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I'm throwing around the idea of making a character that focuses on Dirty Tricks, but can't quite decide if Lore Warden or Maneuver Master monk would be a better fit.
Lore Warden:
+Massive boosts to CMB/CMD
+Fighter feats/weapon training
+Lore ability for more plus to hit
-Can't make use of Dirty Trick Master effectively.
-I'm a fighter with all the related issues.
Maneuver Master:
+Able to use Dirty Trick Master in one round to shut an enemy down, either with Flurry or being able to do 2 maneuvers as a standard action.
+Quicken SLA for Quickened True Strike 3/day
+Ki ability to roll twice, take better result
+Add wisdom to one maneuver a turn with a swift action
-The three previous buffs can't be applied together.
-Less massive static bonuses to CMB
-I'm a monk with all the related issues.
Lore Warden would seem to be better straight up if it wasn't for Dirty Trick Master; two maneuvers to make the enemy dazed or nauseated? Hell yes! Problem being that I need to waste a turn applying dazzled (terrible) or sickened (meh, much worse than blind) before I can do the good stuff.
Any thoughts or suggestions?
1 or 2 lvls of maneuver master, then continue with lore warden.
I don't know why that didn't occur to me when I posted this, because it is the obvious answer. I think the build could be workable and seems like it would certainly go the distance due to the versatility of status effects available when Grapple and Trip builds fail.
So build idea... Lore Warden 1/MM 2/Lore Warden 2-11. Level 13 chosen because I'm in a game at that level now.
1. Power Attack
F1. Combat Expertise
M2. Improved Dirty Trick
3. Weapon Focus - Scimitar
M3. Combat Reflexes
F4. Step Up
5. Following Step
F6. Weapon Specialization - Scimitar
7. Greater Dirty Trick
F8. Quick Dirty Trick
9. Step up and Strike
F10. Critical Focus
11. Improved Critical - Scimitar
F12. Dirty Trick Master
13. Destroy Identity
EDIT: Fitting with concept, the Scimitar would be made of Viridium.
EDIT2: Be human, take Racial Heritage Gnome, and eventually get enough Monk levels for a Ki Pool. Then Bewildering Koan all up in dis too.
Speaking from my experience playing a MM Dirty Trick specialist:
Maneuver Master can stack on Dirty Tricks and other maneuvers quite well. The +Wis swift is what you'll usually use, since it costs no Ki (assuming your Wisdom is up to snuff). If your DM allows you to Dirty Trick with your weapon, that's a point for the Fighter. Otherwise, point for the Monk.
Dirty Trick Master didn't exist when I played my monk, but two things: The monk gets it very late since it has BAB +11 prereq, and it's a trap feat. You're better off going with Blind from one trick than Daze/Nausea in two tricks. Of those three conditions they're going to just wipe it with a standard action anyway, since they're nearly equally crippling. As a maneuver master monk you can apply Blind and Entangle (or whatever your second favorite is) and then they're still entangled when they clear off the Blind.
Dirty Trick Master didn't exist when I played my monk, but two things: The monk gets it very late since it has BAB +11 prereq, and it's a trap feat. You're better off going with Blind from one trick than Daze/Nausea in two tricks. Of those three conditions they're going to just wipe it with a standard action anyway , since they're nearly equally crippling. As a maneuver master monk you can apply Blind and Entangle (or whatever your second favorite is) and then they're still entangled when they clear off the Blind.
You can't make a standard action if Nauseated or Dazed.
Use a Tetori Monk, and make Ric Flair.
For some reason I thought it was like Staggered, maybe due to 4e Daze. In that case it's definitely a nice feat, though it'll be pretty late in your career.
For some reason I thought it was like Staggered, maybe due to 4e Daze. In that case it's definitely a nice feat, though it'll be pretty late in your career.
That's why I love being around such a level. All those plans and build schemes come to fruition :D
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You might consider going Dervish Dance to help keep your AC up. Make sure to get the Dueling property from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide on your scimitar.
Also, this would make a mean 'bodyguard' style character. He jumps into the fray and proceeds to dirty trick anyone who approaches. He could quite easily Daze, or Nauseate an entire party with repeated applications.
Definitely a character parties will remember and hate.
You don't need to worry too much about your AC when your opponents are blind (if you're willing to gamble on succeeding at your task). You could go for dance, I enjoyed picking up Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp, since leading with the blind makes the other combat maneuvers that much easier.
