And that's my real problem with a lot of 'give us more more more races!" They aren't interesting, they are a collection of gimmicks rather than a society and people. As a one shot critter, sure a half-squidfolk half-mudperson might be interesting, but as a playable race that there are presumably more of and have become something more than a cross-bred nightmare they seldom make sense.Why? Chimeraic freaks aren't inherently more interesting, they're just gimmicks. If you don't have anything interesting about the character past the gimmicks, you're not only no better off than you started, you're considerably worse.the different fantasy races aren't an issue, i want to see more. even if it is merely things like hybrids. but my issue with humanocentricy, is that if humans are the dominant species, and all the others races are dying out because 'lol hoomuns'. why are they still playable?
i'd love to see flourishing communities of nonhuman races, and not in the steriotypical form, as well as unique hybrids involving more than merely the human's innate ability to breed with everything.
i'd like to see such things as half-elf/nymph crossbreeds, halfling/pixie or dwarf/orc.
a series of rules for creating Hybrid Races or Subraces Race Builder Style would be pretty cool and alleviate a lot of this. not everyone looking for a fancy race or hybrid, is a munchkin seeking power, some of us, simply want to play something that isn't human, and isn't part of the established Tolkein mold.
i'm not asking to play a half-squidfolk half-mudperson
maybe i have a concept for a character that is the hybrid offspring of an orcish raid on a dwarven fortress, maybe i want to play the daughter of events involving a pixie whom won a male halfling's love through trickery, maybe i want to play the scion of events of a half-elf noble that was raised by humans then whom fell in love with, and spoiled a nymph as his bride.
the characters could actually be made into something interesting, with a few possible mary sue traits, but why can't a catfolk samurai breed with an ulfen shield maiden?
why can't a half-elf breed with a nymph?
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why can't a half-elf breed with a nymph?
[off topic]
I use 2nd edition AD&D, but I'd say this would be a pretty good reason a half-elf (or any other male humanoid/demi-human for that matter) couldn't breed with a nymph:
Looking at a nymph will cause permanent blindness unless the onlookers save versus spell. If the nymph is nude or disrobes, an onlooker will die unless a saving throw versus spell is successful.
And unlike later editions, nymphs can't just "turn off" that whole "look at me and you'll go blind" thing...
[/end off topic]
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No matter. The third eye is already blind.
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And that's my real problem with a lot of 'give us more more more races!" They aren't interesting, they are a collection of gimmicks rather than a society and people. As a one shot critter, sure a half-squidfolk half-mudperson might be interesting, but as a playable race that there are presumably more of and have become something more than a cross-bred nightmare they seldom make sense.Why? Chimeraic freaks aren't inherently more interesting, they're just gimmicks. If you don't have anything interesting about the character past the gimmicks, you're not only no better off than you started, you're considerably worse.the different fantasy races aren't an issue, i want to see more. even if it is merely things like hybrids. but my issue with humanocentricy, is that if humans are the dominant species, and all the others races are dying out because 'lol hoomuns'. why are they still playable?
i'd love to see flourishing communities of nonhuman races, and not in the steriotypical form, as well as unique hybrids involving more than merely the human's innate ability to breed with everything.
i'd like to see such things as half-elf/nymph crossbreeds, halfling/pixie or dwarf/orc.
a series of rules for creating Hybrid Races or Subraces Race Builder Style would be pretty cool and alleviate a lot of this. not everyone looking for a fancy race or hybrid, is a munchkin seeking power, some of us, simply want to play something that isn't human, and isn't part of the established Tolkein mold.
i'm not asking to play a half-squidfolk half-mudperson
maybe i have a concept for a character that is the hybrid offspring of an orcish raid on a dwarven fortress, maybe i want to play the daughter of events involving a pixie whom won a male halfling's love through trickery, maybe i want to play the scion of events of a half-elf noble that was raised by humans then whom fell in love with, and spoiled a nymph as his bride....
[Emphasis mine]
Maybe THIS might be up your alley?
Is a special snowflake half special and half snowflake?
What if their parents were human - is it still humanocentricistic?
Can I take it as a bloodline?
[sorry, couldn't resist. I think I have cerebral scarring still]
I haven't really seen hate on humanocentricity until this thread really, huh.
But I've no problem with a humanocentric world, a human minority world, or one where there aren't even many humans.
I admit my homebrew world's pretty typical with more humans and human ethnicities than other races by far (mostly because of letting certain imaginings go out of control) but I've also tried to give races multiple ethnic groups (even if it's for example, two groups of elves versus lots of humans), and there are countries/societies that are explicitly multiracial as well. I'd like to think I did okay with that.
