The Ukraine thingy


Off-Topic Discussions

1,301 to 1,350 of 2,002 << first < prev | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | next > last >>

Gaberlunzie wrote:

There have been Swedish volunteers fighting in both the Somalia and Syrian civil wars. That doesn't mean it's now a Swedish-Somalian war.

Not saying it's the same thing, but I don't think it's black and white. There's a lot of gray in it.

Oh much gray. And a few volunteers don't change anything. Vlad's been lauding Russian volunteers as replacing the Ukrainian rebels. To the extent that happens, especially if the Russian volunteers are taking over leadership, then we're moving away from civil war and into something else.


I don't disagree wholesale with you, jeff; there are certainly foreign forces at work in this conflict. For over twenty years efforts have been under way to bring Ukraine into the wests' fold - NATO, the EU, etc. On the other side, traditionalist forces looking to retain ties to their ethnic motherland, Russia.

I know Russian volunteers have been brought up a lot, but let's not forget the presence of American CIA "security advisors" on the side of the Ukrainian junta, as well as reports of foreign mercs being used as muscle. And the continued use of fascist storm troops should give anyone pause.

As for India and Pakistan - textbook example of western powers dividing groups arbitrarily, and for their own strategic purposes.


thejeff wrote:
Vlad's been lauding Russian volunteers as replacing the Ukrainian rebels..

That's a lie.

Augmenting,yes.
JohnLocke wrote:
On the other side, traditionalist forces looking to retain ties to their ethnic motherland, Russia.

It's actually other way around,Kiev Russia is ethnic motherland.And no-one here forgets that.


JohnLocke wrote:
As for India and Pakistan - textbook example of western powers dividing groups arbitrarily, and for their own strategic purposes.

Didn't say it wasn't. Same with Iran & Iraq and the rest of the former Ottoman Empire.

Are they still civil wars between them?
Hell all of Europe was formerly part of the Roman Empire. That makes thousands of years of conflict just more civil wars.


So,after checking all available sources i can say that during battle for Donetsk airport rebels lost around 100 people,about a third of them russians,and most of them during destruction of two medevacs.
Government do not disclose losses,but considering RPGs with thermobaric warheads,likely high.Also,all in all,from the beginning of May government lost about a quarter of battle-ready helicopter fleet.
Today's reports of missile strikes against Slavyansk are just that,reports.Unlike shelling,which is apparently becoming the norm.
There are reports of destroying rebels's top artillery piece,2C9 class that fired at least three hundred 6-inch shells during the last two weeks.(and it's AWESOME!)
If confirmed,it's sad,because without artillery support things can turn grim in Slavyansk pretty fast.


thejeff wrote:
JohnLocke wrote:
As for India and Pakistan - textbook example of western powers dividing groups arbitrarily, and for their own strategic purposes.

Didn't say it wasn't. Same with Iran & Iraq and the rest of the former Ottoman Empire.

Are they still civil wars between them?
Hell all of Europe was formerly part of the Roman Empire. That makes thousands of years of conflict just more civil wars.

Reductio ad absurdum isn't necessary, nor does it counter my point that imposed, arbitrary divisions of ethnic/tribal groups into nation states by imperialist powers can result in conflict and bloodshed later. What lengths one will go to in order to define as a civil war is irrelevant in the face of that fact.

I don't think anyone denies that there are Russian volunteers fighting on the side of the two breakaway republics. Nor have I seen anyone try and refute decades of western meddling in Ukrainian affairs.


Vlad Koroboff wrote:

So,after checking all available sources i can say that during battle for Donetsk airport rebels lost around 100 people,about a third of them russians,and most of them during destruction of two medevacs.

Government do not disclose losses,but considering RPGs with thermobaric warheads,likely high.Also,all in all,from the beginning of May government lost about a quarter of battle-ready helicopter fleet.
Today's reports of missile strikes against Slavyansk are just that,reports.Unlike shelling,which is apparently becoming the norm.
There are reports of destroying rebels's top artillery piece,2C9 class that fired at least three hundred 6-inch shells during the last two weeks.(and it's AWESOME!)
If confirmed,it's sad,because without artillery support things can turn grim in Slavyansk pretty fast.

