Goblin Squad Member
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Hey, so my friend wanted to know how a game where you buy XP to level up your character is not a PTP system. His argument is that someone who pays will always be ahead of the person who works for the in game gold to purchase the in-game equivalent. I tried to explain to him, but I did rather poorly so I was wondering if anyone had a better way of stating the concepts.
I know that for all intents and purposes the EE will be a pay to play system with free to play elements, but we were talking concerning AFTER that (17+ month) period, when OE would hit.
I am stating this in its own thread because I know it is brought up a lot and will be a major issues for new players. Basically how do you overcome the question, and how do you dissuade the idea that it is like EVE at a first glance, both for me specifically, but mostly for the community as a whole.
As I stated in another thread, let us face it. Right now it does seem like it will be a pay to play system, or even pay to win for some, and I would hope that by the time it hits OE we will, as a community, have adequate response to this problem.
To my understanding this is the system:
Pay to get into to EE. Queue up and enter EE. Throughout EE either pay for the xp-packs or go through without leveling up as much. This is as much to dissuade an overload of players as it is to gain money. After OE the xp system will be revised to make it free-to-play where the people with the monthly prescription getting various bonus' such as cosmetics and the usual items that are more for utility or looks and don't give an edge (or much of an edge) in-game.
Basically I guess I am just looking for the dev blog/thread link here, and hoping this will serve to answer new players' questions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Devs have stated repeatedly that the power-curve for new players and veteran players will not be that great.
The XP you gain either through subscription or market will not necessarily be usable right off the bat. You might have a month's worth of XP, but only the merits, access to training, and other things that will allow you to use a portion of your monthly XP sometimes. I imagine that will only become more common as you get higher skills.
His argument is that someone who pays will always be ahead of the person who works for the in game gold to purchase the in-game equivalent
You can tell him that a mysterious, handsome stranger says that this is wrong. The whole point is that you advance at the same rate no matter how you get the XP. I guess you could argue that the Goblin Ball user will be a bit behind because he has to spend his gold on the Balls.
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Goblin Squad Member
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His argument is that someone who pays will always be ahead of the person who works for the in game gold to purchase the in-game equivalentYou can tell him that a mysterious, handsome stranger says that this is wrong. The whole point is that you advance at the same rate no matter how you get the XP. I guess you could argue that the Goblin Ball user will be a bit behind because he has to spend his gold on the Balls.
You should tell your friend that the handsome and mysterious stranger is also the center of the universe. So he should believe unconditionally or that stranger might decide your friend doesn't exist in his universe anymore. :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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You should tell your friend that the handsome and mysterious stranger is also the center of the universe. So he should believe unconditionally or that stranger might decide your friend doesn't exist in his universe anymore. :PHis argument is that someone who pays will always be ahead of the person who works for the in game gold to purchase the in-game equivalentYou can tell him that a mysterious, handsome stranger says that this is wrong. The whole point is that you advance at the same rate no matter how you get the XP. I guess you could argue that the Goblin Ball user will be a bit behind because he has to spend his gold on the Balls.
he would totally decide the universe doesn't exist ;)
And I went through the dev blogs and figured it out myself so this is more just to let other people know, not specifically myself and my friend.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Devs have stated repeatedly that the power-curve for new players and veteran players will not be that great.
The XP you gain either through subscription or market will not necessarily be usable right off the bat. You might have a month's worth of XP, but only the merits, access to training, and other things that will allow you to use a portion of your monthly XP sometimes. I imagine that will only become more common as you get higher skills.
Is it true that you may not be able to expend all the xp to a single character? I asked a question about this in the Ask Lee Hammock Videoblog Sticky so hopefully we will learn more about that.
About the powercurve: I think it will be a lot flatter mostly because of the max-monthly xp method. So it will take a lot of time to get high up there in power. This is a good thing. I also remember the devs saying that a lot of the power comes from being able to do *more* things, so your versatility rises enormously over the years. So that is consistent with what you are saying. New players, when focussing on a few (complementary) skills will quickly become useful.
However I also remember quotes where they said that a level 20 veteran with 3 years under his belt will easily fend off a group of midlevel players; and possibly a whole horde of true newbies. So there will be powerdifferences.
