Can you provide the specific situation you are referring to?
The details as to what class and situation probably have the answer to your question.
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I can only link to d20pfsrd, since it is not in the general PRD:
for example, Fox Shape. It is not a matter of faulty entry on the website; it actually stands that way in the book as well.The operative phrase initiating my query being, any time she would gain a feat. 'Any' is an absolute word, and there is no exception and/or qualifying phrase included.
(edit: added last sentence)
I agree that "Special" line is very odd. If it only means that a kitsune qualifies for the feat, it's unnecessary, while if it means she can ignore the prerequisites, the prerequisites as written are pointless. I might suggest one or both of:
- A kitsune can select the feat even if she doesn't meet the other prerequisites, but doesn't benefit from it until she qualifies fully, and/or
- A kitsune can choose this feat for any ability that grants a choice of bonus feats, adding it to the options available (but not replacing an ability that grants a specific other feat).
Aspect of the Beast has a special that allows creatures that have contracted Lycanthropy to take it without meeting the prerequisites as well as Natural Weapon Combat Style Rangers to take without meeting the prerequisites. That, unfortunately, is the only feat I remember with a special like that.
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Perhaps we're overthinking this specific/general idea, and I don't think it's redundant.
Perhaps it is saying that a 4th level Kitsune Fighter could take this in place of her bonus Fighter feat for that level?
EDIT: the other Kitsune feats all say this, too. It makes me think that at 3rd, 6th, and 10th level, if a Kitsune would be able to gain a feat, from whatever source, she may instead opt to take a Kitsune feat. It's the only explanation I can come up with, at least.
I can only link to d20pfsrd, since it is not in the general PRD:
for example, Fox Shape. It is not a matter of faulty entry on the website; it actually stands that way in the book as well.The operative phrase initiating my query being, any time she would gain a feat. 'Any' is an absolute word, and there is no exception and/or qualifying phrase included.
(edit: added last sentence)
I agree that "Special" line is very odd. If it only means that a kitsune qualifies for the feat, it's unnecessary, while if it means she can ignore the prerequisites, the prerequisites as written are pointless. I might suggest one or both of:
- A kitsune can select the feat even if she doesn't meet the other prerequisites, but doesn't benefit from it until she qualifies fully, and/or
- A kitsune can choose this feat for any ability that grants a choice of bonus feats, adding it to the options available (but not replacing an ability that grants a specific other feat).
The "Special" line is odd, primarily because it doesn't exist as a "Special" line in the actual book. For some reason D20PFSRD likes to include section headers stating things to the effect of "these feats may be taken by <N> characters" as if each individual feat had that line as a "Special".
For this particular book, the line is included as the header for a section called "Bonus Kitsune Feats", and is as such presumably meant more as reminder text than anything else. It shouldn't be taken to mean there's anything special about those feats in terms of how a kitsune can qualify for them.
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I can only link to d20pfsrd, since it is not in the general PRD:
for example, Fox Shape. It is not a matter of faulty entry on the website; it actually stands that way in the book as well.
Eh. Sort of. Not really at all. In the published sourcebook Fox Shape has no "Special" entry. "A kitsune may select from the following feats any time she would gain a feat" is the introductory paragraph to "Bonus Kitsune Feats" and is standard for almost any list of feats.
So most of this topic is third party invention.
I am also struggling to find a category of "racial feats" for Pathfinder and neither the Dragon Empires Primer nor, to be fair, d20PFSRD.com categorise this as anything but a general feat that has a race prerequisite.
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And just for general clarification- for those instances when it is unclear, which takes priority- prerequisite or 'special'?
It seems over-complicated for a "Special" line to modify the "Prerequisites" line of its own feat. Why wouldn't the designer put the information into "Prerequisites"? Without a specific example, I'd favour a reading that applies the "Special" mechanic to other rules and not to contradict the remaining wording of the feat itself, so they shouldn't interact. I suppose that means, in a clear conflict, the "Prerequisites" line should prevail.
