Interest check: Playing Ultimate Campaign as a Civilization-style game


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Ever since the Kingmaker rules have come out, I've had a desire to play a game about kingdom building, rather than a game which involved kingdom building. One where the PCs were secondary to what the kingdom as a whole was doing. With Ultimate Campaign (and possibly the Ultimate Rulership and Ultimate Battle addons), it's now actually feasible to try something like that.

So, this is an interest check and idea thread for a Pathfinder-ish kingdom game. Players would be playing as a Kingdom, or at least its entire leadership council. Kingdoms would be placed in the same area of the world, but far enough apart that they could (probably) expand for a while before running into each other. Where these kingdoms come from is open for negotiation: You could start as vassals or explorers from a shared starting kingdom, journeying out into the unknown by land or by sea; travelers from another dimension which just appear in the middle of nowhere, either intentionally or by accident; or simply be the leaders of native populations that all decided to start banding together into a kingdom around the same time.

This would probably be roleplay-lite. There is a frame story set by the origin, and I may create events related to it, but the focus is more on the numbers and kingdom growth than character interaction. Negotiations would get at least RPed on at least a basic level, and I'm open to the idea of the leaders having some way to remain in contact even if the kingdoms themselves are not. In the same vein, events would require some description of how they're being handled, possibly with some small interactive scenes, but it wouldn't be the primary focus. Leadership characters would not necessarily need to be fully statted out, and kingdom players could choose any or all of them to RP as appropriate to the scene.

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If this type of game interests you, read on:

Rules & sources:

I'd like to play with the Ultimate Rulership and Ultimate Battle rules, but they're not on d20pfsrd, and the basic Ultimate campaign rules are. I'm willing to make sections of them into a file of house rules, for those who don't have access to them, or we could discuss just playing by the basic campaign rules.

Likewise, I'm not sure which optional rules we're going to want to include, and I'm open to discussion on those.

I have a set of house rules already which include specific resources (such as Iron) which can be refined into a more valuable form by certain buildings (such as a Smithy turning Iron -> Tools). They're written for the Kingmaker rules, but they should convert over well. This is another house rule we might want to include.

Tools:

The Paizo forums seem like they may not be the best way to manage something like this, although I wouldn't want to automatically abandon them altogether. I think Obsidian Portal might be the best way to handle most of this, possibly using roll20 for maps. I have an ascendant account, so we would have access to the game forum, single-player-only pages to keep kingdom stats secret, and things like that. We could do rolls and RP posts here, or we could do rolls on roll20 and posts on the OP forum. Again, open to discussion.

Kingdom creation:

I'm not entirely sure yet what type of creation method I'd use for the initial setup. It may depend on the frame story. Probably there will be a way to buy leadership stats or other kingdom advantages (like nearby resources or a unusual race) with starting BP, leaving less to build with.

I would probably be looking for 2-5 players who could all commit to at least one kingdom-month's post (that is, one Kingdom action) per week. It's slow, but Kingdom turns can have a lot more going on than a combat turn. I'm certainly open to faster posting - that's just the lowest minimum I'd be looking for.

If this still interests you, or you have suggestions on how to run it, or ideas for any of the things that are are vague now, let me know!


Aside from the fact that it's past midnight...

I have an interest.

I once did something like this....waaayy way back, oh god...pre-college. Micronations...somethign or other. I don't recall the name of the world it was set in. Last time I mentioned it to someone they knew exactly what I was talking about (hell, even the island I was the Duke of, or at least the island that existed in the larger world which had been otherwise unpopulated and then borrowed for the forum I was a part of).

AH HA. I found it.

Thank you Google Image search. Woo.

http://www.micras.org/maps/pawelspecial.png

Upper right corner at 40d north there's Lovapesa, that was the island chain we used.

Our little thing didn't last very long, not enough active players. But I remember having a good time though.

Man. That was so long ago.


I would be quite interested in this but i dont have access to ultimate rulership/battle, that said if you were willing to do the file of houserules idea, im a very quick learner :)
The thought of being able to build a kingdom of goblins (like my namesake)... Priceless and worth any hurdle to go over :)
So this is my very interested dot!


Gobo Horde wrote:

The thought of being able to build a kingdom of goblins (like my namesake)... Priceless and worth any hurdle to go over :)

So this is my very interested dot!

Excellent! Mechanically, a kingdom of goblins (or any other race) would automatically get their racial modifiers applied to their leader's stats, after whatever system we use. So the Goblin General would have a -1, but the Goblin Marshal would have +2. Also, Ultimate Rulership has rules for wooden buildings (instead of the default stone)... half the cost to build, but -10 to stability checks to avoid damage to them. Sounds perfect for goblins :)


Definitely interested, though I haven't seen Ultimate Rulership or Battle..

Is summoning elder things a victory condition, or simply an end game condition? :P

Lantern Lodge

This certainly sounds like something that I would be interested in. I do have the Ultimate Campaign book, but not the others.

Would t his be something that is victory condition based, or would it be something that is more conquest oriented? It would certainly make things more interesting if there were ways to victory that did not include simple military conquest.