Maybe people can make viable characters that are good at 1 or 2 things with only 6 months of XP under their belt. Still not Free to Play but pretty cheap. As per the skillpacks for ingame coin: see the other discussion where I state that true newbies will have a hard time accruing enough money to buy them. Could be wrong though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
To my understanding this is the system:
Pay to get into to EE. Queue up and enter EE. Throughout EE either pay for the xp-packs or go through without leveling up as much. This is as much to dissuade an overload of players as it is to gain money. After OE the xp system will be revised to make it free-to-play where the people with the monthly prescription getting various bonus' such as cosmetics and the usual items that are more for utility or looks and don't give an edge (or much of an edge) in-game.
This is not really accurate.
During Early Enrollment, you must subscribe (or be getting it free because you backed at an Alpha level).
After Early Enrollment (during Open Enrollment), you'll be able to buy Goblin Balls from the Cash Shop in a variety of sizes, quite possibly anything from an hour to a year. You'll be able to trade those Goblin Balls in-game, so you can sell them on the Market if you want.
There will be some form of Free-to-Try option, but it won't really be Free-to-Play (unless you count being able to buy Goblin Balls with in-game Coin).
If you're gaining XP, you'll be gaining it at the same rate as everyone else that's gaining XP. Nothing will change that.
You can choose how to distribute the XP you gain among your different Characters. If you have two subscriptions and you also bought a one-month Goblin Ball, you could train three Characters for the entire Month, or you could mix it up however you want, except that a single Character can only ever be gaining XP from one of those sources at a time.
The Power Curve is a lot flatter in PFO than in most other games, but it's not "flat". Old Vets in Tier 3 Gear will be serious business; they just won't be "invincible" to New Characters.
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yesterday i was asking questions about GoblinBalls as i was wondering if its something that will make the game pay to win.
i received alot of replies from you and i am sure that there is no pay to win element on that.
about f2p issue.every company needs money to run a game.
i found games in the past that a player could manage to play the whole game without giving any money but i am the type of player that when i like a game i want to give some money to the company so they continue run it.
i agree that they should give something like a week free not tradeable Goblinball to every account when the game is fully released.
just like a free trial.so people they can try it out and see if they want to continue.
in a game with no huge advertise and no top graphics that people can see a screenshot or a video and pay for it you have to have a way for people to log, play for few days for free to see the actual game.
anyway the game is for mature people that want a game with deph,good mechanics and a good healty community.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
...you'll be able to buy Goblin Balls from the Cash Shop in a variety of sizes, quite possibly anything from an hour to a year...
"By Nethys, look at the size of those!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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To my understanding this is the system:
Pay to get into to EE. Queue up and enter EE. Throughout EE either pay for the xp-packs or go through without leveling up as much. This is as much to dissuade an overload of players as it is to gain money. After OE the xp system will be revised to make it free-to-play where the people with the monthly prescription getting various bonus' such as cosmetics and the usual items that are more for utility or looks and don't give an edge (or much of an edge) in-game.
This is not really accurate.
During Early Enrollment, you must subscribe (or be getting it free because you backed at an Alpha level).
After Early Enrollment (during Open Enrollment), you'll be able to buy Goblin Balls from the Cash Shop in a variety of sizes, quite possibly anything from an hour to a year. You'll be able to trade those Goblin Balls in-game, so you can sell them on the Market if you want.
There will be some form of Free-to-Try option, but it won't really be Free-to-Play (unless you count being able to buy Goblin Balls with in-game Coin).
If you're gaining XP, you'll be gaining it at the same rate as everyone else that's gaining XP. Nothing will change that.
You can choose how to distribute the XP you gain among your different Characters. If you have two subscriptions and you also bought a one-month Goblin Ball, you could train three Characters for the entire Month, or you could mix it up however you want, except that a single Character can only ever be gaining XP from one of those sources at a time.
The Power Curve is a lot flatter in PFO than in most other games, but it's not "flat". Old Vets in Tier 3 Gear will be serious business; they just won't be "invincible" to New Characters.
right you are, just finished the relevant blog myself.