I think I'd like to see more non humanocentric worlds just for the sake of something different, but I have nothing against the ones that exist.
Ever read Terry Brooks' Shannara series? Essentially it was our world (although he's recently written novels to bridge his Sci-Fi world so it's not quite our world, with Shannara) but the "Last Great War of Man" (pretty much always sounded like World War III to me) basically destroyed the world. Humans survived, but the elves and dwarves and all such races that were in hiding came back. In that setting humans aren't dominant, they are mostly equal with everyone until the second trilogy where the elves retreat again.
Well...technically only the elves came back. The dwarves, gnomes, and trolls were all mutant humans created in the aftermath of World War 3
And that's my real problem with a lot of 'give us more more more races!" They aren't interesting, they are a collection of gimmicks rather than a society and people. As a one shot critter, sure a half-squidfolk half-mudperson might be interesting, but as a playable race that there are presumably more of and have become something more than a cross-bred nightmare they seldom make sense.Why? Chimeraic freaks aren't inherently more interesting, they're just gimmicks. If you don't have anything interesting about the character past the gimmicks, you're not only no better off than you started, you're considerably worse.the different fantasy races aren't an issue, i want to see more. even if it is merely things like hybrids. but my issue with humanocentricy, is that if humans are the dominant species, and all the others races are dying out because 'lol hoomuns'. why are they still playable?
i'd love to see flourishing communities of nonhuman races, and not in the steriotypical form, as well as unique hybrids involving more than merely the human's innate ability to breed with everything.
i'd like to see such things as half-elf/nymph crossbreeds, halfling/pixie or dwarf/orc.
a series of rules for creating Hybrid Races or Subraces Race Builder Style would be pretty cool and alleviate a lot of this. not everyone looking for a fancy race or hybrid, is a munchkin seeking power, some of us, simply want to play something that isn't human, and isn't part of the established Tolkein mold.
i'm not asking to play a half-squidfolk half-mudperson
maybe i have a concept for a character that is the hybrid offspring of an orcish raid on a dwarven fortress, maybe i want to play the daughter of events involving a pixie whom won a male halfling's love through trickery, maybe i want to play the scion of events of a half-elf noble that was raised by humans then whom fell in love with, and spoiled a nymph as his bride.
the characters could actually be made into something interesting, with a few possible mary sue traits, but why can't a catfolk samurai breed with an ulfen shield maiden?
why can't a half-elf breed with a nymph?
Bolded for emphasis. That is the main thing that turns me off from allowing hybrids or crazy races. I don't like the Mary Sue traits. Despise them both from a GMing standpoint and a literary standpoint. It screams of attention seeking that honestly bothers me when I'm running a game. I believe that all players will get the spotlight because the game is about all of them, not just one person that wants to hog the spotlight. And unfortunately, I have found more often than not that people that want to play the crazier races tend to fall into the "Mary Sue" group. So when someone brings me a character idea that is very different from the norm, I take a very good look at the personality qualities before allowing it.
And before anyone calls me a terrible GM for not allowing crazy races, I currently have a player who is an awakened bear/cleric :p
Bolded for emphasis. That is the main thing that turns me off from allowing hybrids or crazy races. I don't like the Mary Sue traits.
Mary Sue traits are relative to the setting. If everyone is a wizard, it isn't a Mary Sue trait to be a wizard. If everyone's a half-fae catboy, it's not Mary Sue to be a half-fae catboy. It's only a humanocentric setting where "unusual" races are rare that it's Mary Sue to play an unusual race.
Bolded for emphasis. That is the main thing that turns me off from allowing hybrids or crazy races. I don't like the Mary Sue traits.Mary Sue traits are relative to the setting. If everyone is a wizard, it isn't a Mary Sue trait to be a wizard. If everyone's a half-fae catboy, it's not Mary Sue to be a half-fae catboy. It's only a humanocentric setting where "unusual" races are rare that it's Mary Sue to play an unusual race.
Not really. When I think of Mary Sue, I think of a character that is perfect in every way and everybody loves them. No flaws, no hang-ups, and generally, wish-fulfillment for the author/player. I find flawed characters to be much more interesting and overall, better for the health of the group. No one is getting their toes stepped-on conceptually and no one is being annoyed at the one person trying to garner all the attention for themselves. Mind you, this happens with more than just players that play weird races. I've had plenty of players play odd races that were interesting and fun. Like my bear cleric. But, in my experience, I've noticed the Mary Sue traits more from people wanting to play the rarer races. So I either work with them to make it less Mary Sue, or, if that doesn't work, ask them to make me another character.
