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As the title says. I HATE having limited spells known. Yet, I almost always end up playing a caster with that exact mechanic because I like to RP evil, manipulative characters that have good bluff and diplomacy checks. However, I much, much prefer the mechanics of prepared casters like wizards and clerics. Now, I have build wizards and such with decent diplomacy and bluff checks before by using traits but I want to turn to you all to see just what you can do to make such a build yourselves. I have several stipulations that must be met when suggesting build ideas, and I will outline them below..
1) The class must be a fullcaster(as in gets 9th level spells) and cannot have limited spells known. While sorcs and oracles are great at manipulating they are stuck with the cruddy spells known mechanic. The whole point of this thread is to make a highly manipulative character who can AVOID having to deal with the cruddy spells known mechanic. Thus, your build cannot be a sorcerer or oracle unless it's using one of those classes as a dip, in which case I'll except them for that purpose. The spellbook mechanic does not count as "limited spells known" by the way, so both wizard and arcanist are a-ok to use here.
2) The character must have at least 14 intelligence. Intelligence is an important part of an evil manipulator mastermind and thus I want no less then 14 int and the more the better. Non-int based classes like cleric are fine but please be sure the build can function if certain physical stats like str are compromised a bit to get that 14 int.
3) The character can have no less then 14 charisma UNLESS you provide, with your mechanical suggestions, ideas for why a cunning, highly manipulative character like this one has such low charisma. In addition, your given RP reasons MUST be in line with the "evil mastermind" character type so you cannot use "they are really good at manipulating people but have low self-confidence/get ignored easily/don't stand out." You never see a mastermind unsure of his own abilities and they are usually are not "average joes" who people just ignore unless they actively try to be.(In which case they don't actually have low cha but are just faking it.)Likewise, you cannot use the excuse of saying he's just really really ugly because I do not subscribe to the idea that cha = physical beauty. You can be physically beautiful but have low cha and be butt ugly and have exceptional charisma. If you don't believe me you've never seen reality TV and many real world politicians.
4) The character must have, at minimum, a +7 modifier in both bluff and diplomacy at level 1, and higher modifiers are certainly encouraged. A good intimidate and sense motive would be nice, but are not mandatory. Just be sure bluff and diplomacy at lv 1 don't fall below +7.
Other then that, feel free to use whatever classes and do whatever you want with your ideas. So, does anybody think they can make the master manipulator spellcaster who doesn't suffer from being forced to have a limited number of spells known?
I think the class you're looking for is the arcanist, from Advanved Class Guide?
Do you have access to the book?
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I have access, yes, but the general consensus is that all the cha-based options for the class generally are crap. The class itself used doesn't matter as long as it is a fullcaster that doesn't have to deal with spells known. Cleric, wizard and even Witch are all viable for this as well. All that matters is that that they are a prepared caster with strong manipulative skills and RP that makes sense for an evil mastermind.
With page of spell knowledge being a thing, I haven't really found spells known to be a big issue past the first few levels. The lag in spell level and metamagic difficulty was always a greater concern.
Apart from that, an evil mastermind need not have high--or even average--Charisma to play the part. In fact, the true master manipulator would have little need of Charisma because the targets never even know that the manipulator exists. The primary use for the stat would be to enforce charm spells, but the master manipulator would not charm or dominate a PC except as a last resort. Rather the master manipulator would attack those the PCs' NPC employers, loved ones, and so forth--the weak links with crummy saves and little chance of retaliation even on a successful save.
A low Charisma does not mean that a character lacks self-confidence or has an average personality--only the ability to project personality onto those she meets. A true master manipulator meets few people in person and thus has no need of such a skill--though it doesn't hurt in a pinch.
All that aside, I'll see what I can come up with given your restrictions, but it probably won't be any better than something you could come up with yourself as an experienced wizard builder.
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As I said, the class doesn't have to be a wizard and doesn't even have to be arcane. Divine works just as well so if you think you could do this better with a cleric than you could a wizard, witch or arcanist then feel free to use that angle instead. Heck, with all that wisdom you'd not be half-bad at sense motive either, which is a good manipulator skill to have. The same goes with druid, though I can't really see a druid being built as a good manipulator but if you find something about a druid that can be abused as such, feel free.
As for my usual wizard build I simply use the fast-talker trait plus either ease of faith or extremely fashionable to get bluff and diplomacy as class skills. With a 14 charisma(not hard to get) and that gives me +7 in bluff and diplomacy at Lv 1. As I progress in levels I just use the fact I can cast spells as a way to boost my social skills, and if need be have cha-boosting items that I can swap into when entering into courtly situations or other places where I'd need the bonuses to social skills.
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Well, I'd just do what you're doing, though possibly with the aid of the Cosmopolitan Feat. Maybe go Half Elf or Human with the Silver Tongued and/or Focused alternate racial traits.