Ukrainian forces struck medevac vehicles? Holy crap. Is there independent verification of that?


So,according to Kremlin-sponsored military,a few hundreds of Ukrainians,who fought in Syria,returned and now fighting against the rebels
Hizb-ut-tahrir has absolutely no relation to that fact.
None at all.

JohnLocke wrote:


Ukrainian forces struck medevac vehicles? Holy crap. Is there independent verification of that?

By my understanding of photos rebels were pretty stupid and trucks weren't carrying medevac symbols.

Being not from army myself,does that make them acceptable targets?
Update:according to one of the rebels'leader there WERE medevac symbols.
But,can you really see them from a mile away through the crosshairs of Hind's targeting system?
Whatever.Who transports wounded in non-armored trucks anyway?
I think the rebels....errr...moroned(in russian MTG community we have version of "moron"as verb).


If the vehicles were marked as medical evacuation personnel then someone has just committed a war crime. If they weren't marked, as you say, then there is a degree of ambiguity. A soldier driving a wounded comrade to hospital could be a legitimate target. Exclusively medical personnel or third party aid organizations that are marked are not.

Still, nasty work.

Vlad Koroboff wrote:

Update:according to one of the rebels'leader there WERE medevac symbols.

But,can you really see them from a mile away through the crosshairs of Hind's targeting system?

If you're firing on a target, you'd better make damn sure it's a legitimate one. Too much risk of blue on blue and civilian casualties otherwise.


JohnLocke wrote:


Still, nasty work.

Yep,heaviest casualties of war.

Talking about blue on blue,a few days ago ukrainian checkpoint was destroyed by helicopter strike.
Pilots were told that this checkpoint changed hands during the night.
30 something WIA,undiclosed KIA.


Was watching Simon Ostrovsky and that other dude wander around Donetsk and shuddering when I ran across this delightful video.

Sweden's War On Fascists


News are getting stranger and stranger.
A few weeks ago i mentioned two good technothriller writers,who wrote something on present situation.
I received word than one of them,Fyodor Berezin,is now among rebels.
This is...strange.
Exeptionally because he writes one book a year,tops,and if he gets killed,he can't write anymore!That sucks!
Oh well.At least he's air defence officer,i hope he operates something other than a rifle.


Is it too far afield to post this in here?

'Cuz I'm thinkin' all the Sexy-Putin-as-beefcake comparisons are gettin' to Team Obama.


So,according to RF's investigation committee,medevac truck WAS marked as such.
I do not understand why Russia investigates this,and not the Ukraine,but oh well.
Around here for the last three months Ukraine is better known
as Territory 404.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

Is it too far afield to post this in here?

'Cuz I'm thinkin' all the Sexy-Putin-as-beefcake comparisons are gettin' to Team Obama.

I think it's fair game.

John Kerry: "The fact is if he cares so much about America and he believes in America, he should trust in the American system of justice."

Translation: "You're screwed if you ever come back, traitor. We're going to torture the living heck out of you."


Vlad Koroboff wrote:

So,according to RF's investigation committee,medevac truck WAS marked as such.

I do not understand why Russia investigates this,and not the Ukraine,but oh well.
Around here for the last three months Ukraine is better known
as Territory 404.

I think I have an idea why Russia would say the trucks were marked, Vlad :-) I'm pretty sure you do too, if you think about it.


JohnLocke wrote:


I think I have an idea why Russia would say the trucks were marked, Vlad :-) I'm pretty sure you do too, if you think about it.

Casus belli?

As in,Odessa weren't enough?


Or at least, pretty much anything to make Ukraine look worse. Much like Ukraine has motivation to say the opposite.


Vlad Koroboff wrote:
JohnLocke wrote:


I think I have an idea why Russia would say the trucks were marked, Vlad :-) I'm pretty sure you do too, if you think about it.

Casus belli?

As in,Odessa weren't enough?

Perhaps not so far as war, but to bolster the cause for intervention... Following on the heels of the murders in Odessa this should - if news agencies actually carry it - give Ukraine's junta even more of a black eye.


JohnLocke wrote:
Vlad Koroboff wrote:
JohnLocke wrote:


I think I have an idea why Russia would say the trucks were marked, Vlad :-) I'm pretty sure you do too, if you think about it.

