I have this dream of a gnome cavalier. At low levels, I see him riding a dog. But, at level 4 or so, I would like to upgrade him to something more interesting, such as a gecko (for the climb speed).
In an individual campaign, I would beg the GM. How do such things work in PFS?
I'm no PFS expert, but you should look under the "Extra Resources" or "Allowed Resources" sections and see what if anything it says about it.
My instinct says it's probably not possible.
There's an adventure, I can't remember which, whose chronicle sheet lets you have an owlbear mount.
You can always take the beast rider archetype which opens up about 15 exotics mounts at level 4. I believe it's in advanced players guide or maybe ultimate combat.
Ahh... in Ultimate Combat. That looks like the ticket. No gecko listed, but some pretty nice rides. Thank you.
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You can always take the beast rider archetype which opens up about 15 exotics mounts at level 4. I believe it's in advanced players guide or maybe ultimate combat.Ahh... in Ultimate Combat. That looks like the ticket. No gecko listed, but some pretty nice rides. Thank you.
If you have access to the advanced race guide there is a pfs legal feat for half-orcs called Beast rider, it opens up a flying mount, the pteranodon. Its basically a pterodactyl.
Giant Chameleon (starts Size Small, becomes Size Medium @4th level, with Climb Speed and Grab Tongue attack) is in Bestiary 3.
Archives of Nethys shows that as being PFS legal.
You just need "full" Druid Animal Companion Access to use it. You can get that with:
A 1 level dip in Druid.
A 1 level dip in Wildblooded Sorceror: Fey/Sylvan.
A 4 level dip in Beastmaster Ranger.
A 4 level dip in Cleric/Druid/Inquisitor/SacredServantPaladin with the Animal Domain.
Once you have full access, all Companion Class Levels stack together, you don't get 2 companions from 2 classes that grant one.
Beyond that it gets a little tricky, in that while they stack for scaling purposes, you would need to choose one actual class' ability to be using. That means that special abilities or bonuses specific to one class would not apply: e.g. if you use the Druid Companion because it has full list access, then you would not benefit from Cavalier Mount's special features: no armor penalty to ride skill, free light armor proficiency and combat trained tricks. At the same time, you wouldn't suffer any associated penalties, like Mount's lack of Share Spells. Other abilities outside of the Companion/Mount/etc themself may also affect the Companion, but I believe it depends on their terminology: e.g. if another ability specifically applies to a "Mount", then it WOULDN'T apply to a Druid Companion that is simply stacking levels from the Mount ability. Not being so rigorous about those differences can potentially lead to conflicts when each ability is mutually exclusive with other, i.e. they each specify somethat that MUST be (not just offer you a limited set of choices, which is compatable with something that expands your set of choices).
I would say that Ranger or Druid are your best options, Ranger not diverting from martial full BAB-dom, and Druid being the smallest possible diversion from Cavalier (and not suffering from ASF like Sorceror, so you can more easily actually use it's spells... albeit you can't cast in metal armor).
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Quandary, minor correction.
Levels only stack if the animal is on both lists.
If the animal is only on one list, you get that classes levels for that animal, and you get a second animal for the other class. (However, you can still only use one of the two animals in combat in PFS)
Also, while Giant Chameleon has a climb speed, I don't believe it has the "always on spider climb" of the gecko.
As far as I know, the only way to get a gecko in PFS is:
Druid
Beastmaster Ranger? (have to doublecheck that one.)
Mad Dog Barbarian
Hunter.
Buy one as a normal animal mount (not recommended, it won't level up with you.)
Levels only stack if the animal is on both lists.
If the animal is only on one list, you get that classes levels for that animal, and you get a second animal for the other class. (However, you can still only use one of the two animals in combat in PFS)
Where's that stated? The Druid Companion rule for stacking has no such limitation.
You can see Sean Reynolds responding to somebody else contradicting me explaining the exact same thing:
(EDIT: sorry, that sounds kind of bad, but it was an accurate description)
Incorrect. In fact, it's the exact opposite, and always has been.Just one question arises.If you multiclass into ranger or druid do you get a third dog?Animal Companion Classes always stack, multiple Companion classes don`t grant separate Companions.Druid class, Core Rulebook page 51:
Class Level: This is the character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.