With Chr 12, Cosmopolitan, and a human with the traits mentioned, you can have Bluff +10, Diplomacy +7, at first level. Traits make that even higher, obviously. You won't have any free feats at 1st...but you'll never need to spend another on this the rest of your career, and will get more Skill Focus feats as you level.
I think the trait you're looking for is "Student of Philosophy" from Quest and Campaigns.
It allows you to use your Intelligence Modifier instead of Charisma when using Diplomacy to persuade others or when using Bluff to tell lies.
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Yeah, I found that trait and it works wonderful for what I'm trying to do. Along with cosmopolitan I can get +8 bluff and diplomacy for social skill checks at Lv 1. With silver-tonged human alternate racial trait I get +10 to bluff and diplomacy for social uses, meaning I'm not only a -passable- face but a VERY good one for that level. Since I'm going high int anyway I won't miss the extra skill. Also means I have to depend less on items to stay competitive with it as I level up.
As for the cleric build, that is interesting, if I do say so myself. Will definitely look into cleric more. With that build did you ever consider making it an evangelist instead? Since your not going for melee losing medium armor means little and you also get perform(Oratory) for free. If you decide to go that route focusing on summoning would be best, as with 16 starting wisdom offensive casting won't really be a thing for you.
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But I HATE having limited spells known. So that's why I want to avoid any and all classes with the spells known mechanic. It's not that Oracles and Sorcerers are bad. They are still ok, but the prepared casters are noticeably stronger and the sorcerer is about to be totally obsoleted by the arcanis.t(seriously, once arcanist comes out there is literally no reason to play a sorcerer other then RP. They are better than the sorcerer in every way possible to the point that sorcs go the way of the dodo. I'm not kidding. EVERYTHING a sorcerer can do mechanically the arcanist does but better. There is literally NO mechanical reason to not play arcanist over sorcerer. Sorcs will become nothing more than an RP class. Sad, I know, but true. If you don't believe this download the playtest and see for yourself.).
Due to being divine and having some powerful mysteries Oracles unlike sorcs will not go the way of the dodo, but still limited spells known is annoying as all heck to deal with on a caster. I have played oracles before, mind you, so they are not that bad, they are just overall weaker then wizards and clerics, and when I play them it's more for RP reasons then anything else. For that, they are good. I am the kind of player who is willing to somewhat gimp themselves for good role playing. However, as a player I highly prefer the prepared mechanic to the limited spells known one and as a result I want to both play the mechanic I enjoy most while also having the RP I desire. You guys had some great ideas on how to do this, so I thank you all for your input!
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I see. Issue is that build only comes into itself at level 15 and before that your basically stuck being gimped by spells known. Before then I assume you can't cast the spell you gain because you use a standard action to cast paragon surge and the spell is "lost" at the end of the turn? Or do you get to keep the spell for long enough to cast it during your next turn in which case the build -technically- comes on line as soon as you get level 3 spells and can qualify for expanded arcane and improved eldritch heritage(Arcane)?
Might want to look at the Arcane Discovery Infectious Charms.
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Ughbash, you know you don't actually need the feat noble scion to be a noble, right? Being from a noble family is totally an RP decision and I have played plenty of nobles who didn't have that feat at all. Just wanted to be sure that was clear. Also, that's a fun discovery, Gallyck. Certainly worth it for an enchantment specialist, but who says this character is going to be an enchanter? Enchantment tends to be a crappy tool for combat at higher levels and is instead better used to manipulate NPCs and other pawns rather then use directly against your enemies. Thus, it generally isn't worth fully specializing in as any wizard or arcanist can have access to them while not being gimped against foes who are immune to enchantment(which are plentiful) because their character is built entirely to abuse such spells. However, from a DM standpoint enchanters make excellent villains because you can give them custom items that allow them to bypass said immunity and actually make them a credible threat at high levels.
EDIT: Manipulation focus? What is this? I have never heard of it, ever. Is it some kind of obscure feat? obscure trait? obscure ACF? If so what sourcebook is it from? Do you mean the manipulator sub school of the enchantment school?
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Is minutes per-level enough to make use of it -in combat- at level 6, though? Or will you loose the spell before your next turn starts when you're able to cast it? Also, wasn't there some kind of ruling somewhere that basically said the paragon surge trick your describing is not possible or was that just opinion and not a hard ruling? If the latter, how would I argue to, say, a PF society DM that said opinion is actually just opinion and not a hard ruling?
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Yeah, but can you actually cast the spell you gain at that level or is the duration too short to actually use the spell I.E, you spend one turn casting paragon surge, then, next turn, has it worn off? As for out of combat, how is time handled? Since there is no turns, can you use one standard action and then immedatly use another to cast the spell gained, hence why it doesn't "wear off" before you can use it? Likewise, in combat, is the 6 minutes enough to get a spell and then cast it during your next turn or must you wait until higher levels for this use?