Actually reminds me of the old Birthright setting back in late 2nd Ed D&D.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I am intrigued by this. Count me as interested... no clue what sort of kingdom I would be creating, but I'll think of something for sure.

Where can I find the Ultimate Rulership and Ultimate Battle rules? (are there books by those names? I'm not familiar with them). I'd like to look over them.


Ultimate Rulership and Ultimate Battle are third party books from Legendary Games. UR, at least, is written by the same person who revised the kingdom rules for Ultimate Campaign, and basically has everything he wanted to include, but wasn't picked up by Paizo. I think UB is the same for Mass Combat.

There's a good summary of each on those pages.


Very, very interested.

I have Ultimate Campaign and am definitely picturing the kingdom I'd like to build. Actually, I'm picturing several, but two spring to mind as worth mentioning. One is a relatively standard human kingdom recently forged out of nomadic clans, still clinging to their tribal structures as they transition into a more sedentary nation. The other would largely depend on your willingness to tolerate the monstrous, but a kingdom of sahuagin would be loads of fun.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I'm thinking maybe a theocracy of some sort. Whether it's devoted to a good and righteous deity or an undead-using/devil-worshipping society remains to be seen...

Alternately, an aquatic kingdom of some sort would be awesome. I wouldn't want to step on Sai Ling's toes if he wanted to claim the Sahuagin idea, though.


I've never done anything like this before, but it sounds like it'd be rather fun - especially if a nation of undead would be permissible. :-) I have Ultimate Campaign but not the other two materials.


Sweet idea, I would be down. I played kingmaker and greatly enjoyed the kingdom stuff, unfortunatly we ran the game as the books came out and the ruleing and battle system fell a little flat so this seems great.


I'd also be quite interested in this. Im only vaguely familiar with the rules but anything different like this is too good to pass up!


Build ings costing half price but being especially prone to colapse? Ya i like it :)
Reminds me of the orcs from warhammer :)


Well, I've gotten a few questions answered. First of all, there's definitely interest! Absolutely no question about that any more. I'm by no means closing recruitment, since I haven't even opened recruitment yet, but this does inspire me to actually make this happen!

Which leads to the next point - Clearly most people are familiar with the Ultimate campaign rules, but not either of the addons. That means I either need to scale back to the "core" rules, or actually build the supplement documents. Which means it's time for me to start building them. :)

Here's a preview of what I intend on including from each:

Ultimate Rulership:

  • Holidays are measured by frequency rather than quantity, and cost a random amount of consumption (1d12 BP for weekly parties).
  • High taxes boost your economy check divisor, but adversely affect your economy score.
  • Promotions edicts are replaced by Expansion edicts, which can help you claim hexes faster.
  • There are five kinds of special edict you can issue (Commission magic items or buildings, Endow buildings for fame, Spy on neighbors, have a special festival, or recruit), of which you can do one special per month.
  • You are allowed vacancies with no penalty, so long as you have at least one leader per hex you own.
  • Hex population varies by type, and gets boosts per improvement (which stack with cities)
  • Buildings are limited by the size of the city - Some things can be built anywhere, but others require you to have grown to a certain size first. They also take time to build.
  • Rules for wooden buildings, as previously mentioned.
  • New buildings, including a Colossus, a Crematorium, and lowly warehouses. (And the return of the Bordello)
  • Magical improvements, including having animated objects or mindless undead working in your cities or fields.
  • Rules for unusual settlements, such as underwater and treetop.
  • Modified event rules.
  • Ultimate Battle:

  • Combat is divided into zones (for positioning) and phases (for actions).
  • Manpower restrictions on how much you can recruit.
  • Friendly fire rules.
  • Tactical initiative, with good commanders able to choose tactics based on what the other commanders are doing.
  • Fatigue, post-battle disease, in-battle parleys.
  • More tactics, including the classical pike square.
  • Post-battle rules, for capturing prisoners, executing them, and so on.
  • Armies have to be trained and equipped after being recruited, and costs are affected by size. They also have to be maintained or kept in reserve.
  • Rules for converting almost any race/monster into an army with unique abilities.
  • Rules for terrain, visibility, and weather.
  • A note on the books:

    As my intent is not to just reproduce the books, there is stuff I'm not using, details I'll be simplifying, and things that I'll just keep to myself until needed. I'd like to encourage people to buy them, although I have no stake in them beyond that of a fan. Probably, I'll say that if you have these books and reference an aspect of something I simplified by page number, you can take advantage of it. For example, a Colossus (4 lots) can share the same space as a Lighthouse (1 lot) or an Observatory (1 lot). If I left that out of the summary PDF, but you referenced it by page, you could save yourself a single lot. Nothing major or game breaking, but a minor boon for actually supporting the publisher. If you object to this, let me know and I'll reconsider.

    ---

    So, all that being said, I want to turn to some of the other things I'd like to decide. Does anyone have suggestions for where the kingdoms are coming from all of the sudden? Does it matter? Settlers do just appear at the start of a Civilization game...

    Given the interest, I'd certainly be willing to consider adding more people to my initial 2-5. I may pick an initial few, then add more after a few rounds have passed and we're getting into the swing of things. Starting late shouldn't matter, since by the time you encounter another kingdom, there will have been enough potential for growth to even things out.

