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I have a group of PCs with a range of experience playing pen and paper RPGs. Some are very experienced and a few are newcomers. The group doesn't always play optimally. I never quite know when to pull my punches in a fight. I don't want to go too easy on them, but sometimes it is so difficult not to kill them. Well, today the first PC died. Here's how it happened.
The seven PCs (yes, we have a large group) are all level 6 (APL 7). They were fighting two advanced Greater Ceustodaemons (CR 9). This should have been a hard fight, and it was. But they had a more difficult time than I expected. Near the end, the bard walked up to one of the daemons and power attacked it (he had taken 1 level of fighter). The daemon had reach, and it landed an AOO when the bard approached. This left the bard with 9 hp. On its turn, the daemon finished the bard off with a power attack dealing 23 damage.
Part of me wants to say that the bard had it coming. He acted like a fighter when he didn't have the armor, the hit points, or the BAB to do anything worthwhile. But I also think I should have had the daemon do a regular attack (instead of a power attack). It could have easily done 9 damage and left the bard dying but not fully dead.
Does anybody have any experience with players who often make large mistakes like this? Should I just let the PCs die? Or should I take more care to pull my punches?
(The player who died was not too upset about it. He knows that the group can afford to bring him back to life, but he is considering rolling another character.)
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Only you can understand your relationship with your players, but in general, death reinforces the danger that is adventuring. Let players fall when they may and they'll return the wiser for it.
That being said, there's nothing wrong with fudging a roll here or there when it fits with the scene cinematically. That's what the screen is for.
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I try not to kill off characters and occasionally, only as a gm, I will pull my punches to do it. However, if your group knows that you're likely to pull your punches that way, they start acting like you'll always do it. Personally, if bad luck happens, let it go and kill the player. If, on the other hand, this is because you didn't realize that it wasn't just the dark before they got the upper hand and that the challenge really was overpowered for them, then you might want to pull your punches a bit.
Never pull your punches after the fact though. The one time I did was when a player died to a Human slaying arrow and a fellow player (a bard actually) realized that he could have afforded a second saving throw. I let it pass and the player agreed that he was out of this fight, regardless.
As to the "he had it coming since he was a bard" thing, I believe that any class can be good, if they're well played. Bards do great as secondary characters; secondary cleric, secondary wizard/sorcerer, secondary fighter... they fit just about everywhere. Likewise, being a fighter isn't just in the AC or BAB bonus. We have a fighter in a group that I'm playing with who only has a 12 to 14 AC. He's made it up in hit points. The "I have more hit points than you can possibly imagine" route.
Basically, here what I'm saying is let the players do what they want. If occasionally that brings death and destruction raging down upon their heads, all the better. After all, we can't learn if we don't know we've made a mistake, right?
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Blackbloodtroll: This bard was playing the party face and a support role in combat. I think he secretly wanted to be a fighter though. He still hasn't decided on whether or not to let the group revive him or to roll up another character. Everybody wants him to keep the bard though. He did a good job role playing... just not a great job fighting.
Owly: Thanks for the advice. I will fudge a roll here or there. This time I blurted out the damage before I realized that it was enough to kill him.
I'm thinking one solution is to start using hero points. This will even things out for the players, and if they have 2 hero points they could even cheat death.
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Maybe, drop resurrection items in treasure.
I suggest the Salve of the Second Chance.
It's easy to use, but a bit of a gamble.
Very fun.
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Hero points can help take the sting out of death. You can knock the players around and they can keep their characters if they are attached to them. They have to manage that resource like anything else in the game. Its a good way to go.
I had my final CC game on saturday and every single player had to cheat death during the session. The cleric of Gorum went down swinging helping the party defeat the BBEG. Sad that he died but no better way for a follower of Gorum to go then in glorious battle.
Well, I don't know the party history, but 7 players at level 6. Sounds like character death isn't very common in your game. (At least that was the impression I got) If the bard's death was out of the norm, but legit, I'd say it was appropriate not to fudge it.
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Thanks for all the advice, everyone.
Kuzunoha Kaijitsu: I agree, it's important not to let my players think that I will always throw my punches. I'm pretty sure none of them think that though, especially after tonight.
Amir Hiram: I like the way you use hero points. I will consider doing that.
blackbloodtroll: There has already been talk of regeneration. I wasn't aware of the item you linked to. The randomness would actually be really appealing to the PC. I think it might just find its way into a nearby treasure pile.