I'm more concerned with the OE and post OE. The game DOES need some sort of F2P system as Tolath said, if not then a lot of people won't even bother. I am a fan of the runescape system where there is a certain decent sized, but overall small, zone for f2p characters, and then a much richer, more in depth, many times larger zone for p2p. That method works rather well in my experience.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To my understanding this is the system:
Pay to get into to EE. Queue up and enter EE. Throughout EE either pay for the xp-packs or go through without leveling up as much. This is as much to dissuade an overload of players as it is to gain money. After OE the xp system will be revised to make it free-to-play where the people with the monthly prescription getting various bonus' such as cosmetics and the usual items that are more for utility or looks and don't give an edge (or much of an edge) in-game.
This is not really accurate.
During Early Enrollment, you must subscribe (or be getting it free because you backed at an Alpha level).
After Early Enrollment (during Open Enrollment), you'll be able to buy Goblin Balls from the Cash Shop in a variety of sizes, quite possibly anything from an hour to a year. You'll be able to trade those Goblin Balls in-game, so you can sell them on the Market if you want.
There will be some form of Free-to-Try option, but it won't really be Free-to-Play (unless you count being able to buy Goblin Balls with in-game Coin).
If you're gaining XP, you'll be gaining it at the same rate as everyone else that's gaining XP. Nothing will change that.
You can choose how to distribute the XP you gain among your different Characters. If you have two subscriptions and you also bought a one-month Goblin Ball, you could train three Characters for the entire Month, or you could mix it up however you want, except that a single Character can only ever be gaining XP from one of those sources at a time.
The Power Curve is a lot flatter in PFO than in most other games, but it's not "flat". Old Vets in Tier 3 Gear will be serious business; they just won't be "invincible" to New Characters.
right you are, just finished the relevant blog myself.
I'm more concerned with the OE and post OE. The game DOES need some sort of F2P system as Tolath said, if...
I think that we should wait and see what they NEED for a player base and can comfortably support (as in numbers). AND whether they want to gamble with the concerns that could be a problem with a bunch of non paying toons with nothing to lose by wrecking the atmosphere and community.
Personally, I think that a 30 day free trial (with a client purchase) is plenty good. Allow "GB's" purchasable at lots of different time packages and sellable in game for gold. The fact that FTP characters will be "behind" subscribers (or MTX experience buyers) is really just how it works. Yes they will have less gold and yes they will have to work much harder, but they are playing for free.
Make a good hook with interesting early play and bait it with fantastic higher level play.
If GW goes that route, anyway.
yesterday i was asking questions about GoblinBalls as i was wondering if its something that will make the game pay to win.
i received alot of replies from you and i am sure that there is no pay to win element on that.about f2p issue.every company needs money to run a game.
i found games in the past that a player could manage to play the whole game without giving any money but i am the type of player that when i like a game i want to give some money to the company so they continue run it.i agree that they should give something like a week free not tradeable Goblinball to every account when the game is fully released.
just like a free trial.so people they can try it out and see if they want to continue.
in a game with no huge advertise and no top graphics that people can see a screenshot or a video and pay for it you have to have a way for people to log, play for few days for free to see the actual game.
anyway the game is for mature people that want a game with deph,good mechanics and a good healty community.
That seems like a good idea, Tolath.
Goblin Balls are good for a week, right?
Incidentally, I find "Goblin Balls" entertaining solely because it's such a ridiculous name. XD
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Goblin Squad Member
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Goblin Balls are good for a week, right?
I'm not sure if you're serious, or if you're making a blue joke...
You'll be able to buy them in various increments. Ryan has explicitly mentioned them being as short as an hour, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them last a year or more. I had initially made the assumption they would be "one month", but Ryan quickly disabused me of the notion.
You'll be able to buy them in various increments.
Ah, harkening back to the gold/silver/bronze balls suggestion.
I'm not sure if you're serious, or if you're making a blue joke...
Nah, I made a "balls of steel" joke already, I should be good for a week or so.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that we should wait and see what they NEED for a player base and can comfortably support (as in numbers). AND whether they want to gamble with the concerns that could be a problem with a bunch of non paying toons with nothing to lose by wrecking the atmosphere and community.