I thought you may have been remembering from 3.5, but checking the 3.5 FAQ it appears to have been the same there stating that Ranger and Druid stack without any mention of "animal must be available to both lists", and explicitly saying that you can only have one Animal Companion (which doesn't work if two lists aren't compatable).
As I said though, you DO still need to choose which class's Companion ability to actually be using at any one time
(you could use one for some levels, release that one or let it die, and choose a new Companion from the other class),
so benefitting from one class' benefits, such as full list access, means you may miss out on other benefits
such as Cavalier's "no ACP to Ride and free Light Armor Proficiency for the Mount" or the Paladin Mount benefits.
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Also, while Giant Chameleon has a climb speed, I don't believe it has the "always on spider climb" of the gecko.
Right, Giant Gecko has the Spider Climb, Giant Chameleon doesn't (and must actually make Climb check albeit it has a big bonus and can take 10 and 5' step and move up to the distance it's Climb Speed allows, excepting Running). I just happened to link the Chameleon instead of the Gecko, both are PFS legal options with their own Companion stats.
As I said though, you DO still need to choose which class's Companion ability to actually be using at any one time
(you could use one for some levels, release that one or let it die, and choose a new Companion from the other class),
so benefitting from one class' benefits, such as full list access, means you may miss out on other benefits
That's based on my conservative reading of RAW, I haven't seen any Paizo ruling on the matter, they could very well be more liberal in allowing different class Companion abilities to "cross pollinate" their unique benefits. That would be FAQ worthy, IMHO, even if it just confirms the conservative RAW reading.
Still not seeing how you get to that conclusion from RAW.
The FAQ ruling contxtually makes sense if your end goal is to be able to use ALL the Mount features (Armor, Ride check, etc),
you can only use those if actually activating the Mount feature which means you follow it's rules re: animal choices.
But if Mount is at all meant to count as a Companion as far as stacking,
then Druid's RAW that it stacks with class levels for scaling purposes still applies, with no caveat about compatable animal type.
If you don't think it counts as a Companion for stacking purposes, then it doesn't even if the animal type is on both lists,
there just is no RAW that states it stacks only for mutually compatable animal types.
Animal companions have to be on the list for the abilities to stack in PFS
You can derive from RAW that a Druid1/Samurai cannot have a Tiger MOUNT.
They could have a Tiger Druid Animal Companion benefitting from Samurai levels for scaling.
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Animal companions have to be on the list for the abilities to stack in PFSYou can derive from RAW that a Druid1/Samurai cannot have a Tiger MOUNT.
They could have a Tiger Druid Animal Companion benefitting from Samurai levels for scaling.
Don't try to evade a perfectly clear clarification. You can always come up with another reason why the phrasing isn't exactly right (i didn't say no purple dragons).
For regular play its debatable. For PFS this is a clear, concise, NO, that trick doesn't work.
If the FAQ isn't derivable from RAW, then it's stealth Errata.
If they want to do that, OK, but it seems that they're ignoring the other issue with multiclassing besides ability/stat scaling.
The FAQ doesn't even address "crosspollinating" of each class' unique abilities, i.e. Share Spell vs. No ACP Ride + Armor, etc.
I definitely DON'T want to try to "evade" this, which is why I just created a thread specifically bringing the issue to their attention.
(I wasn't aware of that FAQ ruling or PFS ruling until now, I just knew the RAW and SKR's previous comment on the matter)
If they want to affirm that they are issuing stealth Errata or over-riding RAW, OK,
if they recognize that stat/ability scaling is a distinct issue from cross-polinating unique class abilities, OK.
Even if they want to uphold their Stealth Errata ruling, clarifying things re: the "crosspollinating" issue seems valid to do.
(as well as clarifying other repurcussions from potentially having 2 companions)
My apologies for restarting a contentious debate. I didn't find the link the BigNorseWolf linked to.
That seems to beat this question to death sufficiently.
