full arcane caster... natural attack front line fighter?

[Obsidian]

Is a full arcane caster, (witch,sorcerer,wizard) viable as a front line fighter type using natural attacks? I was thinking of a ragebred skinwalker maybe with the scarred witch doctor archetype. Anyways I would love your ideas. If I went sorcerer, I would think going 2 levels of ranger for natural combat could be nice then dragon disciple... But really in would like to explore single class options.

[Claxon]

Not even a little bit. The complete lack of strength and BAB will mean you wont hit anything, and if you tank int to compensate for that you wont be much of a caster. If you want to cast and melee it up you need levels in either Dragon Disciple, Eldritch Knight, or to be a Magus.

Magus is the single class option of casting and melee.

Sorcerer Dragon Disciple will allow you to natural attack and cast it up. If you select the right race with the correct type of SLA, you can qualify for Dragon Disciple and be a wizard/dragon disciple instead of a sorcerer. Preferable in my opinion.

Or you can play wizard/fighter/eldritch knight for BAB and melee ability. The magus shines early on at casting and melee. The Eldritch Knight ends up with the most casting ability out of all of them. The Dragon Disciple gets important boots to strength and con.

It may be worth your while to play a wizard 5/DD 10/fighter 1/EK 4. This will require you to play a race that has a 1st level spell like ability, but will get you the most melee and spell casting ability you can get as far as I can see, unless you play a magus. By playing magus you only gain 6th level spells. With this you still have 8th level despite you losing 4 spellcasting levels worth of progression.

If you are interested in being an archer instead you could play a wizard/arcane archer/eldrtich knight.

[Deadmanwalking]

Sorcerer and wizard can manage it somewhat focusing on buffing themselves and the shapeshifting spells (specifically, the Dragon Form line, IMO)...but it's never as good as a Druid (who is also a 9 level caster, after all) doing the same thing.

[N. Jolly]

Is Mythic on the table? If so, this idea is crazy viable thanks to one of the mythic supplements. Feast your internet eyes on the glory that is Shapeshifting Mastery, which gives you full BAB with natural weapons given by form changes. I've been wanting to make a character based around this forever.

[Obsidian]

I would like to explore no mythic but that is interesting. Well alright, I guess that makes sense about being too car behind on Bab and what not. Still I think a scarred witchdoctor can do better than most.

[Deadmanwalking]

Obsidian wrote:

I would like to explore no mythic but that is interesting. Well alright, I guess that makes sense about being too car behind on Bab and what not. Still I think a scarred witchdoctor can do better than most.

With the Transformation Patron, quite possibly yes, though they lack as many Buff spells as a more standard Wizard/Sorcerer.

[Claxon]

Just did some quick math, and if I'm right the wizard/DD/F/EK I suggested should have a BAB of +17 and be capable of casting 8th level spells at 20th character level.

If you went wizard 9/fighter 1/ EK 10 you would have BAB +15 and end up with 9th level spells, and get you final spells slots sooner. But you'll be missing strength and con....

[Obsidian]

Well I talked with my DM and he told me he liked the idea so he said I could write something up and present it to him... It does not need to be pf-legal, though no 3rd party.
Please help me fill in the blanks.

20 point buy
Ragebred
Scarred Witchdoctor 12
Str 16, Dex 14, con 16(18), Int 11, Wis 9, Cha 8
Inherent bonuses +2 strength, +1 con

Traits:
1. Adopted (tusked trait)
2.
3.
4. Drawback: paranoid

Feats:
1. Extra feature
3. Aspect of the beast
5. Arcane strike
7.
9
11.

Attacks: gore +10 (1d6+4), bite +10 (1d4+4), claw x2 +10 (1d4+4), hoof x2 +10 (1d4+4)

Hexes
4. scar
6.
8.
10. Retribution
12.

Strength patron

[strayshift]

Catfolk can bring +d8 damage claws to the table, some useful combat abilities (very late in the game if at all if you are an arcane caster) and have a charisma bonus. Dragon Disciple has been mentioned but Aberrant bloodline would allow reach attacks for touch spells, that would be my preference over getting messy in toe to toe combat.

I do recall also one of Ravingdork's characters was an Enhancement Transmuter Scroll Scholar who looked half decent as a 2nd line fighter.

[Obsidian]

True. I am kinda itching to give the build I listed a try but i need some help filling him out.

[Weren Wu Jen]

Is your GM allowing you to take Scarred Witch Doctor even though your character isn't an Orc?

[insaneogeddon]

Obsidian wrote:

Is a full arcane caster, (witch,sorcerer,wizard) viable as a front line fighter type using natural attacks? I was thinking of a ragebred skinwalker maybe with the scarred witch doctor archetype. Anyways I would love your ideas. If I went sorcerer, I would think going 2 levels of ranger for natural combat could be nice then dragon disciple... But really in would like to explore single class options.

