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I've never made a Cleric before, but I'm trying to put one together for a really tough campaign we're going to start soon. The rest of the party include two Human Paladins (Oath of Vengeance both), a Human Sorcerer (Arcane Bloodline) and a Human Arcane Duelist. I'm supposed to be the de facto leader and kind of a 'favored daughter' of the church.
My first thought was to focus primarily on buffing and healing, so I took the Heroism subdomain (Glory) and the Restoration subdomain (Healing). Both seem ideally suited to group needs and to my concept. I also made the character an Aasimar, more to keep from having an all-human party and to fit the storyline a little better...
...but then I got to trying to figure out what to do when I wasn't healing or buffing. With my physical stats being just average, I couldn't make an effective martial combatant in melee or at range, nor were there any legitimate spammable Cleric spells that suited. My husband often runs Summoners of different types and I remembered that Cleric summoners were supposed to be a viable option - along with buffs and healing that sounded ideal.
So, I kind of pre-built the character this way - we're starting at 7th level:
1st - Fey Foundling
3rd - Selective Channeling
5th - Summon Good Monster
7th - Sacred Summons
9th - Spell Focus: Conjuration
11th - Augment Summoning
13th - Superior Summoning
15th - Quicken Spell
17th - Extra Channel
19th - Extra Channel
The two Paladins and I all decided to take Fey Foundling together, re-flavored as a boon of our Order - in part for the mechanical benefit, in part because it suited the concepts we shared. There are some other things we're doing similarly as well when it comes to gear and play.
After Selective Channeling, I figured Summon Good Monster would allow me more opportunities to use Sacred Summons - I want to try to only summon archons if possible - and then I'd take Augment and Superior Summoning as quickly as possible, once the onerous Spell Focus pre-req was selected. I noticed that Sacred Summons as is seems to only really favor Lawful Evil casters - why is it?
I know that a number of people on the boards have experience with Clerics as Summoners - is this a good way to go about it, or are there better examples I could follow? My thought was to basically summon one creature each combat as my 'stand-in' while I focused on healing and whatnot, only spamming in emergencies. Also, any advice when it comes to tactics or play-style would also be appreciated.
Thanks in advance. :)
Have you looked at the Evangelist archetype for clerics? It is pretty good for summoning. You only get one domain, but get a few bardic performances instead that help buff.
You could also build towards spell perfection (Summon Monster IX), which would let you double Augment Summoning's stat bumps for anything you ever want to summon. Not sure if adding an additional creature from Superior Summoning would count as a "fixed numerical bonus" though.
This is all IMHO, of course.
As a feat-starved cleric, I probably wouldn't get Fey Foundling, although work something similar as backstory, just without the mechanical benefits. It's awesome for swift lay on hands with a paladin, not so much everyone else. I probably also wouldn't bother with selective Channel. With 2 paladins, you'll rarely need in-combat healing. Maybe variant channelling rules?
I would, instead, work to get augment summoning ASAP
Summon Good Monster is basically a feat tax for Sacred Summons...
1st - Spell Focus Tax: Conjuration
3rd - Augment Summoning
5th - Summon Good Monster
7th - Sacred SummonsI would normally suggest scribe scroll at 9th so you have some status removal, however superior summons is also tempting (1d3+1 Augmented diehard hound archon goons instantly appear around an enemy...)
We had all kind of agreed on the Fey Foundling thing as being a hallmark of the religious order of Knights (Paladins) and Clerics, but its not set in stone and you're right about being feat-starved. Perhaps we'll make it only Paladins who take the feat... you're also probably right about not needing combat healing at all, though we thought the 'layered' healing would help against some of the more difficult threats we face. It does seem like I'd be of greater use summoning than healing, if past experiences are any guide.
Have you looked at the Evangelist archetype for clerics? It is pretty good for summoning. You only get one domain, but get a few bardic performances instead that help buff.
I actually did at first, but once we added a Bard the need for it kind of went out the window. The only Cleric our group has ever run before this was a crazy dwarf who ran an Evangelist and took the Madness Domain.
You could also build towards spell perfection (Summon Monster IX), which would let you double Augment Summoning's stat bumps for anything you ever want to summon. Not sure if adding an additional creature from Superior Summoning would count as a "fixed numerical bonus" though.
That's a very, very interesting idea - I will have some later feat slots available which I was just going to use for Extra Channeling... I didn't realize that the Augment bonus applied but it makes sense. Would Maximize spell give you the maximum number of summoned creatures if you were to summon from a lower list?