I have one last point of confusion.
When I look at this in the Ultimate Combat SRD:
In addition, a 7th-level or higher Medium beast rider can select any creature whose natural size is Large or Huge, provided that creature is normally available as a Medium-sized animal companion at 7th level (like a bear). To generate statistics for such a mount, apply the following modifications: Size Large; Ability Scores Str +2, Dex –2, Con +2. Increase the damage of each of the mount's natural attacks by one die size. A beast rider cannot choose a mount that is not capable of bearing his weight, that has fewer than four legs, or that has a fly speed (although the GM may allow mounts with a swim speed in certain environments).
I wonder why a Small beast rider could not select a Medium or Large creature which is normally available as a Small-sized animal companion.
Good question.
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I wonder why a Small beast rider could not select a Medium or Large creature which is normally available as a Small-sized animal companion.
The Beast Rider archetype, as written, does nothing for Medium characters until level 7.
I don't know that there are any Small-sized animal companions at level 7.
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I wonder why a Small beast rider could not select a Medium or Large creature which is normally available as a Small-sized animal companion.The Beast Rider archetype, as written, does nothing for Medium characters until level 7.
I don't know that there are any Small-sized animal companions at level 7.
This is a great question, I wish I was at home so I could poor over the bestiary for some small sized creatures. I would like to know how this works from a rules stand point, I want to know why they limited this cool ability to only being available to Medium cavaliers.
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This is a great question, I wish I was at home so I could poor over the bestiary for some small sized creatures. I would like to know how this works from a rules stand point, I want to know why they limited this cool ability to only being available to Medium cavaliers.I wonder why a Small beast rider could not select a Medium or Large creature which is normally available as a Small-sized animal companion.The Beast Rider archetype, as written, does nothing for Medium characters until level 7.
I don't know that there are any Small-sized animal companions at level 7.
Only one I can find is the Bird (Eagle/Hawk/Owl). If that is in fact the only Small option, I imagine the limit is there to keep the Beast Rider from getting a flying mount (the Roc is not available for Medium PCs, as it's Large size at level 7).
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You don't have to advance the size of your Animal Companion at 4th or 7th if you don't want to.
Beyond a useful fact that many forget, I am not sure I understand the direction of your comment, could you elaborate a little bit on your intentions behind this statement, which again is a helpful statement, a lot of halfling cavaliers end up with large size wolfs and complain they lost the best part of the wolf because of it and this is due to not knowing they can keep them medium but still get some additional benefits.
I found one, that would not be ruled illegal like the Bird example would (since the rule in question rules out Fly speed).
Giant Gecko is a normally Medium creature available as Small (base) and Medium (optional at 4th).
I believe the Gecko DOES fit the implicit logic of the 7th level Beastrider ability,
because it's normal Companion Stats CAN be the same size as a Small rider at 7th level (if you don't go with the normal (but optional) Size upgrade).
It also fulfills the no-fly speed, 4+ legs, and capable of bearing weight sub-rules.
If you were able to use that, you should apply the special 7th level Beastrider rule on top of the 'alternatively upgraded base stats',
not using ANY of the normal 4th level Size Upgrade stats, meaning you would not gain a faster speed and natural armor. (+10' +2 AC)
The Gecko actually comes out fine by that, because unlike most Companions, it doesn't gain any significant unique ability with the normal Size Upgrade.
(e.g. Chameleon gains Tongue/Pull ability then, which it would miss out on if you didn't use that upgrade)
Yet Giant Geckos are excluded because the entire passage is stated to only apply to Medium Cavaliers.
A Giant Chameleon IS a RAW-legal Mount for a MEDIUM Cavalier if you use Nefreet's approach, choosing not to use the normal (but optional) Size Upgrade at 4th level. You do miss out on the Tongue ability (and +10' move speed and +2 Nat AC), but it is a creature with a Climb Speed if that matters to you.
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A Giant Chameleon IS a RAW-legal Mount for a MEDIUM Cavalier if you use Nefreet's approach, choosing not to use the normal (but optional) Size Upgrade at 4th level.
I don't think that's what they mean by "like a bear."
