So I have this idea I kind of want to try. Instead of a controling a single character each player will control a kingdom. Using the Kingdom building and Mass combat rules from the Ultimate Campaign we have a battle for supremacy with the GM playing the role of fate and chance. The problem is I don't think I have the experience to successfully do something like this on my own. So what I am wondering is several things.
First, has anyone out there done something like this?
Second is there anyone interested in playing a game like this?
Third is there anyone interested in colaborating with me to GM something like this?
sounds interesting i would give it a try but i doubt i could help with collaboration.
Birthright. Ask GM Elton.
I might be able to collaborate with this I've run Kingmaker and Dawn of Worlds games. I think something like that could be a great deal of fun. Do you have a world map in mind? Preferably blank as far as names and titles.
Also question one of many I'm sure,
Do we want to progress through ages or assume a default starting time.
I could really get into this.
Oh man, if you guys can get this off the ground I'd be extremely interested in playing!
On the idea of ages, if you're accepting input. A sort of Age of Empires/Civilization theme sounds kind of cool but I think I'd prefer if it covered a smaller timeframe.
I'd rather get into the nitty gritty of a couple centuries at most rather than do things in the broader strokes that would be required of a game that spanned actual ages of development.
Just my 2cp.
I think that would work better too plus it would let us set the theme and set up of the world better.
My thinking was that the players would start out with a specific number of build points they can spend on thier kingdom. I have a couple of large hex maps that are free of labels that I think will work for laying out the kingdoms on. Once the kingdoms are built the way the players want we start actual play. Without having to develop their kingdom from tribal villages we will get more interesting interactions. Alliances, betrayals, wars, etc.
The hex maps I have are something like 19000 hexs and all they have on them is coast line and rivers. I can get them with mountains, forests and other geographical features placed randomly but that can be kinda hit or miss.
Well since you have the maps, if you can pick one that you think would be solid we can work from there. Also if you want to move the discussion into PM's I have some ideas/questions on the setting and background we want to set up ahead of time. I have learned that a setting or game like this is much more satisfying if you have a history that makes sense and that the players can draw from.
I would definitely be interested in something like this.
I'd imagine the "character creation" process would be spending build points on the kingdom and building a history for the people. That works better if people are more or less interactive with one another.
This is true and we are working on how to hash out the mechanics for character creation among a few other things. I expect #33 or I will be posting updates pretty regularly on here.
That sounds excellent. I look forward to what you two come up with!
This sounds quite interesting.
So how is the planning process going guys?
Looks damn interesting :3
I have the strangest desire to create a kingdom of ghosts for this. XD Still, it seems interesting, and I guess I'll be keeping tabs on how it develops.
I'll really like to join. I'm DM in two kingdom campaign (homebrew and kingmaker AP), so I know the rules. I'm not so experienced on PbP for being a GM, but would like to play this as a PC or better as a "PK" (Player Kingdom).
I think me and #33 are close to starting recruitment. If he and I can settle on a timeline. I will post our timeline when it's done and then we can start looking at kingdom concepts.
To answer DFsearles, I think we might go for a standard dice roll, and perhaps allow build points to be spent on 'exceptional leaders' and maybe allow points to be earned back with something like 'Skeleton crew'
I think me and #33 are close to starting recruitment. If he and I can settle on a timeline. I will post our timeline when it's done and then we can start looking at kingdom concepts.
To answer DFsearles, I think we might go for a standard dice roll, and perhaps allow build points to be spent on 'exceptional leaders' and maybe allow points to be earned back with something like 'Skeleton crew'
If it were me, I'd straight up charge build points for the leaders: 1 build point for a level 3 NPC class, 2 build points for a level 3 PC class (using the superior stat array), and maybe something like 3 build points for a level 3 'custom' character with non-core race and 4d6 for stats. That way players are balancing their kingdom's leaders against other stuff they could buy for their kingdom.
Just an idea I thought I'd throw in.
I you're on to something, including leaders as just another resource for your kingdom is a great idea in my opinion.