    Does anyone have feedback on the tools? Are you willing to play across up to three different websites (here, roll20, and Obsidian Portal)?

    Is anyone interested in actually interacting with each other in-world or quasi-in-world outside of waiting for your kingdoms to find each other? If so, how would you suggest going about that?

    Edit: One more: Running a kingdom is a lot of bookkeeping. I don't have any particularly good tools for it at the moment (The spreadsheet doesn't support the addons, Hero Lab doesn't support the addons, etc.), so there's not going to be much automation. If this campaign falls apart, it will almost certainly be because of the bookkeeping effort involved. So be prepared for a lot of tracking and/or specific formats for things.


    Re: where are these kingdoms coming from of all a sudden?

    There's a book I read a while back called Dragon's Ring and then just the other day I was pointed at a webcomic called Kaerwyn. Reading either is not neccessary, though both good (the comic is fairly short, read through it in an evening).

    Anyway, the concept behind both is that the word was artificially constructed by dragons to serve as a home where they can do as they please without any of the pesky adventurers trying to off them all the time. Tansmarin was specifically constructed by stealing land (and inhabitants) from existing words and jamming them together like a patchwork quilt. Kaerwyn I haven't looked at, but it appears that it's a pocket universe containing a scant three bodies: the sun, the planet, and the moon.

    That kind of basis would make a lot of sense for kingdom founding: the world is new (constructed by..?) and everyone in it was just yanked from their home (well by the start of the game it might be the first or second generation after) and there is no way back, so towns and cities are beginning to form.

    Re: Bookkeeping

    Bobson...have you seen the kinds of notes I have for Mage and D&D? Actually, I know you have. I'll probably be building bookkeeping tools on the fly (and of course, sharing). Expect Excel sheets with no error checking.


    Starting settlers..
    Naval settlers is always fun.. start with a coastline or three, and everyone has a starting position on a beach. This also gives a solid reason for intermittent support instead of solid ties to the patron nations.
    Unclaimed wilderness. This would be closer to Kingmaker proper, with a preexisting wilderness with civilization at the edges. Possibly a recently ended conflict to explain the new interest in the area.

    I think this will depend a lot on the map.. Are the players going to be able to influence the map in their immediate area before play? Are we going to be in the same general biome, or will it be erratic across the realms?

    Related.. how will we determine race of settlers? Will there be costs and benefits depending on what race is picked? Will Ents be an option, or are we sticking to more standard races?
    ...Could an Ent village qualify as a treetop halfling village? ;)


    Lots of monster races so I'm thinking ill be human colonials. Probably chelish, pre thrune abadar splinter faction. A dowager countess' incursion to bring civilization to the locals.


    Both "world ex nihilo" and "foreign shores" are definitely viable. The latter would be something like the Americas in the 1600's - lots of European countries sending out explorers, landing in unknown spots and only later defining where the borders were. Some people could start inland as the "natives".

    I think we'd have too many people for "spread into the wilderness" to work on land. Not enough surface area to spread out in.

    froggalpha wrote:
    Are the players going to be able to influence the map in their immediate area before play? Are we going to be in the same general biome, or will it be erratic across the realms?

    Good question. My plan is to generate a large swath of terrain randomly, including most/all types, then put people down 15-30 hexes apart (less if everyone's on a coast, more if everyone's inland). Starting locations may get BP costs, or be chosen blindly, or randomly assigned. I'll probably let you choose the hex type of your starting city, and separately, a type to guarantee at least 6 of the hexes within a radius 2 (18 hexes) will have (if we don't start on a coastline). Then I'll have BP costs for adding other specific features and/or special resources (if doing those).

    Quote:

    Related.. how will we determine race of settlers? Will there be costs and benefits depending on what race is picked? Will Ents be an option, or are we sticking to more standard races?

    ...Could an Ent village qualify as a treetop halfling village? ;)

    I'm not sure. I definitely like the idea of an undead kingdom, but that implies a much higher power level than one of kobolds, though. I don't want to add too much to the paperwork by making things play differently for each race. I'm leaning towards bonuses to the relevant leadership scores and flavor, and let the rest of the mechanics come from the choices you make. But I might make certain things available for a BP cost.


    Alright my imput :)
    Firstly, I would love to play a goblin race in this game, no matter how under-powered against my neighboring undead. If I can have this one boon, ill be in it to the end :)

    Second, Im all for large amounts of bookkeeping, I actually get a kick out of statistics, data analysis, numbers and crunch, so I will have no problems with that :) (in my twisted mind, more is better)

    I would probably start out as a "native" and Im envisioning it as any goblin horde would start. A small group of goblins, completely uncivilized and un-unified all of a sudden gains a notoriously competent gobo who "forces" the others under his thumb and starts living out his dreams of grandeur, using all the other gobos as essentially slave labor. When he gets offed, his successor happens to be an even greater leader of greenies, and thrus it grows.
    As for others, I am currently in another campaign dealing with lords of creation and them creating the world from scratch. Another idea is that some god blessed the earth, and the otherwise uncivilized natives spontaneously (and globally) started developing at a previously unheard speed.
    Colonial exploration (with a few natives) works as well.
    Dux-Ex-Machina works if nothing else, the goblins started gathering, the elves made a pact with the land and trees, humans came out of their caves, another group washed up on shore, the last remnants of Atlantis, and all happened within the same century, ect.

