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Ratfolk are used to living and fighting communally, and are adept at swarming foes for their own gain and their foes' detriment. Up to two ratfolk can share the same square at the same time. If two ratfolk in the same square attack the same foe, they are considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares.
Sounds like two Ratfolk of any size can "swarm" together.
Can two Rogue Ratfolk, that are swarming, deal Sneak Attack damage to a target within 30 feet? It seems the only two conditions that must be met are to stand in the same square (Swarming) and attack the same target. Nothing about threatening...
The racial feature says, "If two ratfolk in the same square attack the same foe, they are considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares."
Flanking only applies to melee attacks.
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I'm not sure about melee only...
The wording suggests that melee attacks gain a +2 flanking bonus. But what is flanking?
When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
So if I am 20 feet away from an enemy, my ally is opposite enemy, also 20 feet away, we meet the conditions of the imaginary line crossing the opposite borders.
The only condition that "forces" this to be melee is the additional condition of needing to be threatening the opponent (which you can only do with melee weapons, barring any special feats.
Swarming breaks these rules, making the new condition of flanking as "occupying the same square" and "attack the same foe". Specific bests general.
You are missing a few very important lines in your citation:
Flanking
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.
Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.
Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can't flank an opponent.
1) The flankers must be on the opposite borders or corners of the target square(s);
2) The flankers must threaten the opponent, ranged weapons don't threaten.
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The Swarming trait allow the two ratfolks to share a square, but they would still suffer the penalties for squeezing:
Squeezing: In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn't as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.
When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4 squares) squeezes into a space that's 1 square wide, the creature's miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.
A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square.(the italicized part is superseded by the race trait)
To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space's width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can't attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Big penalty to get a flanking bonus.
The Swarming trait allow the two ratfolks to share a square, but they would still suffer the penalties for squeezing...
I thought the whole point of the trait was that they didn't have to squeeze in order to occupy the same space. Otherwise, it's pretty useless even without trying to flank.
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Diego, those are the rules for squeezing, not occupying the same space as another creature.
The rules for that are: you can't (unless one is helpless).
Swarming replaces the "you can't" with "you can".
The two Ratfolk would not be squeezed unless they were in a narrow space, as per, you know, squeezing.
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Diego, those are the rules for squeezing, not occupying the same space as another creature.
The rules for that are: you can't (unless one is helpless).
Swarming replaces the "you can't" with "you can".
The two Ratfolk would not be squeezed unless they were in a narrow space, as per, you know, squeezing.
A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving
So you think that they would be squeezed while moving, but not while attacking?
I don't see anything saying "you don't suffer the penalties for sharing a square with another creature" in that racial trait.A basic principle when you have some rule that change other rules is that, unless differently specified, it change the minimum amount of rules possible.
The rules say that if you are small or larger, while you are in the same square of another mobile creature you suffer the squeezing penalties.
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To me, Swarm trait changes the conditions of flanking. Old conditions to flank don't matter, Swarming overrides them.
A bit absurd, but possible.
And that is why I dislike most of the Advanced Race Guide book. There is a large number of feats/racial traits and other stuff that heavily change how some rule work, but the effect of those change is not well defined. (Look the long thread about "growing" a tail if you take the tail terror feat, regardless of your race)
Probably the RAI is that the 2 ratfolk will get the flanking benefit only when attacking in melee and that they will not be suffering from the squeezing penalties.
But it is possible that the author of the ability has completely forgotten that there is a squeezing penalty, or that he agree with Nefreet and think that it will not apply as the ratfolk aren't moving while attacking or that he remembered it and take for granted that it will be applied.
Hard to say.
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BTW, about the swarming ability:
Swarming (Ex) Morlocks dwell and fight in cramped quarters every day of their lives, and as such are quite adept at swarming foes. Up to two morlocks can share the same square at the same time. If two morlocks in the same square attack the same foe, they are considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares.
Morlocks are medium sized creatures and they can use the swarming ability.
I don't know... The trait comes out and point blank changes the normal flanking rules.
Normal flanking conditions:
1) Melee attack
2) Threatening opponent
3) Opposite side of creatures (presumable in melee reach)Swarm flanking conditions:
1) Two Ratfolk share same square
2) Attack same opponentIf those two conditions are met, it is "as if they were in two opposite squares".
To me, Swarm trait changes the conditions of flanking. Old conditions to flank don't matter, Swarming overrides them.
Normally, if two creatures (say tiny creatures, since they can move into occupied squares) are in the same square, they are not considered to be flanking. The line "as if they were in opposite squares" indicates that condition still exists - i.e., that the two allies must be on opposite sides or corners of the foe's square in order to flank, but that the Ratfolk can actually be in the same square instead.
As to why flanking applies to melee only, not only does it call it out in flanking but it also calls it out in the definition of threaten:
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn.
The Snap Shot feat allows someone wielding a ranged weapon to threaten an enemy, but it still does not allow them to benefit from flanking, since it calls out that it only applies to melee attacks.
As to the squeezing penalty, I agree with Nefreet: Without swarm, you can't end movement in the same square as an ally or foe.
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As to the squeezing penalty, I agree with Nefreet: Without swarm, you can't end movement in the same square as an ally or foe.
There are way to attack while moving, and certainly you can be attacked while moving.
It seem absurd to apply the penalty if you are moving but not applying it if you have completed your move.|
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Diego, those are the rules for squeezing, not occupying the same space as another creature.
The rules for that are: you can't (unless one is helpless).
Swarming replaces the "you can't" with "you can".
The two Ratfolk would not be squeezed unless they were in a narrow space, as per, you know, squeezing.
A creature can squeeze past a creature while movingSo you think that they would be squeezed while moving, but not while attacking?
I don't see anything saying "you don't suffer the penalties for sharing a square with another creature" in that racial trait.A basic principle when you have some rule that change other rules is that, unless differently specified, it change the minimum amount of rules possible.
The rules say that if you are small or larger, while you are in the same square of another mobile creature you suffer the squeezing penalties.
Bolding mine.
I don't see anything saying that you do suffer penalties for sharing a square with another creature, since, you know, you can't.
Unless you have the Swarming trait.
Again, you're looking for rules in the wrong place. Two creatures occupying the same space is not squeezing, in any sense.
You're also misinterpreting the second line.
"A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving."
This is no different than when an ally normally wants to move through your square.
Actually, I think that is talking about a large creature being able to squeeze past a medium creature in a 10' hallway or some such. The large creature has to squeeze for 10' of movement. An ally would not have to squeeze since he can just move through.