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I find it hard to imagine a world where everyone is a half-fae catboy. Wouldn't you need lots of fae and full catpeople to produce them all?
To start with yes. Once enough interbreeding happens everyone would be some mix of both, assuming no efforts to remain pure blooded.
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Never understood the point of moar racez nowz. I think that a few races, but well fleshed out would be much more beneficial in the long run.
First question I ask a player who wants to play a planetouched/some kind of freak of nature or some such is "Why do you want to play this?".
If the answer is "Because it's cool", or "I have this great backstory", I'll allow it.
If it's "I wanna be special, humans suck etc", I'll disallow it.
I also inform the player that his character will most certainly be subjected to some form of racism and bigotry during play. And that if he/she cannot handle that, I suggest playing a less 'special' race.
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I kinda thought adventurers by nature were all ready the crazy and weird ones for their whole lifestyle. Otherwise why arent there more of them out there? I would imagine you would find that Half-fae catperson more like to be a traveling adventuring hero that joe schmoe farmer... but that could just be me.
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Never understood the point of moar racez nowz. I think that a few races, but well fleshed out would be much more beneficial in the long run.
It's not about raw numbers of choices. The thing is, Pathfinder's selection of races in the CRB is very narrow and limited. Compare Pathfinder's seven options (dwarf, elf, gnome, half-elf, half-orc, halfling, and human) to D&D 4e's eight options (dragonborn, dwarf, eladrin, elf, human, half-elf, halfling, and tiefling). Just one more option, but much broader variety in the options. Or consider Fantasy Craft's twelve options: drake, dwarf, elf, giant, goblin, human, ogre, orc, halfling, ent, lizardfolk, and golem.* That selection allows much more characters than Pathfinder's seven options. If Pathfinder had a better selection of races in the CRB, I think we'd see less people wanting to play non-core races.
* I changed a few names for clarity. Ent, for example, is more clear than rootwalker, the actual name for the race.
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Never understood the point of moar racez nowz. I think that a few races, but well fleshed out would be much more beneficial in the long run.It's not about raw numbers of choices. The thing is, Pathfinder's selection of races in the CRB is very narrow and limited. Compare Pathfinder's seven options (dwarf, elf, gnome, half-elf, half-orc, halfling, and human) to D&D 4e's eight options (dragonborn, dwarf, eladrin, elf, human, half-elf, halfling, and tiefling). Just one more option, but much broader variety in the options. Or consider Fantasy Craft's twelve options: drake, dwarf, elf, giant, goblin, human, ogre, orc, halfling, ent, lizardfolk, and golem.* That selection allows much more characters than Pathfinder's seven options. If Pathfinder had a better selection of races in the CRB, I think we'd see less people wanting to play non-core races.
* I changed a few names for clarity. Ent, for example, is more clear than rootwalker, the actual name for the race.
Personally, I find the core races more then sufficient.
Not really. When I think of Mary Sue, I think of a character that is perfect in every way and everybody loves them. No flaws, no hang-ups, and generally, wish-fulfillment for the author/player. I find flawed characters to be much more interesting and overall, better for the health of the group. No one is getting their toes stepped-on conceptually and no one is being annoyed at the one person trying to garner all the attention for themselves. Mind you, this happens with more than just players that play weird races. I've had plenty of players play odd races that were interesting and fun. Like my bear cleric. But, in my experience, I've noticed the Mary Sue traits more from people wanting to play the rarer races. So I either work with them to make it less Mary Sue, or, if that doesn't work, ask them to make me another character.Bolded for emphasis. That is the main thing that turns me off from allowing hybrids or crazy races. I don't like the Mary Sue traits.Mary Sue traits are relative to the setting. If everyone is a wizard, it isn't a Mary Sue trait to be a wizard. If everyone's a half-fae catboy, it's not Mary Sue to be a half-fae catboy. It's only a humanocentric setting where "unusual" races are rare that it's Mary Sue to play an unusual race.
well, all of my characters have a flaw or few somewhere. sometimes, the flaw is an anime cliche. but my characters are never truly perfect, though some of them see themselves that way
Half-Nymph Noble Bard? she was a sickly little girl whom could probably drop to the negatives if an ogre just sneezed on her. plus she couldn't fight her way out of a paper bag
my angelkin battle oracle of the iron lord, she was oblivious, had ADHD, and she was obsessed with being cute, she was a crazy valkyrie-spawn
my onispawn heavily multiclassed monk thingie, despite her decent intelligence, she thought with the patterns of a T-Rex, was over 8 feet tall, and had to take squeezing penalties every time she entered a dungeon
they are members of noncore and even exotic races, but they stood out by being weird and awkward in a sense, but in slightly different yet unsettling ways. none of them really hogged the spotlight because there were characters far more optimized and far more attention grabbing.
