In hard times people want someone to blame. It's easy to point that blame at the different and the weak. Demagogues use this to gain power.
And of course to deflect blame away from those actually at fault.
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at the essentially bovine nature of the masses - our mass media has led to so many lies being accepted as truth. At least long enough for those who control the mass media to set their agendas in motion. No single demagogue is necessary for this purpose, but rather the general voice of the media, creating a visceral reaction in the populace, which leads to an environment where their views can be considered reasonable. The people then follow where they are led. Individuals may question but the group gets led around.
And the war continues
Problem is,the version they giving is a little different from what i have.
a spokesman for Kiev's anti-terrorist operation, wrote on his Facebook account that the military had given an ultimatum to the armed men who had occupied the airport to lay down their arms.
the DPR military had given an ultimatum to the armed men who had occupied the airport to lay down their arms.
And,after 12 hours,received no answer,rebels attacked.Besieged loyalists had no choice but to call on air support-the only support available.
Problem is,of course,MANPADS,so minus two choppers.This is actually very sad,because Ukraine's Hinds are equipped with pretty modern active anti-missile system.And i don't mean just flares!
Looks like it can't defeat even old MANPADS reliably.
Wait a second, you are trying to cast Summon Anklebiter, aren't you!
And of course to deflect blame away from those actually at fault.
Sorry, I was watching John Wayne movies.
[Ahem]
Down with the oligarchs!
Down with Sexy Putin!
Down with U.S. imperialism!
Workers: to power!
Believe me, if I were a better demagogue, you'd all be in for it.
Wait a second, you are trying to cast Summon Anklebiter, aren't you!
And of course to deflect blame away from those actually at fault.Sorry, I was watching John Wayne movies.
[Ahem]
Down with the oligarchs!
Down with Sexy Putin!
Down with U.S. imperialism!
Workers: to power!Believe me, if I were a better demagogue, you'd all be in for it.
That's some good proselytizing right there, Anklebiter. Just make sure they film you from low angles and you'll be a leader of men in no time.
That's some good proselytizing right there, Anklebiter. Just make sure they film you from low angles and you'll be a leader of men in no time.
Poroshenko, who is yet to be sworn in, has vowed to negotiate a peaceful end to an insurgency in the east, where rebels have seized government offices and fought Ukrainian troops for more than a month.
[Poroshenko has described the separatists as "Somali pirates," saying that arms should be used against "killers and terrorists," but he also indicated that he wants a quick end to the military operation in the east.
Peaceful end,apparently,is when all opponents are resting in peace.
Another ultimatum.Either rebels surrender or their positions will be attacked with precision munitions
Fan fact:Ukraine HAS NO PRECISION MUNITIONS.
Even modern russian guided bombs has CEP of 10+m.And Russia spends mad dollarz on it's military.
What Ukraine have is old soviet guided bombs,with CEP of 30+m,not accounting for the lack of maintenance.
I,personally,expect heavy collateral damage.
I found this article to be very disappointing. While certainly one-sided (from a rather leftist website) the thought that Sweden - the last country I would associate with U.S./NATO style imperialism - has such close ties with those very forces seems sort of insane.
Is there some sort of traditional enmity between Russia and Sweden that would make them adversaries, and push Sweden closer to NATO?
Is there some sort of traditional enmity between Russia and Sweden that would make them adversaries, and push Sweden closer to NATO?
Not that i am aware of.
Poland,i understand.Sweden...errr...last war two was centuries ago?
With Russia,OK.But two centuries?
Poland?!
Last thing Europe needs is the return of the Hussars!
^ sarcasm.
Poland?!
I mean,USSR is indirectly responsible for destruction of Warsaw during WW2,along with most of polish resistance and substantial amount of civilians.
It was not that long ago,so Poles are understandably mad about it.Sweden was neutral for....a LONG time.
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I do concede that what Israel possesses are not SSBN's - my apologies to everyone (Gallo in particular) for the factual error.
And, just for your information, Israel does have SSBN's. You must have missed the memo on that one! Just another sign of your ignorance.You might want to read the article you quoted there, big guy. It says the exact opposite of what you claim. Gallo isn't the one speaking from ignorance.
[/QUOTES]
Could you elaborate? The article clearly states that Israel does indeed have submarines, and that experts agree they are used as nuclear weapons platforms. Sure, they are diesel, not nuclear' but still....
