you don't need a copy for everyone at the table, so it's not a large financial investment to get started.