Both maximize and empower should work on any of the SM spells, save for SM I. After SM I, all the summons have a random, die rolled effect to determine the number of monsters summoned.
Granted, applying either feat when you use the spell to summon monsters of the highest list is a waste of spell slots.
Both maximize and empower should work on any of the SM spells, save for SM I. After SM I, all the summons have a random, die rolled effect to determine the number of monsters summoned.
Granted, applying either feat when you use the spell to summon monsters of the highest list is a waste of spell slots.
Yes, but couldn't I - for instance - use Spell Perfection to cast a Quickened Monster Summoning IX to summon a Trumpet Archon (taking advantage of Sacred Summons) and then immediately follow that up using Spell Perfection to cast a Maximized Monster Summoning IX to bring in an additional six Shield Archons, all benefitting from double Augment Summoning?
With that thought in mind, and the advice you've all offered, here's what I'm thinking now (bowing to social convention and going straight Human for the extra feat AND the bonus skill ranks so that I can pay for Spellcraft):
1st - Spell Focus: Conjuration
1st - Augment Summoning
3rd - Summon Good Monster
5th - Sacred Summons
7th - Superior Summoning
9th - Reach Spell
11th - Divine Interference
13th - Quicken Spell
15th - Maximize Spell
17th - Spell Perfection: Summon Monster IX
19th - Improved Initiative
I'm going to go off the beaten path a little bit here and suggest skills as a sort of hidden element to summoners. First of all, Linguistics is important for providing languages to talk with your summoned creatures (will save on having to cast Tongues or that spell that lets you speak with elementals). The elemental languages are of particular use since most elementals can neither speak common nor have any sort of telepathy, with the other planar tongues coming shortly after that in importance.
PF doesn't make summoned animals with the planar simple templates (fiendish, celestial, etc.) magical beasts, so they don't get that int 3 and language that made them so useful before. Summoned monsters won't do anything else but attack your enemies in a fashion not totally directed by you if you can't communicate with them. Getting them to do other stuff requires a Handle Animal check (DC 20 IIRC), so either invest in it or invest in Use Magic Device (using it with a wand of speak with animals).
Finally, check to see if your DM makes you roll knowledge checks to see what your summoned monsters can do. If your dm requires knowledge check, invest in monster-knowledge related skills such as Knowledge (planar) and Knoweldge (nature), perhaps Knowledge (religion) if you'll be wanting to create or summon any undead.
Just wanted to point out that everything summoned by Summon Good Monster is not going to benefit from Sacred Summons, and I would actually dump that feat all things considered as who cares if something that's only going to be around for a few rounds stabilizes or not? Sacred Summons only works on creatures whose alignment subtype exactly matches your divine aura, so your run of the mill celestial critter is still going to take a full round action to summon.
Even if your summons benefit from the maximise and empower spell feats, Spell Perfection does not allow you to use metamagic that would increase the lvl of the spell beyond the 9th lvl.
So maximise spell is probably a waste. I would probably take Highten Spell and Prefered Spell at 19th lvl, although Persistent Spell is a nice alternative for making your save or suck spells viable.
Of course - don't know how I missed that. Ah well, knew it was a little too good to be true. I'll have to look at some different metamagic options if I go that route.
After the 7th lvl or so you are actually stronger than him. Almost as good at summoning, but in addition you are a full divine caster.Now, take all of this and compare with a similar master summoner...
...with Domains, Channeling and better saves no less.
Just wanted to point out that everything summoned by Summon Good Monster is not going to benefit from Sacred Summons, and I would actually dump that feat all things considered as who cares if something that's only going to be around for a few rounds stabilizes or not? Sacred Summons only works on creatures whose alignment subtype exactly matches your divine aura, so your run of the mill celestial critter is still going to take a full round action to summon.
This is technically true, but having seen a Master Summoner in action, it simply can't be discounted the value of getting that Standard action Summons into play... and Summon Good Monster expands the LG Archons option enough to make it viable. In my particular case (Lawful Good), the options that qualify for Sacred Summons at each level would be:
(Sacred Summons gained at 5th level)
5th
1 Lantern Archon
7th
1 Hound Archon
2-4 Lantern Archons
9th
2-4 Hound Archons
3-6 Lantern Archons
11th
1 Legion Archon
13th
1 Shield Archon
2-4 Legion Archons
15th
2-4 Shield Archons
3-6 Legion Archons
17th+
1 Trumpet Archon
All in all that seems worth it to me.