So, nothing against you, but I'm super picky about anime cliches and am probably much more judgmental than I really ought to be when presented with a character that fits into anime stereotypes. But that's a matter of taste and experience for me, nothing against you.
Added small treant like nature warriors and otyughs to one of my games. Both eventually died, but it sure was fun.
One was all sorts of creepy, the other had an immense hunger, and could communicate and express emotion, but the hunger was always lying beneath. A hungry otyugh actually works well with an adventuring party. After all, many adventurers are hungry for gold, the otyugh just wants to gorge itself on whatever they kill and whatever filthy scraps they find.
So, nothing against you, but I'm super picky about anime cliches and am probably much more judgmental than I really ought to be when presented with a character that fits into anime stereotypes. But that's a matter of taste and experience for me, nothing against you.
the 3 examples i mentioned, though animesque, could work in non-anime media too. it's not like they weren't that mainstream a concept.
Anime, and anime topics, genres and the borrowing from other cultures is legion.
I have always been surprised by the anti-anime crowd on here (is it an American thing?), but anime crawls into and draws upon so much. Anime has been merged into fantasy for decades.
Anime, and anime topics, genres and the borrowing from other cultures is legion.
I have always been surprised by the anti-anime crowd on here (is it an American thing?), but anime crawls into and draws upon so much. Anime has been merged into fantasy for decades.
anime and other media have been fusing ideas since the 60s at the very least.
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They love something you love, so you hate them?
It can be a weird crowd sure, but they have similar interests to your own, and you despise them? They aren't really your enemy.
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Personally, I find the core races more then sufficient.Never understood the point of moar racez nowz. I think that a few races, but well fleshed out would be much more beneficial in the long run.It's not about raw numbers of choices. The thing is, Pathfinder's selection of races in the CRB is very narrow and limited. Compare Pathfinder's seven options (dwarf, elf, gnome, half-elf, half-orc, halfling, and human) to D&D 4e's eight options (dragonborn, dwarf, eladrin, elf, human, half-elf, halfling, and tiefling). Just one more option, but much broader variety in the options. Or consider Fantasy Craft's twelve options: drake, dwarf, elf, giant, goblin, human, ogre, orc, halfling, ent, lizardfolk, and golem.* That selection allows much more characters than Pathfinder's seven options. If Pathfinder had a better selection of races in the CRB, I think we'd see less people wanting to play non-core races.
* I changed a few names for clarity. Ent, for example, is more clear than rootwalker, the actual name for the race.
That's good for you I suppose. But some of us want something more fantastical in our fantasy than a bunch of humans with slightly-altered physiques.
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Having a playable avian race in the game suddenly gives a character a very useful/powerful ability to fly extremely early in the games,
Tengu can fly? :P
Anyway, it's possible to have a winged race without giving flight at 1st level. The raptorans from the 3.5 splat book Races of the Wild did this. Starting at 1st level they can glide, traveling 20' forward for every 5' of descent. At 5th level, they can fly for a number of consecutive rounds equal to their Con mod (but they can glide between that). At 10th level, they get full flight all day e'ry day.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Yes. Just focusing on "elf," for a moment.... can you imagine yourself at age 70? Can you really envision how you're going to behave? I rather doubt it.I doubly doubt you can imagine yourself at the age of 270.
[tangental]
As I tried to 'get into' the older one's head, I felt more and more he would become detached from humanity. A life long commitment? Spending 40 or 70 years with a human lover was little more than a 'fling' to him. Trouble with werewolves or mages? just outlive them. I stoppled playing the older one, in part because my personality changed post divorce, but in part because I realized I couldn't understand my creation anymore.
The 200 year old immortal on the other hand, became horrified at his mentor's casual attitude on mortality. He tried to form deep friendships to *not* become like his mentor. If I lived another 100 years I can't imagine how I'd feel knowing my friends, and possibly their kids and grandkids had gone on before me.
