I don't know if my question should go here or on Lone Wolf/Hero Lab forum so I'm going to post to both.
I have a player who created a 6th level Summoner with Rime Spell feat and chose the Icicle Dagger spell. He created two Favorite Metamagic Spells: "Icicle Dagger, Rime" and "Snowball, Rime." There is a validation alert for the "Icicle Dagger, Rime" that says, "Spell must deal Cold damage." When I delete the "Icicle Dagger, Rime" from the Favorite Metamagic Spells the alert goes away. I told my player that he needs to look at it and adjust his character. He argues that Hero Lab doesn't recognize that the Icicle Dagger spell does indeed cause "cold damage" for terms of the Rime Spell feat. I don't think the Icicle Dagger spell can be used as a Rime Spell because the Icicle Dagger spell not only deals 1 point of cold damage but it also deals normal dagger damage. I told him I would check into it. So what do all of you think? Is Hero Lab broken or am I right that Icicle Dagger spell can't be used as a Rime spell because it also does normal damage?
Thanks.
Ruhar
P.S. Please no discussion about GMs having final ruling. I want to be fair and check with the Paizo & Lone Wolf community.
No clue about the Hero Lab details, but seems like it'd be easy for the program to miss a detail here or there.
Rules-wise the combo he made is legit. Rime spell only requires that cold damage be done. The amount is irrelevant.
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Well, let's look at the text...
Benefit: The frost of your cold spell clings to the target, impeding it for a short time. A rime spell causes creatures that takes cold damage from the spell to become entangled for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell.
Emphasis mine. I would say that it is a question as to whether or not the damage comes "from the spell" or "from the item that was created by the spell". Personally, I wouldn't allow it because it is a slippery slope(think about a Dazing Icicle Dagger).
Yeah thats true..
This extends to dazing metamagic. perhaps maximizing?
Additionally with the shadwo weapon and the shadow metamagics.granted.. I would love a rime dazing dagger or similar shadow weapon.
I agree, it sounds awesome, but I don't think it is intended to work that way.
I agree, it sounds awesome, but I don't think it is intended to work that way.Yeah thats true..
This extends to dazing metamagic. perhaps maximizing?
Additionally with the shadwo weapon and the shadow metamagics.granted.. I would love a rime dazing dagger or similar shadow weapon.
Would you allow metamagic on a druid's flame sword? What about spiritual weapon? What about a flaming sphere? They're persistent magical effects.
An icicle dagger is no different, imo. It's not like the most effective thing you could be doing with your spells anyway.
I agree, it sounds awesome, but I don't think it is intended to work that way.Yeah thats true..
This extends to dazing metamagic. perhaps maximizing?
Additionally with the shadwo weapon and the shadow metamagics.granted.. I would love a rime dazing dagger or similar shadow weapon.
Would you allow metamagic on a druid's flame sword? What about spiritual weapon? What about a flaming sphere? They're persistent magical effects.
An icicle dagger is no different, imo. It's not like the most effective thing you could be doing with your spells anyway.
Metamagic at all? Of course, you can use Extend Spell, but not Burning Spell or Maximize Spell.
It should work. It would be doing the same thing if he was using frostbite, and that is a far more useful spell than icicle Dagger.
The implications here are far different. Frostbite is a direct damage spell, whereas Icicle Dagger and Flameblade are conjured objects.
Would you allow a Bouncing Icicle Dagger that whenever it missed it could hit the ally next to it? If the designers wanted that to be a thing, don't you they would have put a "bouncing" enchantment for weapons in the game? Think about metamagic for Summoning spells, if you Maximize a Summon Monster spell, do you cap out all of the damage dice from all of the summoned monsters attacks? Or do you simply summon the maximum number of creatures?
Lastly, whatever creature is taking damage from the +1 Frost Dagger that is conjured by the spell Icicle Dagger is not taking damage from the spell. I would argue that the Rime requires that the creature take damage from the spell directly.
the icicle dagger spell does not deal damage to any target... in fact, it does not even have a target:
EFFECT
Range 0 ft.
Effect one icicle
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
see how there's no spell resistance applicable? that's because the spell creates a dagger, nothing else. just because you can use said dagger to inflict damage doesn't mean you could use it to inflict rime or dazing. flame blade is a little trickier to adjudicate- it also has no target, but given that it is an ongoing evocation (rather than a summoning[creation] spell) and does allow spell resistance, i'd be inclined to think you probably could apply dazing to it (or elemental[cold] and rime); flaming sphere i'd rule the same way on, for the same reason...
after reading the "effect" line of each of these three spells, icicle dagger does look a little bit better. still, though, the significant difference is that one is a creation effect (it magically makes something you can use) and the others are ongoing evocations (manifestations of magic), that's why one doesn't allow spell resistance and the others do (and that's why i think that one doesn't allow those metamagics but the others do).
I agree, it sounds awesome, but I don't think it is intended to work that way.Yeah thats true..