Then again, why am I trying to divine intent in an archetype where an entire paragraph is dedicated to detailing options you can't legally pick?
The archetype allows Giant Turtles (with Swim Speed) and Dinosaurs. I don't see how Giant Chameleon is implausibly far out.
Clearly the paragraph exists because it's intended to actually allow more creatures than just a "Bear". Giant Chameleon qualifies by the RAW.
Anything with fewer than 4 legs or with a Fly Speed is inherently ruled out, so no birds or apes.
EDIT: Goblin Dogs, Hyena, Llama, Panda, and Ram (without Powerful Charge), and Giant Crabs, Giant Frog, Monitor Lizard, and Crocodile (all w/ Swim Speed, without Death Roll and Sprint for Croc, without Swallow Whole for Frog and without Poison for Monitor Lizard), Giant Ants, Giant Centipedes, Giant Weasels, and Giant Spider (all w/ Climb Speed), and Wolverines (w/ Climb and Burrow albeit slow speeds, using Badger Companion stats) are also options that would be legit for Small Cavaliers if they were allowed to use the same logic rather than being explicitly excluded as per RAW.
EDIT2: Archelons seem to be RAW-legal for Medium Cavaliers using Nefreet's approach, although it's basically just variant land/swim speeds compared to the Giant Snapping Turtle which is already explicitly mentioned. Also Baluchitherium, Diplodocus, Elasmosaurus, Elk, Giraffe, Hippopotamus, Iguanodon, Megalania, Megatherium (another with Climb Speed, albeit slow), Moose (without Powerful Charge), Pachycephalosaurus (without Clobbering Charge), Parasaurolophus, Rhinosaurus, and Giant Scorpion (without upgraded Poison and Tremorsense).
All that seems 100% spot-on for reasonable things they could ride, and MOST of those are enabled by using Nefreet's method. Honestly, many of the abilities lost by needing to use the 'optional non-Size increase' version to qualify in fact seem pretty reasonable to gain (even if all of them aren't). If anything, changing "creature" to "animal", to exclude Vermin would be the only change I think the RAW would need, and allowing Vermin doesn't seem the end of the world either.
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The archetype allows Giant Turtles (with Swim Speed) and Dinosaurs. I don't see how Giant Chameleon is implausibly far out.
Clearly the paragraph exists because it's intended to actually allow more creatures than just a "Bear". Giant Chameleon qualifies by the RAW.
When I say "like a bear" I mean "normally available as a Medium-sized animal companion at 7th level." 'Normally' implies using standard advancement. A Giant Chameleon animal companion isn't normally medium-sized at level 7, even though it can be.
But I'm not really interested in arguing the point, because 1) I'm not saying that the same options shouldn't be given to small-sized characters, 2) the archetype is poorly written to begin with and open to lots of questionable interpretations (which I believe Nefreet's to be), and 3) if adding this language means revisiting the archetype and possibly fixing it for medium characters, I'm all for it.
I do think such a change is unlikely to happen anytime soon if at all since they just released the update for Ultimate Combat.
If abilities from the 'normal' (optional) size upgrade aren't gained if you use the non-standard non-size upgrade to qualify, then the following creatures would lose these abilities: Baluchitherium (Trample), Hippopotamus (Trample), Iguanodon (thumb spikes), Megalania (Poison), Megatherium (Rend), Moose (Powerful Charge), Pachycephalosaurus (Clobbering Charge), Parasaurolophus (Trample), Rhinosaurus (Powerful Charge), and Giant Scorpion (without upgraded Poison and Tremorsense).
For Small Cavaliers (if allowed) the following would lose these abilities by that reading: Ram (Powerful Charge), Crocodile (Death Roll and Sprint), Frog (Swallow Whole), Monitor Lizard (Poison), and Giant Ant (Poison).
Honestly, many of the abilities lost by this reading in fact seem pretty reasonable to gain, as they're often already granted by animals explicitly allowed by the archetype. If this were to be Errata'd to allow Small Cavaliers to benefit, I would consider allowing those abilities to be gained. (or that being somehow made an official ruling, although I don't see how to allow that by RAW) Excluding Vermin by specifying Animal instead of Creature seems pretty reasonable and ensures closer conformance with the Mounts explicitly spelled out in the Class Archetype.