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They love something you love, so you hate them?
It can be a weird crowd sure, but they have similar interests to your own, and you despise them? They aren't really your enemy.
No they rabidly, change-their-lives-to-be-all-about-that, love it. I hate rabid fans of anything. They usually do more harm to the object of their affection then good.
I am a fan, not a fanboy. There's a big difference.
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So, nothing against you, but I'm super picky about anime cliches and am probably much more judgmental than I really ought to be when presented with a character that fits into anime stereotypes. But that's a matter of taste and experience for me, nothing against you.the 3 examples i mentioned, though animesque, could work in non-anime media too. it's not like they weren't that mainstream a concept.
Honestly, I'd disallow the second one because having run a player that did the exact same thing (down to the race, is this from some anime I don't know about?), it was very disruptive to the players and groan worthy at how one dimensional the character was. I had to politely tell the player that the bearded devil that was murdering her friends doesn't care how "moe" he was. He is still dragging them to hell.
Anime, and anime topics, genres and the borrowing from other cultures is legion.
I have always been surprised by the anti-anime crowd on here (is it an American thing?), but anime crawls into and draws upon so much. Anime has been merged into fantasy for decades.
Never said I hated anime. I dislike most though because they seem to always fall into the same annoying tropes and cliches that at this point are either hackneyed or kind of creepy. I find it rare to see an anime that deviates from the current trend or tries something more than just being a slice-of-life, self-insert anime. But that's a rant for a different thread.
Which is why I always hesitate before I allow certain tropes. Like the last time I allowed an anime trope, it was the "13 year old girl but really 500 years old" type of character. It got very creepy very quickly.
When I think of Mary Sue, I think of a character that is perfect in every way and everybody loves them. No flaws, no hang-ups, and generally, wish-fulfillment for the author/player.You've just described D&D/PF humans.
Except not really? I mean, sure, in Golarion, humans are dominant. But they are far from perfect. Whether it's the squabbling nobles in the River Kingdoms, the devil-run nation of Cheliax, or the permanent winterland of Irrsien, you'll find that humans are generally f&#&ing everything up. So I'd hardly say that they are Mary Sue characters.
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Personally, I find the core races more then sufficient.
I do find this kind of humorous coming from someone with a gnoll icon.
Honestly, I'm pretty cool with crazy races (or any races) as long as they aren't played as one-dimensional caricatures or gimmicks. Which is indeed totally possible.
Having a playable avian race in the game suddenly gives a character a very useful/powerful ability to fly extremely early in the games,Tengu can fly? :P
Anyway, it's possible to have a winged race without giving flight at 1st level. The raptorans from the 3.5 splat book Races of the Wild did this. Starting at 1st level they can glide, traveling 20' forward for every 5' of descent. At 5th level, they can fly for a number of consecutive rounds equal to their Con mod (but they can glide between that). At 10th level, they get full flight all day e'ry day.
Strix can fly from the get go.
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Strix can fly from the get go.
Sure, but it's possible to make a flying race that cannot fly from level 1. The point is, there's a solution to the potential balance issues that arise from having a winged race. Balance isn't a good reason to disallow winged races.
I've never understood the mentality that says, "I don't like it, therefore it sucks."Would you feel better if you my post from the beginning of this thread you quoted was instead written as follows?
In my opinion, it's boring, played out, and overdone. And often, it isn't very fantastic.
I thought the implicit "in my opinion" was clear---the question in the OP was why people dislike humanocentric settings. But maybe it wasn't clear.
99% of everything is crap, and I assume that applies to Anime as well as it does to any other medium/genre
As for flight (or other special abilities), how useful it can be is really dependent on the game and style of game. It's going to be more powerful in a game where stuff mostly takes place in the wilderness and involves a lot of exploring, but probably a lot less useful in a heavy dungeon game with intrigue. And to be fair most of the races with interesting abilities come with weaknesses as well that can make them hard to play.
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Personally, I don't actually think a low-level flying race is as unbalancing as people make it out to be. But admittedly, I tend to use more humanoids in my campaigns, so it's easier to explain why some of them have bows and guns. Also, I make use of weather rules and "aerial terrain". Had a strix player that got tangled up in a canopy once. With an assassin vine in it. That was fun :)
But, I'm admittedly more of a simulationist when it comes to environment stuff like that.
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Personally, I don't actually think a low-level flying race is as unbalancing as people make it out to be.
I agree. But even if you think low-level flying is unbalanced, that doesn't mean winged PC races aren't possible.