LOL - I was just thinking of this character paired with a Cavalier doing the schtick from 'Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit'...
Just wanted to point out that everything summoned by Summon Good Monster is not going to benefit from Sacred Summons, and I would actually dump that feat all things considered as who cares if something that's only going to be around for a few rounds stabilizes or not? Sacred Summons only works on creatures whose alignment subtype exactly matches your divine aura, so your run of the mill celestial critter is still going to take a full round action to summon.This is technically true, but having seen a Master Summoner in action, it simply can't be discounted the value of getting that Standard action Summons into play... and Summon Good Monster expands the LG Archons option enough to make it viable. In my particular case (Lawful Good), the options that qualify for Sacred Summons at each level would be:
(Sacred Summons gained at 5th level)
5th
1 Lantern Archon7th
1 Hound Archon
2-4 Lantern Archons9th
2-4 Hound Archons
3-6 Lantern Archons11th
1 Legion Archon13th
1 Shield Archon
2-4 Legion Archons15th
2-4 Shield Archons
3-6 Legion Archons17th+
1 Trumpet ArchonAll in all that seems worth it to me.
Looks good to me, just wanted to make sure you knew what you were getting into. I agree though, with a LG cleric and deity, it's still worth it, although maybe not necessary quite so early in your feat progression.
Just to clarify, I'm all for Sacred Summons despite its limitations, especially in the case of a LG cleric with a LG deity like Mercurial's talking about. The expanded list for SGM is nice, but doesn't really come into its own until later levels, and the diehard feat for a summoned monster is kind of pointless. So, for me yes on Sacred Summons, but wait on Summon Good Monster.
Just to clarify, I'm all for Sacred Summons despite its limitations, especially in the case of a LG cleric with a LG deity like Mercurial's talking about. The expanded list for SGM is nice, but doesn't really come into its own until later levels, and the diehard feat for a summoned monster is kind of pointless. So, for me yes on Sacred Summons, but wait on Summon Good Monster.
I do wish the alignment options were more evenly distributed - Summon Good Monsters seems to be a deliberate 'make-up' for the fact that Lawful Evil Devils seem to populate every summons list.
My husband put together twenty-something different themed summoning lists I- IX, for characters intended to be built with a particular concept in mind (Vermin, Fire-based creatures, Undead, Animals, etc.) and the times we've tried them they've worked really, really well.
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@OP Sounds like you have an excellent summoning-themed Cleric. That ought to work out very well.
My only suggestion is that you not be so quick to discard basic martial competence. While it takes a lot of build resources for a Cleric to be a powerful martial combatant, it's easy and cheap to be a competent martial combatant.
For example, just a 14 STR, a two handed weapon, and some buffs can produce decent martial damage numbers for a Cleric. Such a character will not win tournaments, but can hold her own in melee. This small investment changes your character from a tactical liability that your team must protect (so she can get off her spells), to a moderate protector of the team. Damage output won't be huge, but neither will it be trivial. Your spell ability etc. will be completely unhindered. Here's one way a Cleric might accomplish this.
Given your focus on Summoning, you should have build resources to spare. Summoning will eat all your feats, but does not require high Wisdom. One can build a highly effective summoning-focused Cleric with 5 build points: STR 10 DEX 10 CON 10 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 10 ; feats: Spell Focus Tax (1st), Augment Summons(3rd), Sacred Summons(5th), Superior Summons (7th) . For a small up-front build investment you can give your character modest martial ability that will remain useful at high level.
@OP Sounds like you have an excellent summoning-themed Cleric. That ought to work out very well.
My only suggestion is that you not be so quick to discard basic martial competence. While it takes a lot of build resources for a Cleric to be a powerful martial combatant, it's easy and cheap to be a competent martial combatant.
For example, just a 14 STR, a two handed weapon, and some buffs can produce decent martial damage numbers for a Cleric. Such a character will not win tournaments, but can hold her own in melee. This small investment changes your character from a tactical liability that your team must protect (so she can get off her spells), to a moderate protector of the team. Damage output won't be huge, but neither will it be trivial. Your spell ability etc. will be completely unhindered. Here's one way a Cleric might accomplish this.
Given your focus on Summoning, you should have build resources to spare. Summoning will eat all your feats, but does not require high Wisdom. One can build a highly effective summoning-focused Cleric with 5 build points: STR 10 DEX 10 CON 10 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 10 ; feats: Spell Focus Tax (1st), Augment Summons(3rd), Sacred Summons(5th), Superior Summons (7th) . For a small up-front build investment you can give your character modest martial ability that will remain useful at high level.
