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Question: If the mount and rider have different Reach, who can attack on a mounted charge and where does the movement end?
I've noticed a frustrating amount of table variation on the topic of mounted charges. This shouldn't be happening; a human with a lance on a horse charging someone is not a weird corner case scenario, it's a very basic concept that should be clear from the basic rules.
As I understand it, when a knight charges, the horse does the actual charging, moving to the closest space from which the horse can attack. Given that the horse has a reach of 5', and the lance has a reach of 10', this would preclude the knight from actually attacking. Which is obviously not the intent. So the mounted combat rules has the lance attack being a "kinda-sorta readied attack gaining the benefits of a charge", not an actual charge.
The opposite case, where the mount has greater reach, is pretty rare; you can always get 10' with a weapon, and a mount would need to be Gargantuan or have special reach; if it has special reach, like a long-necked dragon, I would probably allow it to make a "claw charge", putting within 10' instead of 15', at the cost of making an inferior attack. Thoughts?
Relevant to the topic at hand:
Lance: If I have the pounce ability and I charge with a lance, do my iterative lance attacks get the lance's extra damage multiplier from charging?
No, for two reasons.One, because a lance only deals extra damage when you’re riding a charging mount—not when you are charging.
Two, even if you have an unusual combination of rules that allows you to ignore the above limitation, it doesn’t makes sense that those iterative attacks gain the damage bonus....
—Sean K Reynolds, 03/01/12
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The rider shares his mount's space and must attack at the end of his mounted charge. This means the charge must end 10 feet from the target.
A typical horse has a reach of 5 feet. It can therefore not attack an enemy 10 feet away.
Various feats and abilities can modify this scenario.
What seems to be unclear?
What seems to be unclear?
Intent, and the distinction between a charge and a mounted charge. The mounted combat rules clearly state that the mount is doing the actual charging, which would put the mounted knight at 5' from the enemy.
By the rules as written, a human mounted on a horse can never make a lance charge against a human on foot and gain the damage multiplier. The horse charges, and ends adjacent to the target. This is "at the end of the charge", where the rider would attack with his lance for double damage - except he can't attack with his reach weapon, because he's adjacent to the target.
This is the RAW, and it's obviously not the RAI.
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I made a thread on this, but I did not phrase the original FAQ question quite as well as you did. The thread managed to collect ~30 FAQ requests, and had no developer input.
I have FAQ'd your post as well.
It is especially bad if you play PFS. So far as a PFS GM I have just gone with whatever interpretation the player has based his character around, as the rules are such a mess.
It would be nice if the developers wrote a blog, or explained how a mounted charge was meant to work, especially since there is even a whole class - the Cavalier - devoted to mounted combat.
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By the rules as written, a human mounted on a horse can never make a lance charge against a human on foot and gain the damage multiplier. The horse charges, and ends adjacent to the target. This is "at the end of the charge", where the rider would attack with his lance for double damage - except he can't attack with his reach weapon, because he's adjacent to the target.
This is the RAW, and it's obviously not the RAI.
The only way I could figure out to make the RAW work is if you make the horse charge an imaginary opponent, or a blade of grass, or other such nonsense in a square adjacent to the 'human on foot'. Then the horse stops and attacks the blade of grass, and the rider can hit the human on foot with his lance. However, this requires a lot of lateral thinking, and might also be stretching the RAW.
With my PFS mounted summoner, I took the Ride By Attack feat so as to prevent even GMs that follow the RAW by the letter to not allow me to do a mounted charge with my lance.
It's a very useful feats for other reasons too (the exemption from Aoos is very interesting against creatures with high reach, and it is a requirement for wheeling charge)
Actually the solution is pretty clear.
Let the mount charge the target and attack. And let the rider ready a lance attack against the target of the charge.
You are not breaking any rules now and the rider will gain the charging bonus from being on horseback and attack the target, just before the horse will complete the charge on the target.
I in fact think that is what happens during a mounted charge against a target. No rule breaking no problems still provoking AoO during the charge.
The only thing you need to be aware of is the distance between the start of the charge and the opponent.
When starting at 5 foot from an opponent you cannot charge an opponent and gain charge bonusses like double damage and +1 to hit.
When starting at 10 foot from an opponent the mount will charge, but the rider will not as he only charged 5 foot before attempting to hitg his opponent and therefor not gaining charge benefits.
When starting at 15 foot or more, both the rider and mount will gain full bonusses from the charge.
If next round the rider wants to attack the character adjacent to his horse he is unable to use the lance (which in reality seems logical), but may opt to drop the lance, draw his non reach weapon and attack(if he has quick draw) or make a shield-bash, still holding the lance.
Ride by attack even makes this more effective as the mounted combatant will even be out of reach of the adversary he just charged, by the end of his own round.
This does not change anything for the defenders as they may still opt to brace vs. charging opponents.
The next round, the mount could make her attack and five step back, allowing the rider to full-attack with his lance by the way if need be ;)
I disagree with your interpretation of the charge bonuses.