Thanks for your interest and enthusiasm. Hopefully Tobaris and I can put something together that will be worthy of your enthusiasm. Feel free to start working on concepts for your kingdoms. To give you some basics of the setting your kingdoms/nations are the remnants of a world spanning empire. That empire has fallen and vanished. You decide what motivates your kingdom. Is it a quest for domination, a return to the mythic golden age of the empire, peace and prosperity, or simply survival? You decide the culture of your kingdom. Did it develop after the fall of the empire, or was it there before the empire and is now re-emerging. You decide the religious beliefs of your kingdom. Does it worship a pantheon of gods or hold one god supreme? Are you evil or good?(yes evil alignments will be allowed)
Asume a basic fantasy type setting with all the basic fantasy races. Your kingdom can have populations of all these races or consist of just one. If you want a race besides one of the basic fantasy races ask and we will consider it.
When you say 'all the basic fantasy races', do you mean all the Core races, or are you including goblins, kobolds, orcs, and so on as well? (ie, just excluding the native outsiders and rarer races like catfolk, ratfolk, etc.)
Ok, I like the idea of the fallen empire. Gives us lots to work with.
My main question is what does the rest of the setting look like? Are the traditional pathfinder planes in existence, are the planar races, fiends, celestials and that sort of thing present? If so I imagine they are uncommon just like in Golarion, yes?
Or would you be adding them into the setting one at a time based on player interest?
basic fantasy races Elves, Dwarves, Humans, Halflings, and Orcs. If you want a particular race because it is important to your kingdoms concept let me know what it is and we will consider it.
I was thinking about a Kobold tribe kingdom with a associated dragon "god"
Huh, I was actually considering pitching the same thing:P
The kobold kingdom is a possiblity but Kobolds normally don't have kingdoms in fantasy worlds. Possibly due to thier small size and weakness to light. If your pitch is good I will probably allow it. So far everyone who is interested in playing is in unless they insist on something that is completely unworkable like a kingdom of half god gollem dragons. It is going to be anothe week or two to get things setup and ready so please have patience.
My idea is for a nation of Orcs Half-Orcs, giants ect. LE based on war culture. Like samurai orcs.
Sounds great #33. I'll want some time to consider my idea for a kingdom anyway to I'm in no rush initially.
I'll keep you updated as I settle on some concepts.
This is Amir's player. I now have a pretty good idea of what I want, as far as race and concept goes, and how I think this concept could fit into the given backstory (ashes of an old empire).
Below is a rough idea for what I'd like to submit when we have a more complete idea of what to submit. I expect I'll have to edit it a lot when the time comes; for now, though, I wanted to get the idea out of my head and into print. I'm open to changing anything that makes the concept not fit into the context of the remnants of a once mighty empire. (I based the Crescent off of Egypt, and I wrote it such that the Crescent was a vassal state / province of the Empire.)
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The Sunkissed Confederacy (Lawful Neutral)
It was that arrogance that would be their downfall. When the Empire first collapsed, the people of the Crescent saw an opportunity to expand. Renaming themselves the Crescent Empire, they quickly moved to annex nearby city-states and villages. Their slave-soldiers were pivotal in these conflicts, moreso than they ever had been before, for the Crescent no longer could depend on the Empire's greater forces to assist them. It was not long before the slaves realized this.
The first revolt took place on the front lines as Mekmet II (a merchant prince with considerable skill as a general) laid siege to a mountain fortress belonging to a neighboring kingdom. It was a summer's night, and the camp was in wonderful spirits. Victory seemed to be mere days away, as the invading Crescent army had ample supplies while it was rumored that the besieged were eating leather scraps and rats to survive. While the humans were feasting and drinking heartily, the entirety of the slave battalions with the army attacked. Though the lizardfolk sustained considerable losses (approximately twenty percent of their warriors), they had won, slaughtering every last one of their former masters. With that, they left the mountain fortress in peace, marching home to free the rest of their comrades.
The next three years were bloody and chaotic. Lizardfolk slaves revolted all over the Crescent, overthrowing their masters in bloody coups. It was a time marked with terrible vengeance and cultural purging of all things belonging to their former masters. Many of the great pyramids were torn apart or damaged. Libraries were burned. The palace of the capital, Istal, was looted. Those humans who tried to flee by ship found themselves sinking to watery deaths. In short, centuries of slavery were repaid with acts of genocide, and the lizardfolk showed mercy only to the children... and sometimes not even them. When the last city in the region was finally captured by the lizardfolk rebels, they gave the remaining humans in their land an ultimatum: Leave or die. Half of the human population had been slaughtered. The rest accepted defeat and left to find sanctuary in distant realms.