Martin Kauffman 530: This PC was overly aggressive, I think. He had a previous GM that let him get away with a lot. I want to nudge him back to reality... er... fantasy... well, back to a world with consequences.
Pan: That's a lot of cheating death in one session. I'm really sold on hero points now.
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My DM doesn't fudge his rolls and can't, he rolls where we can all see.
We know that death can happen at anytime. As long as it's fair we don't mind as much when a character dies.
Sounds like a good clean death and you played the enemy exactly as the enemy would have acted.
Yes, there should be consequences, and in this instance I believe it was very appropriate to kill the PC.
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Was the player playing the bard one of the new players or an experienced player?
If newer player I probably would have gone the non-power attack route just to give him a taste of how dangerous it can be for his character to enter melee (or at least I'd feel bad for forgetting to go a little softer). For an experienced player, nah, PCs can die.
I am personally completely split between what I like in my head versus what actually happens in my games on this topic.
In my head, I like the idea that PCs can and will die. Not a lot, but one PC per level or every other level maybe. Maybe that's too much, hehe, but "now and again" anyway...to help foster the idea of why most of the people of the land don't just run off every day searching through ruins for loot that will make let them live in opulence for the rest of their lives (unskilled laborers make 2 gp/month (UC, Downtime) so with 1,000 gp they could live their normal lifestyle for 40 years and not have to work).
In reality, however, I've found that even throwing in a CR equal to APL+3 they tend to do just fine. And death tends to occur to only one player (in my campaign and another DM's) so much so that the other players will jokingly point it out now and again. But the other DM and I are pretty sure it's because this player makes anything but melee-tanks yet he plays his characters like they are (generally). So with that player, when he's about to do something that I, as the DM, think is clearly going to get him killed I try to make sure his character has all the appropriate-for-its-level knowledge of the situation (like the time he wanted his sorcerer/rogue to insult-then throw his dagger at the lead, of three, beholder "diplomats" when the CR was waaaaaay over the APL. "These are beholders," I said. "I know." "Like, they can disintegrate, stone-person, anti-magic." "Yeah." "What's your character's intelligence and wisdom?" "Both over 11." "Okay, yeah, your character's 99% certain these things could kill you, real quick." "Ah, okay, I don't do that then."). There are times he listens, and there are times he doesn't and it's turned out when he doesn't listen to the DM warnings those are the times his characters die (though he pleasantly surprises me when doesn't die :) ).
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I would personally hate if a monster decided not to power attack because the GM was trying to take it easy with me. To me there's no point in playing the game if you're not going to play for keeps.
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Do not pull your punches. Ever. Act as the NPCs would act. In this case, that makes perfect sense--daemons aren't exactly known for fudging their attacks or leaving an enemy alive (unless they want to torture him, perhaps). The bard had it coming.
If you wish to reduce such incidences, the time and place to donor is encounter design, not die rolling. Also, make sure that the party has a decent chance of understanding the level of threat--unless they have no Knowledge or Sense Motive skills worth a damn, or the enemy is particularly skilled at hiding its power. But once the bard decides to charge in like an idiot through the daemon's reach, it's too late--anything less than the daemon gutting the bard like a trout (or at leasts trying its best to do so) would be unbelievable.
I don't stay at tables where I suspect that the GM fudges combat rolls. There's just no fun when there's no risk.
When I start a new campaign, I allways have a talk of expectations with my players beforehand. Part of that talk is hero death. My players like a tactical challenge, and treats combat, character optimization and tactical use of the battlefield as a cherished part of the game. For them, pulling the punches would ruin the fun. That being said, we are also aware that we're playing a larger story, so it's generally accepted that TPKs are a baaad thing, and that I as GM will try to keep at least one man alive (trough capture or something similar).
So, have you talked to your players about it? You might discover they don't mind, and that the player in question walked up to the deamon, because combat had lost its flavour. Pathfinder is a social game, where the goal is for everyone to have fun and maintain a long investment of time. Common goals is important, and since mindreading is hard, asking questions is a good way to ensure that everyone is playing the same game.
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It sounds like a fair death to me. You said that reviving is within reach at this point. To extend a helping hand, maybe you can throw in some religious art objects in this loot pile that the local temple will value highly, giving the players a discount on revival. However, you've made the point that a lightly-armored skirmisher (Bard) shouldn't forget he's a bit fragile. Fragile enough that he wants to be careful about monster AoOs.
You said the player wants to go more martial. Maybe if his PC revives, this will stimulate him to multiclass further into Fighter, or another full martial class.