If you are on a charging mount, by RAW ,you will gain full bonus from the charge, wherever you make the attack. That includes a +2 to hit from the charge, double or triple damage with the lance (spirited charge);a +1 to hit from being on high ground (if the opponent is medium or smaller) but also the -2 penalty to AC.
The charge only has to be legal for the mount. Essentially this means you could make an attack when the mount only moved 5 feet and still benefit from the charging bonuses. That is by pure RAW, but I will agree with you if you argue against it being RAI.
For RBA, it is a bit more complicated, and I would say you still need to move 10ft before attacking to get the charge bonuses, since the mount doesn't have to be actually charging at your target.
To Faskill: You might be right about the fact that charge need only be verified for the Charging mount (although I was unable to verify it)
To Laif: I do not understand the question or your problem. Could you clarify what you mean???
the mount and rider share tge same squares. as per the rules the rider should be able to attack fine when the mount is adjacent to the target. in reality the rider isnt actually at the front or back of the horse he is in the middle. so theres no reason to treat the rider as always in the front square.
I recall reading somewhere that you could treat the rider as being able to attack from any square his mount is in, and could be attacked by threatening any square the mount is in. I believe this resolves this particular problem.
I suppose if the qualifyer "at the end of the charge" is interpreted liberally, the problem goes away.
I don't see a problem in cases where the mount has reach, and the rider doesn't. Creatures with natural reach can end their charge adjacent to their target.
No they cannot. Charge clearly states:
You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.So that's at 10 foot from an opponent and not adjacent!!
So unless the rider of the mount then has a reach weapon as well, the rider will be unable to attack.
Core Rulebook pg 202 "If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty
associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of
the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge.
When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with
a lance (see Charge)." Don't know if that helps, but to follow up with what Claxon said, "for simplicity, we assume you share your mounts space during combat" pg 202 core rulebook.
There are several places throughout the core rulebook that elude to a large creature being able to initiate an attack from any square it that touches its space "If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking." and "Unlike when someone uses a reach weapon, a creature with greater than normal natural reach (more than 5 feet) still threatens squares adjacent to it. A creature with greater than normal natural reach usually gets an attack of opportunity against you if you approach it, because you must enter and move within the range of its reach before you can attack it. This attack of opportunity is not provoked if you take a 5-foot step. Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but can’t strike at their natural reach or less." pg 195 core rulebook.
Snowleopard does offer a solution, you use the ride skill to tell your mount to charge an enemy, while holding your lance attack to hit as soon as you are 10ft from the enemy then the horse gets adjacent to the enemy and hits with its hoof charge attack. I wouldn't give you the +2 if you attack with your lance while the horse is in the process of charging, but I would multiply the damage from your lance, and a +1 to AT for higher ground, if applies, as the core rulebook says "when charging" pg 202, rather than "after your mount has charged". If you attack with your sword at the end of the horse's charge, then I would give you a +2 to hit (the horse hits first most likely), as the movement part of the charge is complete.
Or, we could not let the horse attack on a charge while it is carrying a rider that is using a 10ft reach weapon, "Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move." pg 201 core, saying, "sorry, Mr. Horse, but you have simply become my new movement rate or speed, and you must use your turn to move me around, though I can, as a free action, use the ride skill to direct you to attack if there is someone you can hit with your 5ft reach."
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Actually the solution is pretty clear.
Let the mount charge the target and attack. And let the rider ready a lance attack against the target of the charge.
Sorry, but this solution is far from clear. It requires a novel interpretation of the rules and also ignores the 'at the end of the charge' part of the rules.
However, the rules are so badly written that this interpretation is as good as you get.
The Mounted Combat rules need a complete re-write so that they make sense, and are also easy to understand. This may also need to include changes to the charging rules.
The general consensus seems to be that the charge ends adjacent to the target, assuming that the mount is a horse, and that of course the lance attack does double damage.
As St. Augustine points out, by strict RAW, the rider doesn't get +2 to hit, because his attack doesn't come "at the end of the charge", and thus doesn't actually count as a charge attack (the trigger for double lance damage is different). I think it's safe to assume that a reading of the rules that make a lance charge not count as a charge, and that makes several Cavalier class abilities not actually work with a lance, can be assumed to be, well, the wrong interpretation.
I think we're just about ready to agree.
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The general consensus seems to be that the charge ends adjacent to the target, assuming that the mount is a horse, and that of course the lance attack does double damage.
As St. Augustine points out, by strict RAW, the rider doesn't get +2 to hit, because his attack doesn't come "at the end of the charge", and thus doesn't actually count as a charge attack (the trigger for double lance damage is different). I think it's safe to assume that a reading of the rules that make a lance charge not count as a charge, and that makes several Cavalier class abilities not actually work with a lance, can be assumed to be, well, the wrong interpretation.
I think we're just about ready to agree.
I for one agree.
Every solution I have seen that attempts to explain how the mounted lance charge works has some flaw - you won't get an answer that follows strict RAW.
I think this solution is the best of the options available.
It think it is also the solution that interacts best with Ride-By Attack.
It should also be noted that this is the only solution that allows the mount to actually have it's charge attack.
FAQ'd, the mounted charge rules are a mess and contradictory.