The Dolphin is a diesel-electric boat, an SS or an SSK if you are feeling fancy. It can certainly launch cruise missiles- SLCMs.
It is not, however, a boomer like a US or Russian Federation SSBN. it is not nuclear powered and cannot launch ICBMs (well, SLBMs). They are different things.
SLBM are the ones that can hit anywhere on Earth from pretty much any launch point and can carry multiple warheads with megaton yields. SLCM vary widely, but I've never heard a quoted range greater than 1500 miles and 300 and less is more likely. Smaller warhead, too.
That being said, I don't want to be shot at with either one.
Your gracious apology is graciously accepted. I think a couple of us, myself included, have gone a bit far with some of our comments :)
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Is there some sort of traditional enmity between Russia and Sweden that would make them adversaries, and push Sweden closer to NATO?
Not really. The Swedish government is the US' b$@#%, more than most other countries, however. I could write pages upon pages about the corruption in the Swedish government and how they take orders from the US in an extremely disgusting way.
Also, Sweden is NATO's proudest members even though it's not formally a part of NATO. Since Sweden wants to claim to be "neutral" the government haven't signed any NATO papers, but we do whatever NATO tells us to and send people to NATO's imperialistic wars.
We also have an area large as Belgium that the Swedish population aren't allowed to be in at all, because it's a military training/test area dedicated to NATO and US troops, more or less.
Our schoolsystem is the most privatized in the world barring one - Chile, and we all know who was behind that.
The Swedish government is also close friends with the global weapons industry; per capita we are one of the largest weapon exporters in the world. So of course the Swedish government has an interest in keeping the conflicts coming.
I checked my sources-there appears to be no known torpedo-launched ballistic missiles,so in no way Dolphin is SSBN(even if we use russian term РПКСН(missile submersible cruiseк,strategic designation),which doesn't have to be nuclear-powered)
Still a good sub.For non-nuclear.
per capita we are one of the largest weapon exporters in the world.
This is not necessarily a bad thing.Depends on what weapons are exported,and where.
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The Swedish government is the US' b!**@, more than most other countries, however. I could write pages upon pages about the corruption in the Swedish government and how they take orders from the US in an extremely disgusting way.
Trust me, living in Canada, I can empathize. Every word out of (Prime Minister) Harper's mouth is in service to the same corporatist, right wing, hateful forces which run the U.S. and pretty much the rest of the western world. He wants Canada to be a "player" internationally but he's sold out our reputation as a fair and progressive place to do it. I really hate it.
Volunteers
Weapons provided by Allah himself.
Especially MRO-A(modern rocket launcher with thermobaric warhead,designed specifically for urban combat.AFAIK THIS weapon actually is used only by RF).
More fallout from the Ukraine situation - U.S. Congress casts wary eye at Russia over arms control commitments.
More fallout from the Ukraine situation - U.S. Congress casts wary eye at Russia over arms control commitments.
If anyone can explain me how russian relations with third party can affect
disarmament treaty between Russia and USA,he will get sent a pizza roll.Or something.
Also,as some people here may know,there are cyber-rebels.These guys are pretty awesome,for example they hacked and shut down electronic election system.On election's eve!
Here's a little gem from them
Lots of swearing in russian
this is texting between what passes for minister of internal affairs(M_ and what passes for former commander of Donbass batallion(C):
Rough translation:
M:What happened?The Man is furious.
C:Nothing(censured)much,just an ambush!
M:So what?
C:(censored)head vehicle got one rpg,right through the engine.5 men turned
to bbq.Those who were on armor-shot by snipers.and it's not the most (censured)-up thing.
M:I already got it.
C:Men saw one who,with broken spine,tried to get away from the box.
You understand what happened next.
M:They ran,yes?
C:Yep.Ten or something.I had no choice.None at all.
M.All bodies are accounted for?
C:Yes.Buried them near that place.
If that was a red letter media reference
lol
If that was a red letter media reference, bravo.
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Is there some sort of traditional enmity between Russia and Sweden that would make them adversaries, and push Sweden closer to NATO?
Lots of wars, but none recently. Sweden did lean towards the West during the Cold War, though, as they expected to be invaded with everyone else if the Russians came over the wire.
Oddly, there's a bit of discussion on that from the Swedish point of view in the "The Girl Who..." series. The books mention Olaf Palme, the same one from the article, who (IIRC) was a very senior politician who was assassinated for being too Socialist.