Why not a polearm?
Why not a polearm?
A couple reasons I had were:
1. Reach is nice, but I dislike not being able to attack directly in front of me. It may not be a problem all the time, but its a threat that's there enough to make me wary. Along the same lines I've come to dislike using two-handed weapons as opposed to just using a one handed weapon in two hands; never know when I'm going to end up grappled.
I could consider finding room for Lunge, but right now the build doesn't have a lot of wiggle room unless I drop the Step Up chain, but I think it's a great boon with a 30% chance to stagger with no save on an Attack of Opportunity (plus the mostly negligible but still cool Viridium crit effect).
2. Crit range; I love the feat Destroy Identity so I want my non-dirty trick attacks to provoke it as often as possible. If I want an 18-20 base crit range with a polearm weapon I need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency for Fauchard.
Why not Lore Warden with a Monk dip for Maneuver Master at level 7?
Polearm should be able to Dirty Trick from reach, and you can flurry it with a Trip.
I didn't really take a lot of time considering the level order or efficiency at all levels; for my current situation it would be a moot point because he'd be starting at 13 if I get to play him at all. I'm sure the choice order could be tweaked to make it more playable as a natural growth character though.
You don't need to worry too much about your AC when your opponents are blind (if you're willing to gamble on succeeding at your task). You could go for dance, I enjoyed picking up Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp, since leading with the blind makes the other combat maneuvers that much easier.
But if the enemy is blind, he can use a standard action to reverse the dirty trick. If you choose Daze of Nauseated, then the player can't take a Standard action to reverse them.
Either way he ain't swinging back (or he's doing it blind).
Either way he ain't swinging back (or he's doing it blind).
True, but being blind only lasts one round or so. You bling him, and he spends a standard action to remove the blindness. He then can make attack of opportunities, or move.
If he is Dazed, he just stands there and does absolutely nothing at all (not even AoO). If he is nauseated he can only take a single move action and nothing else.
With Greater Dirty Trick, the condition lasts 1d4 rounds +1 for every 5 points you beat the opponents CMD. So on average, you'll Daze/Nauseate a creature for 2 rounds (more if they have a crappy CMD).
In fact, if he dips Maneuver Master long enough to get a quickened True Strike SLA, he can make use a Dirty Trick to inflict Dazzled/Sickened, then Swift action cast True Strike, and make the second Dirty Trick at a +20 bonus (almost guaranteed to be 1d4+4 round duration).
That's an average of 6 rounds where the BBEG does absolutely nothing but stand there or take a single move action.
It's actually quite a powerful build if you really focus on it.
In fact, if he dips Maneuver Master long enough to get a quickened True Strike SLA, he can make use a Dirty Trick to inflict Dazzled/Sickened, then Swift action cast True Strike, and make the second Dirty Trick at a +20 bonus (almost guaranteed to be 1d4+4 round duration).
Huh, true enough. You would need 5 levels of Monk to make that happen, but damn if it isn't nice.
...it would also get a Ki Pool for Bewildering Koan. No, I can't let that go. I need to see that in an actual build of mine someday.
So...
Human Lore Warden 8/MM 5 (1st level Lore Warden to qualify for PA at 1, then 5 MM, rest LW).
1. Racial Heritage Gnome
1. Power Attack
1F. Combat Expertise
2M. Improved Dirty Trick
3. Step Up
3M. Combat Reflexes
5. Bewildering Koan
7. Following Step
7F. -dead space, can't qualify for s%#* here- Skill Focus: Bluff?
9. Quick Dirty Trick
9F. Greater Dirty Trick
11. Quicken SLA
11F. Critical Focus
13. Destroy Identity
13F. Dirty Trick Master
I think I like it.
I had never heard of Bewildering Koan before, but the amount of awesome contained in that feat is mind boggling!
I see this guy as the ultimate a&!$&*&.
Him: "Hey what would you do if she then do are?"
Enemy: "Wah-"
Him: (Spits in enemies mouth)
Enemy: (sickened) Oh my god why would you do-
Him: (Knees surprised enemy right in the balls for Nauseated and then cuts him so badly his self-esteem goes down)
And then the enemy catches the Leprosy too.
Also, I see you addressed the need for EWP: Fauchard as a hiccup, but really, I can't see using any other weapon. Get Keen on that badboy and you're set for life. Especially considering you have the open feat at 7th level and aren't going trip-based, you have plenty of space for it.