Being raised from the dead might make a PC think about just how fragile he is, and embrace a more armored class with more HP. That way, he doesn't have to abandon an otherwise succesful and beloved character, but he'll still get his kicks in melee.
An interesting option at this point is the Dragon Disciple prestige class. He should easily be able to qualify (Knowledge Arcana 5, cast spontaneous arcane spells). It's a class that'll give him D12 hp, bonuses to Strength and Natural AC and still some bard casting. The claws and bite you get from bloodline powers mesh nicely with both Power Attack and the Arcane Strike feat (which is awesome for bards).
Rising from the dead is a great moment to realise that You Want To Be A Dragon.
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I think that PCs should certainly experience death. I would avoid having it become a regular thing, but death needn't necessarily be feared. If anything, as long as the whole group doesn't die and depending on level and wealth it can be a very simple and quick remedy. Even if it is at a low level and wealth you can achieve the resurrection of PCs through story elements.
Three PCs approach the temple of Abadar to talk to the head priest. The ask for their freind to be revived but lack the money or ability to do so themselves. The priest agrees to help, but tells them they must accept a deal to do work for the church. He places all the living PCs under a geas (they forgo their save automatically) as well as some other pact magic ( I know there are spells that do this sort of thing I just forget the names). After it's all done and the PCs have willingly agreed to help and accepted the magical bonds they original PC is revived. Now the players must fulfill the commitments they have made to the church.
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Short answer: In this situation, the bard deserved to die. He walked through an AoO to take a stab, knowing that the demon would go next. The player will learn a valuable lesson about running up to monsters without the HP or AC to take the hits.
Long answer: I am a "softie" GM. We're in book 6 of Rise of the Runelords and I've killed 3 PCs and Feebleminded one. Less than one a book is "soft". But I was having a discussion about this just yesterday with one of my players, and he made an excellent point (while refusing to pay out of the party funds to get my life oracle a scroll of Breath of Life): If no PCs ever die, and the players know that there is no risk of dying, they start being careless and doing stupid things (like running up to cuestodaemons).
Careful players shouldn't die because of bad rolls. Ogre hooks are wonderful examples of "one bad roll spoils the fun", and from the original RotRL to the anniversary edition they reduced the crit from x4 to x3 just to avoid these "one hit wonders".
Bad deaths I've seen:
- As the party is crossing a narrow bridge, a Summon Monster trap summons an erinyes on a 4th-level party. She shoots the heck out of the party while they're trying to make Acrobatics checks to avoid falling 200' to the raging river below. That's just plain "I want to kill a PC" mean.
- As the party enters the front door of a building, they're hit with Circle of Death, killing half the party before they even know who's in there.
- As the friendly fighter tries to help a traveler, ghouls with levels of rogue pop up and backstab him for over 150 damage before he gets an action.
All of those are just, "Oh, by the way, you weren't doing anything stupid, but you're dead anyway," situations.
Just fine deaths I've seen:
- The party knew Miss X was a major danger and was waiting at the top of the tower, but walked on in anyway, so she got a surprise round against the barbarian, then a full-round action. He was dead before they could move. Same exact situation as the fighter, *except* the party knew that they were entering a room with an incredibly-dangerous foe. Foreshadowing is everything. It wasn't, "You meet a traveler in need of aid. Do you help him? You do? OK, you're dead."
- Any fight where the mainline fighters just get overwhelmed and take too much damage to survive. That's the life of a fighter.
Questionable deaths:
- The barbarian dropped in a fight with some alu demons. The paladin tried to drag him to safety. I ruled that the alu demons were all about destroying love, so since the paladin obviously loved the barbarian since she was risking herself saving him, they stabbed him to death
So in my opinion, PC deaths are fine as long as they're significant and within the context of the story and world, or if they're because the PC did something silly. (We had a guy in Runequest with a Climb of 40% try to scale a 2000-foot tower just to get the skill roll. (A climing master had already set up a rope system he could use, but he wouldn't get the check mark.) The player was upset when he fell and died. Seriously?)
I despise, "Surprise! You're dead! Because I'm the GM and I can kill you at any time!" deaths, and, "Oops! Sorry! Rolled a triple crit! You're dead!" deaths.
I have no issues with, "You were in a massive fight and you just ran out of hit points," or, "You're facing the BBEG and he/she manages to kill one of you," deaths, nor, "You knowingly put yourself in mortal peril and died as a result," deaths.
I only really pull punches when it's clear to me that I'M the one that did something wrong, i.e. I threw something at them they had close to no chance dealing with because of build or party dynamics, when I should have worked to create an encounter that will be challenging but winnable.