    As far as the books, whatever you are willing to use (and thrus put up) I will use, as I dont have the books. If this goes for a while (a few months perhaps?) I will look into getting the books, just for funs sake.

    Im ok with doing this across 3 websites if needed. Saying that, this is the forum I check every day, it might take some getting used to, but links in the blurb at the top of the campaign tab should make this a very little issue.

    I would be fine with the different races communicating across the expanses with each other. 2 ideas would be magic, allowing communication at limited amounts (player 1 wants to trade with player 2. #1 says that a magician in #2s land scrys on the first and sees the great riches. #2 then gets to decide if he wants to travel to them and trade, ect). The second would be traders and wanderers. It limits how much and who can communicate, but a few select people exploring the jungles inbetween or traders going from settlement to settlement would allow for "rumors" to spread. Runners is another idea, especially if most everyone came from the sea, and therefore knew about each other before hand.

    I would say just let scrying magic be readily available and have the "receiving" player control what got scryed. (so he can tell others what he wants to communicate)

    Thats what I can think of for now :)
    I am very interested!!


    This sounds awesome, I would love to create a Kaer Maga style civilization, just a chaotic mix of cultures, species, and peoples and so that it can actually work as a kingdom, all under the iron rule of a warlord and his 'trusted' council (the Patrician/Ankh Morpork comes to mind as another example.)

    I actually recently joined a Lords of Creation game on another forum and was going to suggest a similar sort of idea as Goblin Horde, that we as the players are gods, and we have created/chosen our people and (going back to Discworld) are using them as our pawns in a great game of the gods by dropping them on a pristine new world as our playing board. Would solve the communication issue too by letting the players share their civilizations 'prayers' and make trades by divine intervention.

    As to earlier questions, I have UC but not any of the others. I've never used Obsidian Portal and have limited experience with roll20, but if people are willing to give pointers or point me to a good guide I should be okay. as to paperwork, I have something of a love-hate with bookkeeping. I like playing with systems but am kind of... bad at it. Still, willing to give it a go.


    For the undead nation, I was thinking something like Geb. I haven't delved to deeply into UC yet, but maybe they'd require less Food but have penalties when dealing with other nations. I can also see them having higher Unrest/needing more police to keep the Human slaves in line.


    I think Rumor would be the best way to communicate at first, with messengers and scrying following later.
    Each player generates rumors about their kingdom, and the GM distributes, or they get stuck on an associated page


    Idly I was thinking sort of Kaer Maga like civ--that is, at least two intelligent species working side by side. My plan was to have humans and a monstrous race.


    Draco18s wrote:
    Idly I was thinking sort of Kaer Maga like civ--that is, at least two intelligent species working side by side. My plan was to have humans and a monstrous race.

    Hmm, perhaps we could team up? It would make the kaer maga style concept a bit simpler, both to run and adjudicate. I'd love to play the monstrous race (thinking some sort of lesser troll, or maybe one of the darker/evil fey races (quicklings are awesome but plenty of others out there)). Not sure if having two races combining BP and such would be unbalanced/unfair to the others though...


    Count me in, please!

    I haven't looked at Ultimate Battle; I have looked at Ultimate Rulership. I was interested in the section about Developing Settlements. I also read the section on Founding a Kingdom.

    I can post a turn per week - no problem. I have not used roll20; if it is similar to MapTools, then no problem there either.

    I have several ideas for "themed" settlements. If this is "roleplay-lite", they should work well.

    This is actually my first time looking at Paizo's Recruitment Forum, so I lucked up finding this. Looks like I will have to monitor this forum regularly for when you actually start recruiting. I can hardly wait!


    PhillyG wrote:


    This is actually my first time looking at Paizo's Recruitment Forum, so I lucked up finding this. Looks like I will have to monitor this forum regularly for when you actually start recruiting. I can hardly wait!

    That's kindof what happened to me, except it was PvP arena games that sucked me in. Now I'm in four active or about-to-start games (two PFS PbP), was in a large number of games that ran for a while and stopped, and I'm preparing to start running my first one. :)

    --------

    As far as progressing this goes, I'm hoping to have the house rules file assembled by the end of the weekend (incorporating Ultimate Campaign, most optional rules from it, the UR/UB additions, and my own tweaks and extras), at which point I'll start official recruitment. No promises, but that's my goal. (It's possible it'll just be the kingdom rules, not yet the mass combat ones - that may need to wait for the following weekend.)
    I should also hopefully have a sample map, generated the same way I'll generate the actual map. My plan is to have one huge master map for me, and everyone else gets to see just the portion of it they've explored, possibly with each player map having a different coordinate system just to confuse things. ;)

    As for teaming up - I'm good with that, although you'll have to decide if you're running as two separate kingdoms that are allied and/or vassals (and thus still in competition for good locations and such, have separate BP pools, etc.) or both running a single kingdom (in which case it's still just a single kingdom). You can't run two separate kingdoms out of the same capital city, though.