Casus belli?

As in,Odessa weren't enough?
Perhaps not so far as war, but to bolster the cause for intervention... Following on the heels of the murders in Odessa this should - if news agencies actually carry it - give Ukraine's junta even more of a black eye.

A week ago rebel commander in Slavyansk complained about that government moves in more APCs daily then he gets volunteers.

Now he complains about shortage of rifles.
That's all i can say)
Exept that i will be really furious if that guy gets Berezin killed.
I can understand and can respect willingness to put his MANPADS where his mouth is,but DAMN!Where do i get another writer?


Vlad Koroboff wrote:
JohnLocke wrote:
Vlad Koroboff wrote:
JohnLocke wrote:


I think I have an idea why Russia would say the trucks were marked, Vlad :-) I'm pretty sure you do too, if you think about it.

Casus belli?

As in,Odessa weren't enough?
Perhaps not so far as war, but to bolster the cause for intervention... Following on the heels of the murders in Odessa this should - if news agencies actually carry it - give Ukraine's junta even more of a black eye.

A week ago rebel commander in Slavyansk complained about that government moves in more APCs daily then he gets volunteers.

Now he complains about shortage of rifles.
That's all i can say)
Exept that i will be really furious if that guy gets Berezin killed.
I can understand and can respect willingness to put his MANPADS where his mouth is,but DAMN!Where do i get another writer?

To be fair, Russia has never had a hard time producing great writers, Vlad :-) But I hope he is safe, too, though I am unfamiliar with his work.


Does this qualifies as airstrike against civilian target?
Driver of that white car sure is lucky.
For the record:target was Lugansk's town hall.

Sovereign Court

Not that I believe anything I see on this channel but I did find This plausible.


Guy Humual wrote:
Not that I believe anything I see on this channel but I did find This plausible.

Me too.While .08 war was a clear military victory,information war was lost.Looks like that powers that be learned their lesson.

And it's far less costly to wage information warfare compared to even single missile.


How Covert Agents Infiltrate the Internet to Manipulate, Deceive, and Destroy Reputations by Glenn Greenwald


So,Mr.Berezin,according to himself,now is not just a rifleman,but assistant defence minister of DPR.
In other news,Ukraine lost two Su-25 yesterday.
Obviously it's just a coincidence.


I consider this article a must read for anyone looking to better understand how western (primarily American) meddling got Ukraine into its current mess.


JohnLocke wrote:

I consider this article a must read for anyone looking to better understand how western (primarily American) meddling got Ukraine into its current mess.

Actually it was the stupidity of ukrainian leaders at the time.

Believe it or not,there was a long-term contract which allowed Ukraine to buy gas for 42$/100m,valid till 2014.
So of course they negotiated a new one in 2007.Old was not good enough,you see?
That tiny mistake costed Ukraine substantial percentage of it's GDP.


So,in the last week tens of casualties daily became norm.
Mariupol was supressed.Again.
And then THIS happened.
I'm pretty sure this is the first time since eighties.

The Exchange

How are the disputed territories of eastern Ukraine going?

The Exchange

Vlad Koroboff wrote:

So,in the last week tens of casualties daily became norm.

Mariupol was supressed.Again.
And then THIS happened.
I'm pretty sure this is the first time since eighties.

I noticed how the 'Russian terrorists' were getting slaughtered before they started shooting down incomming troop transports filled with soldiers sent to kill them. It was innevitable they counter the air delivery issue. Troops will now need to come in by road where the ambush war can be fought.


Seems to have died down. Looks like Russia won.

The Exchange

Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

Is it too far afield to post this in here?

'Cuz I'm thinkin' all the Sexy-Putin-as-beefcake comparisons are gettin' to Team Obama.

So Kerry says Edwards should 'trust in American judicial system'? The same judicial system that executed bin laden without a trial and has called for the assassination of Edwards...no. Not until the next president hangs the current administration for treason.

The Exchange

MagusJanus wrote:
Seems to have died down. Looks like Russia won.

Damn. Blinked and I missed it.


yellowdingo wrote:
How are the disputed territories of eastern Ukraine going?

Trying to exist.As of now,rebels still have pretty sucky weapons(and little to none tanks),but substantial manpower.Civilian casualties are very high,which,in turn,increases mobilization potential.