A new realm arose from the ashes of the Crescent Empire, but it sat in a precarious position due to internal and external reasons. Internally, there was little unity among the lizardfolk; many of them had recorded their histories through oral traditions and could trace their lineage back to their original tribes. These different tribes worshiped different gods in their pantheon, some of whom were in direct opposition with each other. Exacerbating this problem was the fact that no single lizard could call itself the ruler of this new realm; different lizardfolk swore allegiance to different heroes of the revolution, usually the one who first set them free. Worse, the political future of the kingdom looked bleak at best. The refugees who fled the Crescent talked of murderous, bloodthirsty lizardlings who had taken their homes from them. Nearby nations would not recognize free lizardfolk as anything but monsters, and the means by which they had earned their freedom would only give human kingdoms cause to invade.
The tribes convened to solve these problems. After some persuasive words from a young firebrand from the Sandspear tribe, Zamir, the tribes agreed to form a league of tribes, gathering every ten years to elect whichever tribe they wished to lead them. They held their first election at that gathering, and they chose to place the Sandspear in charge; the Sandspear, in turn, chose Zamir to lead them. The lizardfolk then, after long discourse, found a name for their fledgling nation: The Sunkissed Confederacy.
The Confederacy is still a very young nation, and despite their bloody revolution, they still find themselves heavily influenced by their dead masters. Many of the most powerful members of the tribes have taken to wearing the loose, white robes of the Magi. Young lizardfolk still go diving for pearls, still go into the mines and quarries to gather ore and stone. Some still farm, though many lizardlings have taken to going onto sailing vessels and using nets to fish from the sea instead. In these ways, the lives of these scaled peoples have not changed much. However, there is one very important distinction: They are free now. They gather these supplies and this wealth to support themselves, not to feed hateful masters.
The future of the Confederacy is still bleak, and its rule still very decentralized, but High Chief Zamir has tried to enter into negotiations with various nations, even very distant ones. His goal is to find nations that will recognize the Sunkissed Confederacy as a legitimate realm. Knowing that he must have something to offer nations willing to take a risk in recognizing his people, he has been recruiting members from all the tribes to serve as mercenaries for foreign nations; after all, the Crescent lizardfolk have fought many long wars in the past and proven themselves on countless occasions. Why shouldn't this expertise in war be used to profit the realm and legitimize it among the world's other powers? Meanwhile, he is making attempts to better unify the people and recover whatever magical artifacts and works of literature that remain of the Crescent Empire. While his kinsmen may scorn these works, he believes they may be valuable in the future, at the very least as something to trade...
Only time will tell if this fledgling league of tribes will survive. For now, it must still find allies in a world that views it with distrust.
Physical Description
The lizardfolk of the Crescent come in two ranges of colors: Brown to gold and different shades of blue. The brown and gold lizardfolk were bred to endure the heat of the desert and to be strong, capable warriors and tireless workers. The blue lizardfolk, on the other hand, have long served as marines and rowers in the fleets of the Crescent Magi and are comfortable swimming through rivers and the ocean, diving for pearls and coral and fish alike.
It is virtually impossible for non-lizardfolk to discern a male lizard from a female lizard; they are roughly the same size (with the females being just a bit larger on average) and are equally capable in most any field. One is just as likely to find female lizardfolk serving in the front lines as they are to find their male counterparts.
Crescent lizardfolk tend to be taller and leaner than their swamp-dwelling kin, but they are just as strong and hardy. A rare few have been known to stand almost eight feet tall, and they are often employed in the vanguard of the Confederacy's armies.
Confederacy lizardfolk dress and garb themselves much as they did in their days as slaves. Their clothing is minimal, usually covering their loins and parts of their legs with a sash draped over one of their shoulders. Influential lizardfolk dress much as their former masters did, wearing the jeweled clothes of merchant princes or the white robes of the Magi. Lizardfolk armor seems exotic to outsiders because of its gladiatorial appearance; this, too, stems from their days as slaves, as they were trained to be gladiators before they were trained to fight on the frontlines.