    Ultimate Rulership does specifically say that an underwater city can share a hex with another city - usually a barge city (lashed together boats) or a causeway one (think Venice). Likewise, a cavern city is located in the cavern hex below a standard hex (if I generate any of those), but you'd be very limited in how you could expand. I'd be willing to allow either of those to be split between two kingdoms (and thus the one way to peacefully share a hex, because it's really two hexes).
    If neither of those apply, I have no objections to starting two people in adjacent hexes. I think the growth restrictions will balance out the trade advantages, and if you ever do have cause to go to war...


    Still working on the rules document, but figured I'd share a preview.

    I've decided to go with the "World ex nihilo" scenario, since several people suggested it in various forms.

    This is a few excerpts from the current document, and are subject to change before the final form. I would really appreciate any feedback or suggestions.

    Background wrote:


    Players in this game represent powerful Beings - gods, ancient dragons, archmages, animate abstract concepts, and so on. For their own inscrutable purposes, they have created an entirely new world as some kind of proving ground or game board, populated it with groups of mortals, and agreed to limit their direct involvement. Their mortals must found a city, explore their new home, and generally grow and expand, all under the guidance of their founding Being.
    Turn Sequence & Submitting actions wrote:


    As this is a kingdom-building game, each round represents one month of in-game time, and consists of each kingdom taking a single turn. All turns are considered to be happening simultaneously.
    There are four phases to a kingdom turn - Upkeep, Edicts, Income, and Events. Turns should be submitted spelling out what is happening in the kingdom in the first three phases, and then I may generate an event for the kingdom to deal with. After resolving that (if an event even occurs), you should make a generalized summary of the month on the gameplay thread. You may include as much detail as you want, but the very minimum would be the founding of any new cities, changes in government type, and (if you had one) the event and how is resolved.

    Proxies are the mortals you can use as leaders in your kingdom.

    Proxies wrote:

    Proxies are the only mortals you are permitted to influence directly. They represent members of your chosen people who have been touched by your power in some way (divine favor, granted access to an artifact, transmuted by arcane magic, etc). There are certain limits on Proxies which all Beings have agreed to.


    • A Being may choose any member of their people to become a Proxy, and may enhance them within certain limits. This is the only way in which a Being may affect a non-Proxy, but it may be as public or private as the Being prefers.
    • A Being may only maintain up to 15 Proxies at any given time.
    • A Being may communicate directly with their Proxies, but only in such a way that no non-Proxies may overhear. (Observe, yes. Overhear, no)
    • Proxies may be made unaging, but may not be made immortal. In other words, they may be killed, but will not die from old age.
    • Proxies are forbidden from causing harm to another Proxy of the same Being.
    • A Being may destroy a Proxy at any time. Again, this may be as public or private as the Being prefers. However, it is impossible to entirely hide the fact that the Proxy was destroyed in this way. This generates +1 unrest

    In game terms, whenever you create a Proxy, you have 3 points to spend enhancing them from their base.


    • All Proxies begin with the base stats of their race (i.e. 10 before racial modifiers).
    • One stat is randomly lowered by 2, one stat is randomly raised by 2.
    • -- Determine this by rolling a d6 twice (1 = Str, 2 = Dex, 3 = Con, 4 = Int, 5 = Wis, 6 = Cha)
    • -- If the same stat is picked for both, you may choose to have the bonus cancel the penalty, or to reroll the die for the bonus.
    • -- Races with a floating +2 (such as humans) roll twice for the bonus and apply both. This may stack.
    • From this base, you may spend points as follows:
    • -- 1 point to provide a +2 to any stat (this can not stack)
    • -- 2 points to grant the Proxy the Leadership feat
    • -- 3 points to provide a +4 to any stat (this can not stack with the 1 point bonus)
    • Assuming you are not yet at your Proxy limit, you may lower your Proxy limit by one to gain an additional point to spend on this Proxy. You may not raise your Proxy limit again until this enhanced Proxy dies.


    Peanuts wrote:
    Draco18s wrote:
    Idly I was thinking sort of Kaer Maga like civ--that is, at least two intelligent species working side by side. My plan was to have humans and a monstrous race.
    Hmm, perhaps we could team up? It would make the kaer maga style concept a bit simpler, both to run and adjudicate.

    While interesting, I have specific ideas. I'm just not posting what they are. Bobson became aware earlier this afternoon.

    While he said that he hasn't yet worked out how such kingdoms will work, he wants it to be possible.


    Looks good so far, so if i got this right, a goblin proxy would have
    str 8
    Dex 14
    Con 10
    Int 10
    Wis 10
    Cha 8
    And then a random +2, -2 to the stats?
    K, sounds good :)
    Btw, is there any benifit/drawback to having short lived proxys and having them constantly die and get replaced (goblins are not known for their longivity ;D)


    Seems fine thus far. I assume you generate the proxies before you place them in the leadership positions.

    Whats the bonus someone gets from the leadership feat? The ruler entry says "If you have the Leadership feat, the bonus from the feat applies to all kingdom attributes you affect (one, two, or three attributes, depending on the kingdom's Size)." Does that refer to the "Leader's Reputation" modifier and whatnot?