This extends to dazing metamagic. perhaps maximizing?
Additionally with the shadwo weapon and the shadow metamagics.granted.. I would love a rime dazing dagger or similar shadow weapon.
Would you allow metamagic on a druid's flame sword? What about spiritual weapon? What about a flaming sphere? They're persistent magical effects.
An icicle dagger is no different, imo. It's not like the most effective thing you could be doing with your spells anyway.
Metamagic at all? Of course, you can use Extend Spell, but not Burning Spell or Maximize Spell.
It should work. It would be doing the same thing if he was using frostbite, and that is a far more useful spell than icicle Dagger.The implications here are far different. Frostbite is a direct damage spell, whereas Icicle Dagger and Flameblade are conjured objects.
Would you allow a Bouncing Icicle Dagger that whenever it missed it could hit the ally next to it? If the designers wanted that to be a thing, don't you they would have put a "bouncing" enchantment for weapons in the game? Think about metamagic for Summoning spells, if you Maximize a Summon Monster spell, do you cap out all of the damage dice from all of the summoned monsters attacks? Or do you simply summon the maximum number of creatures?
Lastly, whatever creature is taking damage from the +1 Frost Dagger that is conjured by the spell Icicle Dagger is not taking damage from the spell. I would argue that the Rime requires that the creature take damage from the spell directly.
Well a bouncing spell wouldn't work because the icicle dagger isn't a single target spell which bouncing spell requires.
The Rime spell specifically calls out working for spells with the frost descriptor doing damage to a target. The conjured dagger is part of the spell. By your ruling you wouldn't allow empowered/maximized cloudkills or anything which alters spell damage that isn't a direct damage spell. That seems a bit narrow minded.
Either way, your houserules are your houserules.
Just a note. Conjuration spells often dont have the spell resistamce. At least none of the attack interaction ones I can think of. One reason its my illusionists backup.
Icicle definitely makes a dagger but its not a normal one as later it melts and reforms I your hand. So I think the main point someone may argue would he if cold damage from it is a spell effect.
I havejt a clue. I would guess no.
Also on summon I guess it would maximize...? Doesnt it say it gets max of rolled dice? Does it specify damage? Im unable to look up
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.
Level Increase: +3 (a maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.)
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result.
Sorry, my example was poorly worded. I was commenting that the "All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized." aspect of Maximize Spell could modify the "1d4+1" aspect of Summon Monster spells.
Well a bouncing spell wouldn't work because the icicle dagger isn't a single target spell which bouncing spell requires.
The Rime spell specifically calls out working for spells with the frost descriptor doing damage to a target. The conjured dagger is part of the spell. By your ruling you wouldn't allow empowered/maximized cloudkills or anything which alters spell damage that isn't a direct damage spell. That seems a bit narrow minded.
Either way, your houserules are your houserules.
I'm sorry, Bouncing Spell was a bad example. I should have stuck with the last point that focused on the fact that you are not taking damage from spell, you are taking damage from a separate weapon with a separate name that is created by the spell.
On the topic of cloudkill, that is a very different spell. The spell affects creatures in an area, and the effects of the spell are clearly labeled in the description. I see a clear distinction between a spell that affects "A living creature with 6 or more HD takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage..." versus "You create a masterwork dagger out of ice"
I'm sorting through the same rules right now. It looks like a number of these spells act very differently depending on the metamagic.
Metas like maximize and empower would work on Spiritual Weapon, and FlameBlade since they have numeric effects called out in the spell.
Icicle Dagger and Holy Ice Weapon are a bit hazy because they say weapon damage rather than a die damage. Then it adds spell damage on top of it. It looks like neither maximize nor empower will work with Icicle Dagger, but Holy Ice Weapon is unclear because of the1d4 holy damage it does.
Shadow Weapon and Instant Weapon have no variable damages listed so they look like a clear case of being excluded from maximize and empower.
Metas like daze, dazzle, RIME, sickening, toppling etc... should all work fine with these spells. They are all weapon-like spells, and with the exception of Instant Weapon, all feature either spell damage, a save or are affected by SR. Since Instant Weapon is so similar to the others, it seems RAI that it would be able to use similar metas, and the difficulty in resisting it is a force-based feature.
Just a note. Conjuration spells often dont have the spell resistamce. At least none of the attack interaction ones I can think of. One reason its my illusionists backup.
Icicle definitely makes a dagger but its not a normal one as later it melts and reforms I your hand. So I think the main point someone may argue would he if cold damage from it is a spell effect.
I havejt a clue. I would guess no.
Also on summon I guess it would maximize...? Doesnt it say it gets max of rolled dice? Does it specify damage? Im unable to look up
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Sorry, my example was poorly worded. I was commenting that the "All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized." aspect of Maximize Spell could modify the "1d4+1" aspect of Summon Monster spells.
A maximized Summon Monster spell definitely summons the maximum number of creatures. It is the only variable number called out in the spell. If damage was specified that would also be maximized.