I pull a *little* when a new campaign starts, because I usually have one or two people new to tabletop when that happens, and I killing them off right away just wouldn't be a nice introduction.
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"There are no foolish players. Only poor Game Masters."
If the player is fully aware of the potential consequences of their actions, it's appropriate their PC dies. But if they do something foolish enough to puzzle you, you may have failed as a GM to convey the risks involved, especially ones a character actually living in the game world would know about. This article explains it in better detail.
Here, I see potential fault. Was the player aware the monsters had reach? This is information you shouldn't withhold because his character would clearly see the monsters' size would enable them to reach 10 feet away. The player probably would not have approached the monster if he knew it would provoke an attack of opportunity. If the player did know and choose to provoke an attack of opportunity anyway, then his character's death is on his head.
Before punishing a player for their mistake, make sure your vision of the world is consistent with theirs.
If the player is fully aware of the potential consequences of their actions, it's appropriate their PC dies.
Was the player aware the monsters had reach? This is information you shouldn't withhold because his character would clearly see the monsters' size would enable them to reach 10 feet away. The player probably would not have approached the monster if he knew it would provoke an attack of opportunity. If the player did know and choose to provoke an attack of opportunity anyway, then his character's death is on his head.
Yes, it's heavily-edited, but this is the part that I agree with wholeheartedly.
When my PCs do something like that, I always say, "That's going to provoke an attack of opportunity. Do you still proceed?"It's so ingrained into me I'd never considered the possibility that you hadn't warned him about the AoO.
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TPK!! TPK!! TPK!!
Ok, just kidding... I've been GMing for almost 20 years, for home games, tournaments, and Living Campaigns.
My feeling, as a GM, is that - while it's ok to fudge a die roll a little bit if it's just a case of bad luck - a GM should not try to protect players from themselves. If a player made a bad decision, and it led to his/her death, then so be it.
There are multiple ways to resurrect a character, and they are there for a reason (and a lot easier to access in modern games than in the past, in my experience). And a player may also want to play something different instead.
Typically, the most I will do to fudge a roll is ignore a crit, or maybe goes as much as half the damage on the die less, but players should feel that there is a sense of danger, and death is a possibility -otherwise, what's the point?
To 'up the ante' as it were, my current GM has even ruled out the possibility of rez.
If the player is fully aware of the potential consequences of their actions, it's appropriate their PC dies.
Was the player aware the monsters had reach? This is information you shouldn't withhold because his character would clearly see the monsters' size would enable them to reach 10 feet away. The player probably would not have approached the monster if he knew it would provoke an attack of opportunity. If the player did know and choose to provoke an attack of opportunity anyway, then his character's death is on his head.Yes, it's heavily-edited, but this is the part that I agree with wholeheartedly.
When my PCs do something like that, I always say, "That's going to provoke an attack of opportunity. Do you still proceed?"It's so ingrained into me I'd never considered the possibility that you hadn't warned him about the AoO.
Oh, wow. I hadn't thought of that either. : / It's safe to say that most characters know when they're threatened and, thus, it's reasonable to inform the player of the ramifications of their chosen action.
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Player death happens. Just because they are PCs doesn't mean they are the heros of destiny (unless you want them to be). Adventuring is very dangerous, death should be a part of it.
Well, I've never had a player die from one of our games. That's a little more hardcore than I'm used to. Are you the DM from those Jack Chick tracts?
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Player death happens. Just because they are PCs doesn't mean they are the heros of destiny (unless you want them to be). Adventuring is very dangerous, death should be a part of it.Well, I've never had a player die from one of our games. That's a little more hardcore than I'm used to. Are you the DM from those Jack Chick tracts?I'm not familiar with this. So I guess the answer is no.
I don't seek to kill my players mind you. But I don't save them either. Bad luck on dice, going into an area they can't handle (either they weren't paying attention to the warning signs, or sheer player greed) and poor tactical decisions can all attribute to player death.
O_O
@Captain Wacky, blahpers was making a joke about the player dying instead of the player's character dying
It sounds to me like your group is fine with the occasional party death, so don't worry about it. It's not your fault the bard died, nor is it really the bard's player's fault. It just happened.
I don't pull punches except when I have to (when a player is so sensitive that they can't have fun if their PC dies, really). I regard it as something distasteful, and it hurts my personal suspension of disbelief. If you have a group that doesn't mind death, I say be thankful. ;D
All day long. If there is no threat of death then the game looses a lot of its excitement.