    I was also thinking, just like the actual civilization games, the first turns there really isnt going to be a lot to do. Maybe we can find a way to do multiple turns at once or have a higher minimum posting than 1/week at first when towns are really small and easy to keep track of.


    Gobo Horde wrote:

    Looks good so far, so if i got this right, a goblin proxy would have

    str 8
    Dex 14
    Con 10
    Int 10
    Wis 10
    Cha 8
    And then a random +2, -2 to the stats?
    K, sounds good :)

    Yep, that looks right. I think it's easier to apply the -2 first, since you can reroll the +2 if they match, but as long as it works out the same in the end, it's all good, and +2/-2 is definitely more natural. Don't forget the points you can apply, too!

    It should be impossible to generate a worse-than-average Proxy with this system, although it takes a bit of luck to get a really good one.

    Quote:
    Btw, is there any benifit/drawback to having short lived proxys and having them constantly die and get replaced (goblins are not known for their longivity ;D)

    The idea is more-or-less that you're stuck with the ones you get until you kill them or an event does. I'm toying with the idea of letting them die from old age, but even goblins might not reach that point - depends how fast we move and how long we go. At one turn a week (the slowest I'll go), that's still three RL months to play out a year. At 3 turns a week, which is likely the fastest pace than I can keep up, we can fit in 12 years per RL year, which might be enough for them to die of old age.

    Edit to respond to Chris, too:

    Chris O'Reilly wrote:
    Seems fine thus far. I assume you generate the proxies before you place them in the leadership positions.

    Yep. You can even generate them before you need them - your limit is 15, and there's only 11 "regular" leadership positions.

    Quote:
    Whats the bonus someone gets from the leadership feat? The ruler entry says "If you have the Leadership feat, the bonus from the feat applies to all kingdom attributes you affect (one, two, or three attributes, depending on the kingdom's Size)." Does that refer to the "Leader's Reputation" modifier and whatnot?

    No, it's just a flat +1 to everything you do to run a kingdom just for having the feat (for all leadership positions, not just the Ruler). There's also extra benefits to having it on your General.

    Quote:
    I was also thinking, just like the actual civilization games, the first turns there really isnt going to be a lot to do. Maybe we can find a way to do multiple turns at once or have a higher minimum posting than 1/week at first when towns are really small and easy to keep track of.

    Good point. People in PbP games do seem to tend to start off posting fast, then slow down as time goes on, so this might adjust itself, but I'll certainly start thinking of ways to accelerate the first few turns.


    Well, I'm not done with the the kingdom rule document yet - it's up to 14 pages, and I've still got about a quarter of it left to do (not counting the list of buildings). I also haven't started including the mass combat rules yet. It's definitely a bigger project than I was anticipating.

    That said, here's another preview. As always, comments and feedback are appreciated.

    Founding your Kingdom wrote:


    As a Being forming a new kingdom, you have a mere 100 points to spend to prepare your followers for their role in the game. There are several ways these points may be spent, and anything leftover is transformed one-for-one into BP already present in your kingdom’s Treasury.

    Step 1 - Choose Race

    • Core book - 0 points
    • ARG’s Featured or Uncommon races - 10 points (no drow nobles)
    • Custom built races are permissible with approval of the race, and have the following costs:
    • -- Standard (1-10 RP) - 15 points
    • -- Advanced (11-20 RP) - 30 points
    • -- Monstrous (20-30 RP) - 50 points
    • You may optionally include a second race in your kingdom.
    • -- This costs 5 points, plus their racial cost.
    • -- When you create a Proxy, you may choose the race of your new Proxy.
    • -- The Ruler must always be from your primary race.
    • -- When forming armies, manpower in your kingdom is divided 75%/25% between the primary and secondary race.


    Bobson wrote:
    Well, I'm not done with the the kingdom rule document yet - it's up to 14 pages, and I've still got about a quarter of it left to do (not counting the list of buildings).

    Slightly too late for me to edit the last post, but just to reassure people: It's 14 pages, but it's not very dense. For example, the Upkeep phase, which is almost the same as core, is half a page long. The Proxies rules quoted above are a whole page themselves.


    Still thinking about a Geb-like Undead nation. To make things easier, I could play with Dhampir proxies, right?

    STR 10
    DEX 12
    CON 8
    INT 10
    WIS 10
    CHA 12

    Then the random +2/-2 and whatnot. Would you be opposed to me using variant heritages to add even more variety?


    Draco18s wrote:
    Peanuts wrote:
    Draco18s wrote:
    Idly I was thinking sort of Kaer Maga like civ--that is, at least two intelligent species working side by side. My plan was to have humans and a monstrous race.
    Hmm, perhaps we could team up? It would make the kaer maga style concept a bit simpler, both to run and adjudicate.

    While interesting, I have specific ideas. I'm just not posting what they are. Bobson became aware earlier this afternoon.

    While he said that he hasn't yet worked out how such kingdoms will work, he wants it to be possible.

