Discordant Voice + Virtuoso Performance

[Ogadim]

Discordant Voice:

Discordant Voice
By singing out a precise tone, you cause discordant vibrations to run through allies' weapons.
Prerequisites: Bardic performance class feature, Perform (oratory or sing) 10 ranks.
Benefit: Whenever you are using bardic performance to create a spell-like or supernatural effect, allies within 30 feet of you deal an extra 1d6 points of sonic damage with successful weapon attacks. This damage stacks with other energy damage a weapon might deal. Projectile weapons bestow this extra damage on their ammunition, but the extra damage is dealt only if the projectile hits a target within 30 feet of you.

Virtuoso Performance:

VIRTUOSO PERFORMANCE
School transmutation; Level bard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 round/level
While this spell is active, you may start a second bardic performance while maintaining another. Starting the second performance costs 2 rounds of bardic performance instead of 1. Maintaining both performances costs a total of 3 rounds of bardic performance for each round they are maintained. When this spell ends, one of the performances ends immediately (your choice).

Virtuoso performance does not stack with any other method of maintaining simultaneous bardic performances.

Does Discordant Voice work in a binary fashion where you either do or do not have a performance enabled to gain its effect, or does it create separate instances that stack allowing a Bard to grant +2d6 sonic damage while maintaining 2 performances with Virtuoso Performance? If it is the latter, would a Shadowbard, being a shadowy duplicate of yourself, enable you to bump it up to +3d6?

[strayshift]

Not sure. I suspect Virtuoso is intended to be different TYPES of performance, however the Discordant Voice kicks in when you "create a spell-like or supernatural effect" so in theory you could inspire courage and competence and get the bonus damage twice. The question is does it stack? Given that is it is 3 rounds of performance, a feat and a 4th or 5th level Bard Spell (in the case of Shadowbard) for an extra +1d6 or +2d6 damage I'd be inclined to go with it (it's probably only going to benefit one or two allies at best).

Dotting.

[Ogadim]

strayshift wrote:

Not sure. I suspect Virtuoso is intended to be different TYPES of performance, however the Discordant Voice kicks in when you "create a spell-like or supernatural effect" so in theory you could inspire courage and competence and get the bonus damage twice. The question is does it stack? Given that is it is 3 rounds of performance, a feat and a 4th or 5th level Bard Spell (in the case of Shadowbard) for an extra +1d6 or +2d6 damage I'd be inclined to go with it (it's probably only going to benefit one or two allies at best).

Dotting.

Yes. It is indeed quite an investment to pull off and only for about a minute each day at full potential. I just want to know precisely what the full potential is. Right now as a 10 Bard/1 Oracle of Lore (for the Sidestep Secret and Lore Keeper revelations), she can have Good Hope, Haste, Inspire Courage +2, Dirge of Doom, and Discordant Voice all active within 2 rounds (assuming Good Hope was already buffed precombat). The question really comes down to deciding if Discordant Voice gives the 1d6 sonic damage per performance or as an all-or-nothing feat. I, of course, like to read it as per performance since it states it stacks with other energy damage implying that it could stack with itself. Are there any other feats with similar wording?

[Zahmahkibo]

All-or-nothing. Discordant Voice doesn't trigger off a specific action, such as scoring a critical hit or casting a spell. It's a continuous effect that checks a binary condition.

Boilerplate about the the fluff and balance making a good argument for a houserule, but RAW being clear.

[agnelcow]

I'm inclined to agree with Zahmahkibo on this one: Discordant Voice only cares if you are maintaining a performance and gives a bonus based on that rather than counting how many performances are maintained and rewarding each; that is, maintaining more performances doesn't cause DV to go "Oh my, how impressive, please add sonic damage twice, you inventive scoundrel!" but to continue going "Yes, you are performing, here's the 1d6 damage I promised".

I would be open to arguments from a player that DV was written with the core assumption of "one bard, one performance" in mind and that it should be able to scale with characters that break that core assumption, but that is a matter of houseruling and I'd be wary to implement it given the relative strength of Sonic damage.

[Abyssian]

Ogadim, I'm actually playing the same character in WotR, just with two more levels of bard at the moment. Same one-level dip into same mystery for the same revelations.

OK, important thing: Discordant Voice is either applied or is not; it can not be applied by the same source (same character) more than once. Virtuoso performance and shadowbard can't give you +3d6 sonic to weapon damage.

The feat is written, like feats generally are, in a kind of "Paizo shorthand," which frees up the word count and allows for publishable material, but does little to spell out the exact rules interactions, limits, or intent.

As I was writing this response, I realized another question. Can two bards with 10+ ranks in Sing or Oratory and both take DV to and perform (even the same performance) to apply the +1d6 sonic twice? Hmmm...

[Gauss]

This would fall under the general rule that multiple effects of the same type do not stack. Two Discordant Voices (say from two bards) would not stack since they are the same effect.

[Thymus Vulgaris]

Discordant Voice grants an untyped bonus (the damage is sonic, but the bonus is untyped) and does stack.

Quote:

Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.

One bard is maintaining two performances. Does each performance provide a bonus 1d6 of sonic damage? Not even looking at the scopes of Discordant Voice... no, because the bonuses come from the same source (the bard).

Two bards are maintaining one performance each. Both have DV. Do the bonuses stack for 2d6 now? Yes, because each bard counts as his own source for the bonus.
(Or no, because the source of the bonuses is still the same feat, depending on your interpretation of the rules. Ask your GM.)

[Ogadim]

After further reading, I am also starting to lean towards a binary reading of the feat. Primarily because of the line of text "Whenever you are using bardic performance" as opposed to "Whenever you start a bardic performance" makes it look like the feat is checking whether or not you have a performance going but not activating for each performance separately.

[Gauss]

Thymus Vulgaris, you are correct they stack unless from the same source. And they are from the same source: Discordant Voice is the source, not the bard.

It is just like stacking two untyped bonuses from two castings of the same spell. Ie: They do not stack because they are the same spell.

[TyrKnight]

I don't think stacking rules come into play normally. Do you have a bardic performance going? Yes. Add 1d6. It's not dependent on the number of performances. I agree with others who say so.

Outside of that, I think that two performances from two different bards each apply their effects. It's not a typed bonus. But discordant voice doesn't create a second bard.