I appreciate that advice and all of the advice that has been offered - there are a number of options I hadn't considered or even realized were available and some of my misconceptions were cleared away.
I understand what you're saying about being a competent melee threat and I initially planned on doing just that, but unfortunately the character I want to build has more demands than simple summoning. I want her to be an effective channeler, which means charisma. I want her to have a degree of survivability which, in my book, means a bit of Constitution and a bit of Dexterity... and I want her to have more than two skill ranks per level which means Intelligence. I wouldn't officially call the character 'MAD', but it does seem that Strength is the least needed attribute for what I hope to accomplish, and at the end of the day it seems that of my options each combat round - domain abilities, spells, channeling and so forth - making a meager melee swipe would probably be the least effective, especially if it put me directly in harm's way.
I think this is the character build I've finally settled on - thanks again to everyone for their advice.
Aasimar 20th level Cleric (Healing - Restoration & Glory - Heroism)
Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 12
DEX - 12
CON - 12
INT - 12
WIS - 14 (+2 racial modifier, +1 @ 8th, 12th, 16th & 20th)
CHA - 15 (+2 racial modifier, +1 @ 4th level)
Traits:
Blessed Touch (+1 point of healing when Channeling or casting a Cure spell)
Seeker (+1 Perception, Perception is class skill)
Feats:
1st - Spell Focus: Conjuration
3rd - Augment Summoning
5th - Summon Good Monster
7th - Sacred Summons
9th - Superior Summoning
11th - Divine Interference
13th - Quicken Spell
15th - Channeled Revival
17th - Extra Channel
19th - Extra Channel
Equipment (at 7th level):
Breastplate Armor +2, Large Shield +2, Cloak of Resistance +2, Phylactery of Positive Channeling (Holy Symbol)
Skills:
Diplomacy (even levels)
Perception (1-20)
Knowledge - History (odd levels)
Knowledge - Planes (even levels)
Knowledge - Religion (odd levels)
It seemed a waste not to take at least one 'face' skill with such a high Charisma and Diplomacy suited the character concept. She's also the only member of the party with a high Wisdom and the only member with darkvision, so Perception seemed like a good choice to focus on, especially for one who is consumed with discovering the truth about things. As someone raised by the church and 'blessed' with divine outsider aid when she calls for it, the knowledge choices made sense as well. She's supposed to be educated, perceptive and an honored representative of her church, but at the same time has led a fairly cloistered and sheltered lifestyle up to this point, which would explain the lack of effective combat experience. In our campaign world Aasimars are exceedingly rare, and her backstory is something of a wonder, where lantern archons would appear from time to time in her presence when she was a child, at prayer, at play or even watching over her while she slept. It made her something of a celebrity as well as a mystery in the church, but her recent decision to leave that life behind in pursuit of a greater calling - one that has been deemed politically inappropriate - has many both concerned and frustrated.
The character is being built for a Slumbering Tsar campaign, and is using a hook suggested in the beginning of the adventure - discovered letters sent back to the Church of Muir prove that the Paladin Lord Bishu had been left behind to occupy the city and had never been heard from again. She has long suspected that her birth ancestry was tied to the Army of Light and that epic battle, she's become somewhat obsessed over discovering what happened to those forces left behind. The two Paladins in the party - both considered 'troublemakers' within their order, were the only ones willing to accompany her on this fool's errand which is destined to bring to light certain chapters of the Church's history they would prefer be forgotten.
Again, thanks everyone for their advice.
(EDIT: Darn - I edited a previous post rather than making a new one. I had mentioned my concern about making a character who relied on spells targeting DC's when they neither optimized to overcome saves or Spell Resistance.)
How does this look?
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Aasimar 20th level Cleric (Healing - Restoration & Glory - Heroism)
Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 10
DEX - 14
CON - 12
INT - 14
WIS - 14 (+2 racial modifier, +1 @ 8th, 12th, 16th & 20th)
CHA - 13 (+2 racial modifier, +1 @ 4th level)
Traits:
Blessed Touch (+1 point of healing when Channeling or casting a Cure spell)
Seeker (+1 Perception, Perception is class skill)
Feats:
1st - Spell Focus: Conjuration
3rd - Augment Summoning
5th - Summon Good Monster
7th - Sacred Summons
9th - Superior Summoning
11th - Divine Interference
13th - Quicken Spell
15th - Reach Spell
17th - Maximize Spell
19th - Spell Perfection: Breath of Life
Equipment (at 7th level):
Breastplate Armor +2, Large Shield +2, Cloak of Resistance +2, Phylactery of Positive Channeling (Holy Symbol)
Skills:
Diplomacy (even levels)
Perception (1-20)
Knowledge - History (odd levels)
Knowledge - Planes (even levels)
Knowledge - Religion (odd levels)
Spellcraft (1-20)
Reach Spell also lets you use various touch based clerical magic far more offensively. Reach Plane Shift is extremely potent as a will based save or die, especially good against huge brute type monsters that you never want to get close to.