    No worries, just figured I'd offer if it was going to be simpler :)

    Bobson wrote:

    Well, I'm not done with the the kingdom rule document yet - it's up to 14 pages, and I've still got about a quarter of it left to do (not counting the list of buildings). I also haven't started including the mass combat rules yet. It's definitely a bigger project than I was anticipating.

    That said, here's another preview. As always, comments and feedback are appreciated.

    Founding your Kingdom wrote:
    ***ommited***

    So maximum of two races then or could you keep going spending 5+points for additional races? Just looking for the boundaries here, I imagine points would start to run short after not too long, especially for monstrous ones :)


    Peanuts wrote:
    So maximum of two races then or could you keep going spending 5+points for additional races? Just looking for the boundaries here, I imagine points would start to run short after not too long, especially for monstrous ones :)

    Good question. My inclination is to limit it to two, but I could be convinced to bump it up... possibly with the extra cost going up, depending on how much benefit there is.

    I should also come up with some variation for a "we take everyone" civilization.


    I was only wanting to go for 3, thinking Orcs, Strix and a custom Advanced race that's something of a hybrid Ogre/Troll (Large, omnivorous, rather nasty, a bit dim, without the awesome regeneration unfortunately). Would be ~60 points (30 +(5+10) +(5+10))

    The 'we take everyone' civilization does make somewhat less sense with the world ex nihilo concept unfortunately. I'm thinking my civilization is the result of the god blowing his nose (or some other bodily function, self-disemboweling perhaps :p) tying the three races into Humorism (Orcs Choleric, Strix Melancholic and Trogs Sanguine).

    Trogs:
    Racial Traits Race Point Cost
    Type Humanoid (giant) 0
    Size Large 7
    Base Speed Normal 0
    Ability Score Modifiers
    Specialized (+2 Str, +2 Con, –2 Wis) 1
    Languages Xenophobic (Giant) 0

    Advanced Constitution (+2) 4
    Defensive Healthy 2
    Offense Bite x2 2
    Offense Reach 1
    Senses Carrion Sense 1
    Senses Darkvision 60 ft. 2
    Total 20
    Final Ability Score Modifiers: +4 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Wis
    Trogs are physically imposing with great strength and resilience, but are slow and have underdeveloped senses.


    I've got my custom race built at this point. Still some rough edges to sand off, but it's been approved mechanically.

    Various discussions about helper tools were discussed, Bobson and I concluded with that we're going to have to do several turns with little more than paper notes (i.e. no tools) to get a handle on how the rules work before we start figuring out what should be automated and how.

    This is going to be interesting.


    Haha that had me thinking of an army of Clap Traps (think borderlands) running around XD
    still, ill stick with goblins :)
    So thats 10 RC and 90 BP right?
    As always, waiting for the doc :)


    Probably for the best, I think everyone else would be forced to ally to remove the clearly superior threat of the claptraps and wipe them off the plane :p


    So, I haven't made progress on the rules yet tonight, but I have been playing with map software. Here's an example map I generated:

    Example map

    Thoughts? Are the groupings of terrain too big? Are the proportions wildly off? How much expansion do people want to have before they start encountering each other? Before they start running out of space? I can generate more of these maps and piece them together, or generate smaller ones.

    The usual kingdom break points will be in effect, and I assume everyone would like to get up at least to the 51+ range, which is between three and four hexes away from your capital (assuming you explore out evenly). Personally, I suspect people would prefer the 101-200 range before any serious conflicts emerge. Maybe 125 or so as an "decent sized" kingdom, with the 201+ breakpoint being the "huge juggernaut"? Am I wildly off base?

    Radii:

    0 -> 1 (Capital only) - Size 1-10
    1 -> 1+6= 7
    2 -> 1+6+12= 19 - Size 11-25
    3 -> 1+6+12+18= 37 - Size 26-50
    4 -> 1+6+12+18+24= 61 - Size 51-100
    5 -> 1+6+12+18+24+30= 91
    6 -> 1+6+12+18+24+30+36= 127 - Size 101-200
    7 -> 1+6+12+18+24+30+36+42= 169
    8 -> 1+6+12+18+24+30+36+42+48= 217 - Size 201+


    That map's rather awesome. :-) I have no complaints.


    And one more map-related snippet tonight before I go pass out:

    Quote:


    Step 3 - Pay for beneficial terrain
    [list]
  • By default, everyone will start their capital on a plains hex adjacent to at least two other plains hexes, and there will be at least four hexes of terrain suitable for building Mines, Quarries, or Sawmills within two hexes of their capital.
  • This default setup can be modified by spending points.
  • -- Choosing a different terrain for your capital costs 5 points.
  • -- Choosing a specific type of terrain to comprise the at-least-four-hexes costs 5 points.
  • -- Doubling the amount of terrain of that type, or purchasing four hexes of a different type of your choice costs 10 points.
  • -- Buying the guarantee of a water hex in radius 2 costs 10.
  • Please note that these are simply the minimum guaranteed values. You may start on a single plains hex in the midst of a vast forest, or a vast plain with exactly four forests scattered around. Paying for another 4 guaranteed hexes in the midst of the forest just wastes your points - you already have at least eight forests - but you have no way to know that in advance.
  • As always, comments and feedback are appreciated. Are the costs reasonable? Is there actually any advantage to paying? Should I guarantee water?