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This is a prime example of the reason everyone should avoid d20pfsrd.
Avoiding the most useful, comprehensive, easily searchable, nearly-perfect and highly reliable repository of Pathfinder rules? Yes. Definitely.
One tiny error per several hundred entries does not invalidate the overwhelmingly awesome utility of d20pfsrd. Just because you shouldn't use it as your only resource doesn't mean it's not insanely useful.
This is a prime example of the reason everyone should avoid d20pfsrd.Avoiding the most useful, comprehensive, easily searchable, nearly-perfect and highly reliable repository of Pathfinder rules? Yes. Definitely.
One tiny error per several hundred entries does not invalidate the overwhelmingly awesome utility of d20pfsrd. Just because you shouldn't use it as your only resource doesn't mean it's not insanely useful.
Bold for emphasis. This is a prime example of a reason everyone should sanity check weird things on d20pfsrd, not a reason to avoid it entirely. Of course, it isn't always possible (if the feat isn't on the official PRD and you don't have access to the printed/PDF form), but in that case someone who does will clarify it (as happened here).
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I think the special line in this case is referencing the fact that a fighter, monk, wizard, or magus can select this as one of their bonus feats, as well as any class selecting it as one of their normal odd level feats.
That would be the interpretation, if you didn't read the DEP or if you choose to insert meanings into the words.
A kitsune may select from the following feats any time she would gain a feat.
You just added "in place of a choice of feats" when these are general feats that can be taken every odd level.
One tiny error per several hundred entries does not invalidate
True, but this isn't the only and isn't the smallest. I've noticed too many to count over the years and I stopped using them years ago.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Saying they can choose it any time they gain a feat does not mean they can ignore the pre-requisites.
I think the special line in this case is referencing the fact that a fighter, monk, wizard, or magus can select this as one of their bonus feats.
I didn't intend to discuss pre-reqs. I agree with you.
I intended to reject this second line about a Fighter/Monk/Wizard/Magus taking these Kitsune feats in place of Combat/Monk/Metamagic/etc feats as part of their class.
Eh. Sort of. Not really at all. In the published sourcebook Fox Shape has no "Special" entry. "A kitsune may select from the following feats any time she would gain a feat" is the introductory paragraph to "Bonus Kitsune Feats" and is standard for almost any list of feats.
So most of this topic is third party invention.
I am also struggling to find a category of "racial feats" for Pathfinder and neither the Dragon Empires Primer nor, to be fair, d20PFSRD.com categorise this as anything but a general feat that has a race prerequisite.
Upon second reading (and no longer relying upon the discussion thread under the Dragon Empires Primer or d20pfsrd), I see that you are (all of you) indeed correct. Yet the question remains- why even bother putting this at the head of that sidebar section?
And just for general clarification- for those instances when it is unclear, which takes priority- prerequisite or 'special'?
So it seems that this "Special" should be disregarded as it is not in the original text of the feat. The introductory paragraph is the standard introduction to lists of feats of this sort and should have been disregarded by the d20pfsrd folks unless the feat itself failed to mention the race, in which case a sidebar saying that this feat is commonly associated with kitsune would have been useful. In this case, however, the racial connection is quite obvious.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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If not, then what does that line mean?
You mean the special line? Or the intro paragraph to these feats?
The special line doesn't exist, so it doesn't mean anything.
The intro paragraph just says you can take these feats. It is one sentence:
A kitsune may select from the following feats any time she would gain a feat.
Without that sentence, it would just be a data dump of 3 feats. It would not look nice in the book. Don't read more into the existence of this sentence than is there. Don't add "in place of Fighter feats for example" to it.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Oh ok. I didn't see the post where it was determined that the "special" line didn't exist.
Which is why I don't like that site, as this isn't the first problem they have had. I'd say they have had more problems I've found than I can count on fingers. It is why I don't like 3rd party sites.