Ramzan Kadyrov:
"No Chechen military forces are involved in ukrainian civil war.
According to RF's Constitution CR can't even HAVE the military forces.
If someone sees chechen in the conflict zone-it's his personal business.
There are three million chechens,most of them live outside CR,we can't and don't need to know where they are any more than government in Kiev knew about Ukrainians who went to war to Grozny).
And if Ukraine's government want to see chechen units SO MUCH,why go to Donetsk,when there is very good road to Kiev?"
This man is a troll of epic levels.
with the entrails of the last priest!
Again you are doing it wrong.
What's your problem with priests?)
Woops, missed this before.
It's a line from Voltaire (IIRC). I thought'd it'd be a funny slogan next to one derived from The Bible.
---
Nope, it's from Diderot.
Woops, missed this before.It's a line from Voltaire (IIRC). I thought'd it'd be a funny slogan next to one derived from The Bible.
---
Nope, it's from Diderot.
You do not need to tell ME that)
And it was funny)
Warning - very graphic picture embedded in story: Heads Up - The US is losing in Ukraine.
Interesting quote: Although the government labeled the offensive as an "anti-terrorist" operation, the reality is that it was either a case of Ukraine killing its own people, or it was a military assault against a sovereign population, depending on one’s interpretation of the Donetsk People’s Republic referendum of May 11 in which the people overwhelmingly voted for independence from Ukraine.
You do not need to tell ME that)
And it was funny)
Well, then, Ecrasez l'infame! (with various Frenchie punctuation marks)
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Warning - very graphic picture embedded in story: Heads Up - The US is losing in Ukraine.
Interesting quote: Although the government labeled the offensive as an "anti-terrorist" operation, the reality is that it was either a case of Ukraine killing its own people, or it was a military assault against a sovereign population, depending on one’s interpretation of the Donetsk People’s Republic referendum of May 11 in which the people overwhelmingly voted for independence from Ukraine.
I anticipate tons of posters posting about how "legitimate" governments don't need to shoot and gas their people.
[Holds breath]
Warning - very graphic picture embedded in story: Heads Up - The US is losing in Ukraine.
Interesting quote: Although the government labeled the offensive as an "anti-terrorist" operation, the reality is that it was either a case of Ukraine killing its own people, or it was a military assault against a sovereign population, depending on one’s interpretation of the Donetsk People’s Republic referendum of May 11 in which the people overwhelmingly voted for independence from Ukraine.
I anticipate tons of posters posting about how "legitimate" governments don't need to shoot and gas their people.
[Holds breath]
Are there no cases where a group took up arms against a legitimate government? Are all armed rebellions inherently justified? Should governments, in order to be legitimate, renounce the use of force and allow any group that wished to use force take whatever territory it wished from the government?
I'd say legitimate governments will very rarely have the need to do so, but that doesn't say anything about any specific case.
One could argue that reserving the right to inflict violence upon their citizens is the sole remaining power of a failing nation-state, jeff. And legitimacy seems to be a big issue for both sides.
And the use of violence should, if exercised, be proportional to the threat posed. This sort of brutal attack will only strengthen resolve and a desire to be away from Ukraine. And further actions of this sort may very well trigger a non-diplomatic response from Russia.
may very well trigger a non-diplomatic response from Russia.
They already did.You know,hundreds of russian volunteers with weapons sent by Allah himself.
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I think the option to negotiate should have been Ukraine's first action, but that's me. I'm no pacifist but there's no way this ends well for Ukraine. Those two provinces, and Crimea - they're gone. All Ukraines' use of armed force will do is force them closer to Russia.
Poroshenko's masters have demanded violence, and violence they shall get.
All Ukraines' use of armed force will do is force them closer to Russia.
Well,they CAN technically level Slavyansk as an example.
All that is required is....errr...all of Ukraine's artillery and half of ammunition.And central government can't lose those two provinces.Donestk province is most profitable,industrialized province they have.Lugansk is not too shabby either.Together they can easily represent twenty-five percent GDP loss.
EDIT: Nevermind; on second read it didn't say what I originally thought it said.
[Drinks more coffee]
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All Ukraines' use of armed force will do is force them closer to Russia.Well,they CAN technically level Slavyansk as an example.
All that is required is....errr...all of Ukraine's artillery and half of ammunition.