    I also need to add special hexes (Lair, Landmark, random building, ruins, resources, rivers) - should they be guaranteed? In the same pool as water? No control?

    ----

    And, while I'm at it - Do I ask too many questions? :)


    By Radius 5 I'd say we should definitely be aware of our neighbors at that point and if we're putting the 'average' rating at a radius of 6 then putting initial settlements about 13 +/- 3 hexes (depending on how crowded we want to make things) apart seems fair to me.

    Map looks cool if a bit chaotic, given the ex nihilo nature that fits :) The groupings of terrain type seems fair, they seem to be predominantly in horizontal bands, I don't know if that's intentional or not. I'd probably want to start my settlement somewhere along or at least near the border of two to three terrains so you get some different types to play with (not to mention mountainous and hilly terrain is super expensive to build). As far as size that depends on how many people you actually choose, 5-6 players this seems fair, more maybe enlarge it a bit, less maybe crop it.

    Ahh heh, I see you already addressed settlement placement now I scroll down. Well if I'm allowed to have my three races I probably would just roll the dice what with having invested so many points into the races :)

    My suggestion would just be to allow the player to specify what sort of terrain they think fits their civilization and take that into account as you think best. Having the option to specify things about your starting location is nice but the prices may be a little high considering the minimal effect of terrain (admittedly it I haven't read much of the rules since I tried to run kingmaker a year or two ago so I'm not sure if that's still the case). Maybe being able to pay to make your starting hex a specific type (and an associated bonus eg Economy bonus for starting next to water, defense bonus for starting in hills/mountains, stability bonus from having rich farmland nearby (plains)) might be more attractive.

    Having some special hexes guaranteed would be good, they help to add flavour and depth (and potentially mechanical benefits) to the whole thing.

    For questions, Heh, maybe but I'm the same :)


    Modifying the capital hex is definitely a reasonable cost.
    I think paying for a water hex nearby costs too much, unless I'm missing something.
    I feel like you should be able to buy a beneficial special hex within radius 2, but again, no guarantee they wouldn't be there anyway. The problem there is that they should probably be worth different amounts.

    No such thing as too many questions :P


    By water, do you mean a river running along the border of the capital, a seacoast adjacent to the capital, a one-square lake, or players choice? It makes a difference. Come to think of it, I don't recall seeing any rivers on your example map. It is all one continent with lakes of different sizes. Is that what we should expect?

    Are you using CIvilization to create the map? I have not used its mapmaker, but i believe it can be used to generate different kinds of worlds with various levels of resources.

    FreeCol usea a New World / Old World paradigm with the Old World off map.


    Really interested in playing! I love these types of games! Count me in if there is room!

    Peanuts wrote:

    Maybe being able to pay to make your starting hex a specific type (and an associated bonus eg Economy bonus for starting next to water, defense bonus for starting in hills/mountains, stability bonus from having rich farmland nearby (plains)) might be more attractive.

    Having some special hexes guaranteed would be good, they help to add flavor and depth (and potentially mechanical benefits) to the whole thing.

    I couldn't agree more. Mountains and deserts represent territory that currently don't provide any real benefit to conquer and settle on. There is, currently, no real value to either terrain type, and I for one would love to find a reason to explore and expand in those areas. Perhaps by adding a mechanical, technological, magical, offensive, or defensive advantage to these terrains it may prove lucrative.

    It's my humble recommendation to increase the percentage chance of ruins, relics, treasure, npc allies/antagonists, events, quest chains(go to tile X, Y, and Z to gain this reward), monsters/bandits, and magical/technological marvels in these hexes more than others. I, for one, would send out scouts to each of these areas to potentially claim for the future of my race's kingdom.

    Can't wait till this gets rolling!


    introneurotic wrote:

    I couldn't agree more. Mountains and deserts represent territory that currently don't provide any real benefit to conquer and settle on. There is, currently, no real value to either terrain type, and I for one would love to find a reason to explore and expand in those areas. Perhaps by adding a mechanical, technological, magical, offensive, or defensive advantage to these terrains it may prove lucrative.

    It's my humble recommendation to increase the percentage chance of ruins, relics, treasure, npc allies/antagonists, events, quest chains(go to tile X, Y, and Z to gain this reward), monsters/bandits, and magical/technological marvels in these hexes more than others. I, for one, would send out scouts to each of these areas to potentially claim for the future of my race's kingdom.

    Not a bad notion, I like the idea of the percentage of "special" areas increasing as the inherent value of the tile decreases. Maybe not to the point that mountain ranges are pinatas, but at least so that you aren't out of luck entirely if you get stuck with a desert next to your capital.


    I'm liking it. I agree with the larger map at first so we're less likely to run into each other sentiments. Personally, rather than rebalance the terrain types I would have a larger guarantee of "good" land around each capital. Civ games always seemed pretty heavily influenced by your start position so I guess thats a love it or hate it feature. Im interested to see all the other point costs for buying things at start (resources) so I can see what I have to spend on a race. Im thinking an abeil/formian kinda thing.

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