If I did go for a reach weapon it would also nullify any usefulness of the Step Up tree, so it would clear two more feats right there... as I mentioned earlier though I have my doubts about both designated two-handers and reach weapons. I've never personally been screwed over by their limitations in any important way, so I don't know why I have such an aversion.
Note that maneuver master is a Monk, so you'd have a close range attack at hand. Or feet.
Also, your stunning fist will be eeeeeh, so you may as well make that a four winds maneuver master.
You make a valid point about always being armed, but iirc there was a fiasco around here not too long back about metaphorical hands that ended with devs saying "No your two hander monk can't kick the guy in the face!" I could be mistaken though as the whole thing seemed pretty asinine to me so I just kinda skimmed it.
Four Winds is a great call though. Thanks for that!
Note that maneuver master is a Monk, so you'd have a close range attack at hand. Or feet.
Also, your stunning fist will be eeeeeh, so you may as well make that a four winds maneuver master.
You make a valid point about always being armed, but iirc there was a fiasco around here not too long back about metaphorical hands that ended with devs saying "No your two hander monk can't kick the guy in the face!" I could be mistaken though as the whole thing seemed pretty asinine to me so I just kinda skimmed it.
Four Winds is a great call though. Thanks for that!
You may be thinking of the Two-handed weapon/armor spikes thing. People figured you could use something like a longspear and then wield armor spikes for when they got close.
However, as far as I'm aware, there is nothing stopping a guy from kicking someone even if they are wielding a weapon two-handed.
Hmmm, thought. If I did this guy it would be with level 12 WBL. With that in mind I could get an Ioun to give fauchard proficiency and have three feats... for Skill Focus, Eldritch Heritage, and Improved Familiar.
I'm rather partial of Ratling; can use any scroll, can drop a swarm for you, and can Dim Door you so many times per day, essentially giving you pounce... I'm already worshiping an evil deity in some capacity for Destroy Identity. Problem here is that I'm starting to feel like I'm pushing the minmax too far.
Why not a polearm?A couple reasons I had were:
1. Reach is nice, but I dislike not being able to attack directly in front of me. It may not be a problem all the time, but its a threat that's there enough to make me wary. Along the same lines I've come to dislike using two-handed weapons as opposed to just using a one handed weapon in two hands; never know when I'm going to end up grappled.
Just use one of the 2 monk weapons that allow you to attack close as well as being a reach weapon.
If you are playing that high a level, pick up the weapon that will give you +9 to your CMB.
I think the chance to stun is worth a lot more than a little elemental damage, unless the campaign is going to be full of targets that are immune to stuns. The DC will scale by your full level rather than Monk after all, while five levels in Winds gives you +2d6.
Koan is excellent (as it so happens my current Monk is using it), but it takes a swift action so that interferes with most other monk stuff. Matters less in a primarily fighter build, but your ki pool will also be fairly limited then.
Cad Fighter may be worth looking into as well.
can you perform a dirty trick with a weapon? Since it doesn't have the specific call out that other maneuvers have, isn't it up to the GM to allow it? I call this out, only because you don't want to have this all planned out and have the GM in the end say "no".
If you can awesome, since I'd love my unarmed lorewarden/maneuver master to start adding his weapon training to his dirty trick maneuvers, but I'm not sure that's RAW.
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Some of each.
Combine with a grappler, as blinding someone then grappling them prents them from removing.
I'd personally take 3 Lore Warden and the rest Manuever master; the +2 static CMB and 2 extra feats help. You also don't need to focus; blind, trip, reposition (ki throw) and grapple (binding throw) the opponent; all in the same round. You can do this around level 5.
My experience with Stunning Fist differs. If you invest little into it, it may have poor odds, but the payoff is just that good. Against Arcanists your odds go up notably. And you can use it to Fatigue a Barbarian with some luck, shutting down their Rage until they can take 8 hours to rest.
It's also pretty easy to pump your DC with Mantis Style, perhaps Mantis Style and Ability Focus if you really want to. Even so, I'd take odds for a stun over 2d6 damage any day.
Edit: Should also mention putting Stunning Fist on your AoO against slippery rogue types.
Sub Zero makes a good point about Dirty Tricks with weapons. In general you just use weapons for disarm, sunder, or trip
Well, according to the Duelist weapon property you should be able to. If not, the Pit Fighter PrC gets that ability at lvl 3 I think?
can you link the duelist weapon property, I can't find it.