Personally, I think that a 30 day free trial (with a client purchase) is plenty good. Allow "GB's" purchasable at lots of different time packages and sellable in game for gold. The fact that FTP characters will be "behind" subscribers (or MTX experience buyers) is really just how it works. Yes they will have less gold and yes they will have to work much harder, but they are playing for free.
Make a good hook with interesting early play and bait it with fantastic higher level play.
If GW goes that route, anyway.
This sounds like a realistic approach. If there is indeed a clientpurchase they could add 1 month of gametime to it, so people get to expend some xp the first month.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Of course someone that is actually paying to play the game is going to get more experience than someone that is just enjoying the FtP version of the game. What is wrong here? Game developers do their jobs to earn money. They entice people with FtP versions of it, but ultimately, they are trying to get those people to contribute to the game through purchases. Those purchases mean that everyone gets to play the game to to the level they are willing to participate. If you are not willing to contribute to the well being of the game, then your experience shouldn't be as good someone that is contributing.
WTF did this society decide that everything has to be handed to them? "We don't want to pay to play a game, but we want all the same advantages as the people that are willing to pay the play the game."
Well that model, doesn't work. Developers don't get paid. They don't keep programers on to make more content. They don't keep servers running. The system fails unless there are consumers out there actually buying the product.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not saying the full game should be open to f2p, but the act of not having any form of game is, for reasons stated, bad. Because the fact is, yes, people expect their MMOs to be f2p, and if it isn't a lot of times they will just move on before looking into it. My problem with the "30-day free trial" is that if you staple that on the front, it has connotations that people will read too far into and will thus avoid, and if we don't state it then it will be misrepresenting.
I don't want this to turn into a debate on why people want f2p and why the devs deserve their money. I am trying to come up with a viable f2p system that at the same time restricts from the full experience.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Something like: if you don't pay then you cannot level up all types of skills. you can still use them in basic capacity (variety being a cornerstone of this game's platform) but you cannot further them. Exclusions would be PvP classes, and then certain other specific skills (like some forms of simple harvesting)
Ideas like this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will be some form of free play, that's a requirement in today's market where people want to try an MMO before they put in any money.
How long you can play without paying anything is something we're thinking about. We don't want a game full of folks who trained for 6 months, got reasonably competent, and are now playing without producing any revenue.
Ryan's been pretty consistent for quite some time that they recognize the need for a Free-to-Play option of some sort, but that they also need folks to be paying to support the game.
Or maybe that could be saved for sales: Buy an item from a shop, get 1d6 Goblin Balls free!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Which is why my option stands. If you open them up to the basics of the main features they can survive well enough. But eventually they should start craving the ability to live. In a game like this, where there is so much potential for expansion beyond the basics, this system could really work I feel.
Its alright if it doesn't end up this way, but hopefully the devs give it some serious thought, yeah?
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i think tha a free trial on release that you can play a game on his full version for few days its enough.
let say we can add some more inventory space bag in the shop as well its fine.but adding skill unlocks or items or anything that makes the game a way easier its not good.
but you need to have something that makes people pay so the game will continue.
adding adventure packs and pve contect can work for some people but later on people will be focus in pvp and pve contect will not interest everybody.
but that is something you can add and you can get money ofcourse people with active subscription have access to all that dungeons.
people that have no active subscription they have to pay to own the dungeon.
a similar system tha ddo runs i remember Ryan mention that long ago thats why i said it.
about the xp package or goblinballs not sure how to name it.
if you want to name the game as free to play the no using goblinball chars have to generate xp in a rate of 1/10 to 1/2 of what chars using the goblinball can generate.
if something like that is not added its better to name the game as free to try.
even if you get option 1 people will want to buy a subscription or a goblinball from the store to get as much xp as posible but any of that methods is better to be added at launch of the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let's say that I wouldn't use FTP alts for "monsters in the basement", multi boxing kill squads, my "naughty Bandit" side, or anything like that. What could I use an unlimited amount of FTP alts for?
I can think of a few, right off the bat, that would make many things in the game useless or at least redundant.
Don't you guys hate it when you see posts have been deleted but can't remember if they were yours or not?
I seem to run into that feeling a lot. ;D