Central government,on one hand,lost substantial amount of it's air force,but on the other,switched to war economy,mobilized and equipped A LOT of fighters.
Right now,things are in the balance.But fighting did not died down.On the contrary,last two weeks were bloodiest since the start of the whole thing.1

Oh,and Slavyansk still somehow didn't fall.
And since Berezin was appointed as someone in charge effectiveness of rebels'air defence was drastically increased.And he's still alive!


Had my mind blown when the latest issue of my old comrades' newspaper arrived with an article claiming Russia wasn't imperialist by the Leninist definition (which is slightly different than the one used by everybody else in the world).

Went to see if it was online yet, but it isn't. But the group who split from my old comrades back in the mid-90s, and mostly have all the same positions, is:

For Proletarian Opposition to U.S./E.U./NATO Imperialists’ Cold War Drive!

The Bugbear of “Russian Imperialism”


The Saker's take on recent developments in the Ukraine.

The Saker. .


Storyteller Shadow wrote:

The Saker's take on recent developments in the Ukraine.

The Saker. .

I have to add that whole autorization to use military force is a red herring.

Seriously,there is law of 2009 that allows the president to use military in any case in which russian citizens and/or russians are involved.


Couldn't help but notice that there hasn't been a thread about Obama going back into Iraq. Also couldn't help but notice that there doesn't seem to be the same outrage over the World Cup that there was over Sochi. I mean, I know they discriminated against homosexuals in Russia and all, but they're shooting people (admittedly, brown people) in the streets in Brazil.

Blatant hypocrisy. It's great.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
but they're shooting people

And how this is worse than outlawing homosexual propaganda?


It is looking like Russian Separatists have murdered an entire plane full of innocent civilians.


pres man wrote:
It is looking like Russian Separatists have murdered an entire plane full of innocent civilians.

Collateral damage. They thought it was a military transport.

Which is why you don't give sophisticated AA systems to just anyone.


Probably best to give this one some time for independent verification. It certainly seems plausible that it was a rebel launched missile (*glances casually upthread at Vlad bragging about how much more aggressive rebel AA has been lately*) but on the other hand, the source at the moment is the US intelligence community, which, I am sure, is institutionally completely unbiased and honest in every way.

Anyway, man, it is not a good year for Malaysia Airlines.


Coriat wrote:

Probably best to give this one some time for independent verification. It certainly seems plausible that it was a rebel launched missile (*glances casually upthread at Vlad bragging about how much more aggressive rebel AA has been lately*) but on the other hand, the source at the moment is the US intelligence community, which, I am sure, is institutionally completely unbiased and honest in every way.

Anyway, man, it is not a good year for Malaysia Airlines.

In their area and they're the ones with the tech to shoot it down, but no access to flight plans and air traffic control.

It's a far bigger screw up if it was anyone else. Or possibly a false flag operation intended to look like it was the separatists. But that's a stretch. Far too many ways for that to backfire.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I like how an airliner being shot down "may" be a tragedy.


They've since discovered that there was an American citizen aboard and it's since been upgraded to an "outrage of unspeakable proportions."


So many people who were instrumental in the battle against AIDs died on that plane. It is a disgustingly shameful act to shoot down a plane full of civilians with no connection whatsoever to the conflict.

I just hope things don't escalate to horrible proportions.


Indeed.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Uh maybe I'm just showing utter naivity here but is it possible that it hasent been shot down and instead crashed for some unrelated reaspn?

Liberty's Edge

Kevin Mack wrote:
Uh maybe I'm just showing utter naivity here but is it possible that it hasent been shot down and instead crashed for some unrelated reaspn?

It's not utterly impossible... But cruising altitude is the safest part of a flight and it was a relatively new plane.

There are reports that the US observed the heat signature of a missile launch in the area. That is believable, there are satellites designed for that kind of thing.

Also, there is the post on the rebel's vkontakte (think Facebook) page about how they had just shot down a government transport plane.

Hard to avoid the conclusion that it was shot down.

1,301 to 1,350 of 2,002 << first < prev | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Gamer Life / Off-Topic Discussions / The Ukraine thingy All Messageboards