I have to admit that the idea of using Plane Shift as an offensive spell is really intriguing, and it fits in so well with the mechanics and theme of a character already built around summoning extra-planar creatures.
I talked to the person who would be running the Arcane Duelist, and he's been thinking about running an Archeologist instead which has in turn gotten me thinking about running an Evangelist. I started playing around with it and this is what I came up with, using a Human...
Human 20th level Evangelist (Glory/Heroism)
Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 10
DEX - 14
CON - 12
INT - 12
WIS - 16 (+2 racial modifier, +1 @ 8th, 12th, 16th & 20th)
CHA - 11(+1 @ 4th level)
Traits:
Reactionary (+2 Initiative)
Magical Lineage (Plane Shift)
Feats:
1st - Spell Focus: Conjuration
1st - Augment Summoning
3rd - Summon Good Monster
5th - Sacred Summons
7th - Superior Summoning
9th - Reach Spell
11th - Quicken Spell
13th - Piercing Spell
15th - Spell Perfection: Plane Shift
17th - Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration
19th - Divine Interference
Skills:
Spellcraft 1-20
Perform: Oratory 1-20
(additional skills)
With swift action self-healing Paladins and summoned creatures as front-liners, I think healing can be less of a focus than I initially made it out to be. I worry a little about Spell Resistance for targeted spells, hence the Piercing Spell choice. Feats are still very tight, but I think this will make for a much more effective character for the party - the Heroism aura will stack with the Evangelist's Inspire Courage, and I'll focus spell selection on utility-type stuff, relying on between-combat Channels and end-of-day spontaneous spells to supplement our healing.
Figure at 8th level I'll be able to activate the Heroism Aura (+2 Attack, +2 saves) as a swift action, Inspire Courage (+2 Attack, +2 Damage) as a move action and then summon an Augmented Archon as a standard action just to open combat, and unlike a buff like Haste, each of those buffs should work continuously even if I summon additional creatures as needed.
Thoughts?
Summon first, makes sure your summons gain the benefit of your Inspire Courage and Aura. I haven't looked at either ability in a while so it may not be an issue but just in case...:)
Piercing Spell is a great choice but bear in mind it is not doubled by Spell Perfection.
The Summons won't be an issue - the two abilities are more like a continuous aura than a one-shot casting.
Yeah, Piercing won't be doubled but it fills the 3 meta pre-req and addresses a concern regarding Spell Resistance (which I personally hate and find wholly unnecessary to the game).
After the 7th lvl or so you are actually stronger than him. Almost as good at summoning, but in addition you are a full divine caster.Now, take all of this and compare with a similar master summoner...
Not sure I'd go that far - when a Cleric has 1 or 2 of his highest level Summons, a Master Summoner has a dozen or more.
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Looks good, but for Rp purposes and also for stronger perform skills I'd dump strength and take more charisma. You can safely go into the negatives in strength for evangelist. My personal evangelist lineup post racial is usually strength 7, dexterity 14, constitution 12, intelligence 12-14, wisdom 16-18, charisma 14. Go int 12 and Wis 18(post racial) if you want to focus on offensive casting. If you want to focus on buffs, summoning, healing and spells without saves, then you're perfectly fine keeping your starting wis at 16 post racial and taking the 14 int for extra skills. Either way, more cha will help with perform, and unlike the standard cleric which likes to wade into melee with his medium armor you have only light, which means you'll most likely want to hang back and buff/summon. This lessens the value of strength significantly, so it becomes my go-to dump stat for evangelist builds. Just my thoughts, take them for what you will.
There is one other reason for a human cleric: favored class bonus: +1/2 /level to penetrate outsider SR.
I totally missed this - talk about the perfect solution! I figure I'll take the bonus levels 6-15 for +10, taking bonus hit points levels 1-5 and 16-20. Persistent Spell will take the place of Piercing Spell.
I'm really loving how this character has evolved - thank you everyone for your helpful advice.