When I say "like a bear" I mean "normally available as a Medium-sized animal companion at 7th level." 'Normally' implies using standard advancement. A Giant Chameleon animal companion isn't normally medium-sized at level 7, even though it can be.
I totally get where you're coming from, in a more conventional English context, that makes some sense. But I view "normal" here (in this rules context) as more specifically meaning "without this ability being in play", which allows for the other advancement options as well. As I pointed out, using that approach will exclude alot of abilities (that are gained by the animals explicitly allowed by the archetype).
But I'm not really interested in arguing the point, because 1) I'm not saying that the same options shouldn't be given to small-sized characters, 2) the archetype is poorly written to begin with and open to lots of questionable interpretations (which I believe Nefreet's to be), and 3) if adding this language means revisiting the archetype and possibly fixing it for medium characters, I'm all for it.
I do think such a change is unlikely to happen anytime soon if at all since they just released the update for Ultimate Combat.
Awesome. I would put the chances just a little higher than that, because while real Errata/New Print Run isn't happening soon, Paizo seems happy to release FAQs that effectively alter the RAW in some way. (I have no problem with that although I prefer when they spell out when they are doing so) A FAQ stating that Small Beastriders can make similar usage of the rule (for creatures whose normal form is Medium or Large but which have Small Companion stats) seems wholly within the scope of a small FAQ, and fixes a glaring discrepancy in the class while allowing options that basically conform to the class concept. Likewise, a clarification that only Animals are allowed is simple enough to include in a "FAQ".
EDIT: The line saying that GMs "may" allow Mounts with a Swim Speed in "a certain environment" is just silly/superfluous, since there is no BAR on such Mounts to begin with, and even some of the creatures EXPLICITLY GRANTED (Giant Snapping Turtles) already have Swim Speeds. If FAQ/Errata is being issued, it seems plausible that said rule would be amended/"clarified" to mean that the GM "may" allow Mounts with a Swim Speed that do not fulfill the 4+ leg requirement, as that is the only meaningful difference that a special GM allowance for Swim Speed could have.
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If FAQ/errata are being issued, I'd hope the first thing addressed is the fact that a medium-sized beast rider cavalier is stuck with a horse or camel until level 7.
I could see how the 7th level ability being limited to medium cavalier's makes sense, they have to wait longer but they get a greater reward per se where as the small Cav' gets a cool new mount at 4th but the list is more limited. I can at least see the intention behind why its written that way.
If FAQ/errata are being issued, I'd hope the first thing addressed is the fact that a medium-sized beast rider cavalier is stuck with a horse or camel until level 7.What are you talking about?
Medium beast riders can choose a camel or horse mount at 1st level. At 4th level, a Medium beast rider can also choose an allosaurus, ankylosaurus, arsinoitherium, aurochs, bison, brachiosaurus, elephant, glyptodon, hippopotamus, lion, mastodon, megaloceros, giant snapping turtle, tiger, triceratops, or tyrannosaurus as his mount. Additional mounts might be available with GM approval.
In addition, a 7th-level or higher Medium beast rider can select any creature whose natural size is Large or Huge, provided that creature is normally available as a Medium-sized animal companion at 7th level (like a bear). To generate statistics for such a mount, apply the following modifications:
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If FAQ/errata are being issued, I'd hope the first thing addressed is the fact that a medium-sized beast rider cavalier is stuck with a horse or camel until level 7.What are you talking about?Medium beast riders can choose a camel or horse mount at 1st level. At 4th level, a Medium beast rider can also choose an allosaurus, ankylosaurus, arsinoitherium, aurochs, bison, brachiosaurus, elephant, glyptodon, hippopotamus, lion, mastodon, megaloceros, giant snapping turtle, tiger, triceratops, or tyrannosaurus as his mount. Additional mounts might be available with GM approval.
All of the mounts listed are medium-sized at level 4.