No need for natural attacks (and cannot get as half-orc witch) - bite yes but without monsterous physique/undead shape etc pretty hard.

But with witch buffs and the str patron if you have time to tank will beat everyone.

Strength: 2nd—divine favor, 4th—bull's strength, 6th—greater magic weapon, 8th—divine power, 10th—righteous might, 12th—bull's strength (mass), 14th—giant form I, 16th—giant form II, 18th—shapechange.

[Obsidian]

Weren Wu Jen wrote:

Is your GM allowing you to take Scarred Witch Doctor even though your character isn't an Orc?

Yes he is. Our rational is that he was born of a wereboar and an half orc.

[XMorsX]

An Aasimar dark tapestry oracle that uses its alternative favored class bonus on the Many Forms revelation for early access to transmutation spells is going to be a melee natural weapon beast that is also a full divine caster.

Be a Half-Elf, with paragorn surge you are an arcane caster too.

[Weren Wu Jen]

Obsidian wrote:

Weren Wu Jen wrote:

Is your GM allowing you to take Scarred Witch Doctor even though your character isn't an Orc?

Yes he is. Our rational is that he was born of a wereboar and an half orc.

Shiny. :)

A suggestion for order of attacks: Technically your gore and bite are separate attacks, but a boar "gores" with his tusks. As such, I'd say that you always have to make the gore attack right before the bite attack, and only against the same target.

Claws and hooves could got whenever and against whoever.

Just remember, hooves are secondary attacks (-5 to attack and 1/2 Str to damage). You'll probably want to pick up Multiattack at some point.

Cheers!

[Obsidian]

I know that hoof attacks are secondary as per the chart but I also remember reading somewhere that an attack was considered primary unless specified. The entry for ragebred does not include any text saying that the hoof attacks are secondary. My GM is being very lienent with me since this is such a bizzar concept but he will still enforce the rules so if it is a Hardset rule that the hoof attacks are secondary I may opt to not utilize them because at my pathetic BAB. I did decide that I am going to nab Fate's Favored as a second trait to boost Divine Favor/Divine Power.

[Weren Wu Jen]

Actually, the rule is that a secondary natural attack is only considered primary if it's their only attack.

[Obsidian]

Weren Wu Jen wrote:

Actually, the rule is that a secondary natural attack is only considered primary if it's their only attack.

Right on! Thanks for that. I think I am going to mull this all over and present something over the weekend for more review.

[KahnyaGnorc]

If your DM allows for Psionics, a Psion with the Tansmogrifist(sp) variant of an Egoist would net you the full "caster" with natural attacks meleer feel you may be looking for. You can also sacrifice a couple of manifesting levels and take the Metamorph PRC, which will turn you into a full-fledged shpaeshifter at max level (level 10 Metamorph)

[Pupsocket]

Note that, beyond the usual limitied value of level 20 theorycrafting, a natural attacker cares less about base attack bonus than a weapon user; only total attack bonus matters.

[soupturtle]

I don't see this working too well as a witch. Your attack bonus will just be plain terrible, which means you cannot use power attack, so your damage per hit will be really low. I'd personally make a ranger/wizard/eldritch knight using the alter self and monstrous physique spells to polymorph into humanoid forms with lots of natural attacks.

If you really want to make it work, you need to do some serious strength optimization to offset your poor base attack bonus. So I'd start by trying to get a racial strength bonus instead of a racial con bonus, and dropping some con to get the charisma required for the eldritch heritage feats (13 is enough, you can wear a headband to make it 15), so you can get yourself the orc bloodline strength bonus. Added benefit is that if you take one trait (optimistic gambler) the first level power of the orc bloodline (touch of rage) also becomes very useful. You can even take the quicken spell like ability feat to use touch of rage as a swift action 3 times per day, so in the end you'd get half your level minus one to attack and damage as a swift action 3 times a day for 1d4+1 rounds. And the bloodline is very thematically fitting for a scarred witch doctor.

The divine favor spell will also be key, since that helps your attack bonus and damage. You could optimize for it a bit by taking the trait fate's favored, or by taking the magical lineage trait and applying it to divine favor, as well as by getting the quicken spell feat. If you do all three then in the end you get +4/+4 to your attacks for one minute with a swift action 4th level spell.

edit: You're also in danger of having a defensive problem. Your hitpoints will be solid thanks to your con score, but not that great due to your small hit die. And while you get mage armor, you don't get shield or mirror image. Especially that last one is a blow, as that's what my Eldritch Knight relies on for protection. You could consider the arcane armor training and arcane armor mastery feats, but your AC will still be very subpar.

[Torbyne]

A wizard with a SPA and decent charisma can go Dragon Disciple and pick up eldridtch heritage: orc for more mid to late game strength but I think if melee is your focus you should look at building off bard or magus.