And central government can't lose those two provinces.Donestk province is most profitable,industrialized province they have.Lugansk is not too shabby either.Together they can easily represent twenty-five percent GDP loss.
Well, despite some parties criticizing the referendums, it seems pretty clear those two provinces, indispensible as they may be to Ukraine, aren't happy with the status quo. Had Poroshekno said "Hey, guys, let's sit down and talk, and work out a way where we can co-exist in a looser federation where your rights are respected!" (Yes, I know, naive!) then I bet they would have done that. In a flash.
Instead, he calls them "bandit states", "murderers" and "terrorists". And so the fight is on. Poroshenko had the chance to "spend" his political capital (coming off a fairly convincing win, assuming one backs the legitimacy of his election in the first place) to make peace and talk. Instead, he's decided to toe the imperialist, capitalist line and attack, attack, attack.
Instead, he's decided to toe the imperialist, capitalist line and attack, attack, attack.
Well,he's pretty convinced that Ukraine CAN supress the rebels.IF it can,good for them,but they didn't take a single city in near two months!
I'm not so convinced,because for every donetsk rebel there is a russian volunteer that is more than willing to fight fascism for honor and glory.And for every shelling of Slavyansk new rebels appear.
then that is a clear form of terrorism
Nope.That's what they call a civil war.Terrorism is when US Marines'ATGMs
somehow end up half a world away in hands of Syria's "rebels"And it's not something Ukraine didn't do in the past,for example,Alex Muzichko,now deceased leader(one of) of Right Sector was wanted for war crimes in Chechen War,committed while on the side of rebels.
To say nothing about SAMs during .08 war...
if they're not Ukrainian how can it be a civil war? Its just a normal war
They are russians,duh.Protecting russian people.And yes,there are russians on other side too.
Classic civil war,straight from the last century.
Aww, did you edit wikipedia?
So big!
Aww, did you edit wikipedia?
So big!
You can do that?
Finally,news i can use!Besides,foreign volunteers,acting without knowledge or consent from their government is a pretty big thing.
From what i remember,for example,Sevastopol was founded by such volunteer.
And i have been reading A LOT about these guys's feats during wars with Ottoman Empire.
See,some guys here are asking completely wrong questions.
Right question,in this case,would be:How is it different from
First Chechen War?
if they're not Ukrainian how can it be a civil war? Its just a normal warThey are russians,duh.Protecting russian people.And yes,there are russians on other side too.
Classic civil war,straight from the last century.
Crap. Civil wars aren't based on ethnicity, but on nations. A fight between Ukrainians and Ukrainians for control over Ukraine or to split it apart is a civil war. A fight between Ukrainians and Russians is not, even if they're supposedly supporting ethnic russians in Ukraine.
A few volunteers doesn't change things, but as the outsiders take over it does.
Are we sure that civil wars can't be based on ethnic/tribal divisions? Honestly, a lot of nations are relatively arbitrary constructs that were imposed by more powerful outsiders. Ethnic and tribal lines were ignored as imperial powers drew borders that were convenient to them, desires of the inhabitants be damned.
You can be sure that simmering ethnic divides are at play in Ukraine. Certain interested parties have done everything they can to manipulate those tensions and feed fuel to the conflict.
imperial powers drew borders that were convenient to them, desires of the inhabitants be damned
Like Ukraine,for example.Between east and west there are different people(by ethnos),different religion,and different way of life.
It's at least two nations.It MAY work as a federation,but not as unitary nation.Yugoslavia was shattered by what,four?Five?
20+ years since the fall of the Soviet Union pushes it beyond the bounds for me.
For you,but not for the rebels:P
You know why?Because substantial number of them fought,for example,in Afghanistan.
In eighties.
During the time when both Russia and Ukraine were provinces.
So rebels have absolutely no problems accepting Russian volunteers.
Once again,fighting for the same country.
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There have been Swedish volunteers fighting in both the Somalia and Syrian civil wars. That doesn't mean it's now a Swedish-Somalian war.
Not saying it's the same thing, but I don't think it's black and white. There's a lot of gray in it.
There have been Swedish volunteers fighting in both the Somalia and Syrian civil wars. That doesn't mean it's now a Swedish-Somalian war.
Not saying it's the same thing, but I don't think it's black and white. There's a lot of gray in it.
As long as those russian volunteers are not in control of civil government,it's OK in my book.
Actually,i would be deeply ashamed had there been none of them.