Color me intrigued.
Currently have 1 idea in my head, namely a (somewhat typical) dwarven nation based in a mountain region. Probably one big city in the mountain and a few smaller ones providing in additional supplies like lumber/food/...
Mostly busy with mining/crafting/defending their home. This might change however if a more expansion driven leader comes to power over the years. (maybe after being attacked one to many times ;))
I am sorry to have to announce that real life has gotten in the way of gaming. Niether Tobaris or I have time to run this game. We appreciate the interest that has been shown and are sorry to dissappoint you all. Thanks again for your interest.
Well that's...unfortunate.
But such is life here on the Paizo forums. I wish you both luck sorting out the perils of RL.
Perhaps one of our interested parties would be able to help us salvage your great concept?
I've never actually run a Kingmaker game or even been a part of one, nor have I ever used the Ultimate Campaign rules... but I'd love to see this thing kick off.
I'd be a horrible GM of any sort for this, but otherwise I'd be happy to help get a game started if I somehow could.
I am sorry to have to announce that real life has gotten in the way of gaming. Niether Tobaris or I have time to run this game. We appreciate the interest that has been shown and are sorry to dissappoint you all. Thanks again for your interest.
I just found this thread... I was already to dot it for interest, then I saw this. Sad :(
Still, dotting it in case anyone else comes along. I'm actually willing to consider running it, too. No promises, but now that the idea has been seeded, I'll mull it over for a bit. I've run Kingmaker before, although we only got through book 3 and we were using a heavily modded version of the original kingdom rules.
For the players who may still be interested (#33 and Tobaris included), if I were to do this, what would you be looking for in terms of gameplay? Would it just be you posting kingdom rounds and me handling the world? Would you each have embassies with each other so you could interact? Would you want to roleplay out your people dealing with events? Or just the kingdom as a whole dealing with them? Or just writing one-off story posts to describe how the kingdom reacts?
Roleplay is definitely big for me. I'd want to do a bit more than just say "I build <X> building," probably; I'd like to make negotiations with other players as my character(s?). I'd probably prefer to mostly interact using "the kingdom" and the leader of the nation, and not roleplay the footsoldiers and the like; perhaps I'd roleplay an emissary when trying to negotiate.
I will say that I'm rather new to the Mass Combat and nation building rules, though I've read over them in the past. I'd love to use them, but never have put them to the test before.
If someone were to go ahead and carry forward with this, I would definitely want to focus heavily on roleplaying, and it might not be a bad idea to let players roleplay as several different characters, allowing more interaction by representing not only the actions of the ruler, but also their ambassador(s), general(s), etc. Would be interested in how to handle activities during the other three weeks each month too. (Would we go exploring and fight monsters in order to claim more land and level up?)
If someone were to go ahead and carry forward with this, I would definitely want to focus heavily on roleplaying, and it might not be a bad idea to let players roleplay as several different characters, allowing more interaction by representing not only the actions of the ruler, but also their ambassador(s), general(s), etc. Would be interested in how to handle activities during the other three weeks each month too. (Would we go exploring and fight monsters in order to claim more land and level up?)
As the potential GM, I wouldn't want to keep track of the casts of characters required to have entire ruling councils interacting with their townsfolk on a regular basis. At that point, I'm closer to running multiple one-player games set in the same world. Likewise for having each kingdom's "heroes" go tromping off into the wilderness.
I'm more in line with what Inlaa would be thinking, where it's "The kingdom" acting, the Ruler being the main character controlled by each player, and the other members of the ruling council being bit parts as needed.
That said, I'd be perfectly fine if the leaders of each kingdom had some way of interacting with each other, and each player played as many or as few of their leaders as they wanted. I'm also fine with playing a member of each kingdom's ruling council myself, (probably the Councillor) as a way to feed information to each player. I just don't want to devolve a kingdom-level game into a standard wilderness crawl or urban adventure.
If anyone from this thread is interested, I posted an interest-check for a mechanics-heavy kingdom campaign over here. I expect it to be very roleplay-lite, but it will (hopefully) do a lot with the kingdom rules.