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One of the "Problems" of Pathfinder is that we put so much effort into designing our characters that when they die it can be crushing. At the same time if they never die it eventually starts to feel like a foregone conclusion and just going through the motions.
I made limb loss rules and a chart they can roll on instead of dying at neg con... most of the time you're worse off rolling on that chart though and its going to bite me in the butt when every session is going to start with, "I want a sweet robot arm" but whatevs.
I don't mind killing people though, if one of my players goes down to a crit or something than that blows but I dunno... get raised or deal with it? Really, in a game where you run around trying to hit guys three to four times larger than you with swords or karate, you'd think people would expect to see people die a lot.
I've pulled punches though, stopped people I like from dying if they really seem to be getting ripped off. I keep it secret though. I'll also straight up ice someone if I know they're cheating, but I like to think of that as some kind of neat justice thing from the gods.
It's never appropriate to kills a PC, but it's always appropriate to let a PC get themselves killed.
Thank you! This is more what I was trying to say when I said I pulled my punches. If there was no chance of death, it would lose the fun. I've killed one character in my latest adventure path, and almost taken one characters hand twice, but I find players have a lot more fun in that spot between panic and dead, when they're on the edge and pulling out everything possible to win.
When I set my encounters for the players, I had few things to consider. First, depends on how dramatic the encounter is, I will adjust how hard or easy the encounter would be. You don't want to give them hard encounter all the time, and it is completely okay to let the players fight a normal boar even if they are level 10 as long as they are up for it and have reason to do so. In this case, you can ensure the players will only be risking their lives in dramatic moment, and it is worth dying for.
Then you have to see how the team build up, if the team has no arcane caster, don't give out an enemy with massive AC and damage reduction along with mind control. Know you team's weakness and only use it when it is important.
Also, if the team are having a hard time, you may want to plan ahead to pull your punch back. However, if the players are acting silly like trying to grapple a slime knowing it is going to kill him when he only have 4 health left, and he could have just walked away to wait for his cleric to heal him. Then just let him die. He doesn't have the attachment with the character anyway. Likewise to those who gone out of their ways to harm other players and characters, karma!!!!
All day long. If there is no threat of death then the game looses a lot of its excitement.
Next game I'm going to run is going to involve all random people locked in a cellar. I'll be DMing them through a meat grinder dungeon via a loudspeaker and computer monitor. If (when) their characters die I'm going to trigger the homemade bomb collar I placed on them while they were drugged, and then I'm going to sell videos of the session online.
This project is still in the planning stages, but if you're interested in helping out either through money, "volunteering" someone you know, or knowledge of friendly jurisdictions for the event to take place, let me know. The kickstarter page should be up shortly.
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Hey, you said this collar was for in case I got lost!
Players have died hundreds of times over the decades in my campaigns.
I've never specifically targeted a player or character for death, but it happens.
Back in 1e and 2e AD&D, it happened often.
Put on that strange cloak? Cloak of Poisonousness, You're Dead.
Death Spell? Dead.
Necklace of Strangulation? well, you're not dead now, but divide your HP by (x) and you'll be dead in that many rounds.
Got bit by that critter with Type E Poison? 20HP or Dead.
I find they die much less often in PF with its "You're not REALLY dead until you're at -CON." and fewer instant death effects. But it still happens. Especially when facing things like Shadows, which'll drop that 10STR Wizard down pretty fast.
I've been known to fudge rolls when it seems appropriate and have lessened the lethality of traps and hazards on the fly if they turn out too deadly.
I've seen guys storm out of Society games because their cheese character died to a crit. At the same time I kill characters all the time.
"But if the bow crits me then I'm dead"
Me: "Yep. You're dead."
I play with experienced player. Death is part of the game. Hero points can be part of the game but hey guess what, sometimes you fail that save-or-die twice in a row. That's the way the dice fall.
It's absolutely juvenile for any character to expect their PC to be immortal. Not to mention silly from a narrative point of view. My 2 copper.
While I do agree that it should happen like this in a society game because things like this happens in any normal society, tragedy happens. However, in a normal campaign, I do believe it's GM's job to tell the story, not to kill all the time. If tragedy happens, it should be dramatic and meaningful. Not always have to be in a boss fight. Could be after a big epic battle, each member getting slaughtered by the weaklings because they are all heavier injured and have no spells left. All their items got broken and God could no longer save them. Then they may die knowing at less they did something epic in their lives, and learn that it's not about how long you live, it's how you live it.
