Specifically I am curious how much the phalanx fighter 3 ability (polearm in one hand) or Titan Mauler's Jotun Grip (any 2h wep in one hand) would be priced if given in a magic item, like a glove.
Those abilities replace Uncanny Dodge and Armor training, respectively, in their respective archetypes.
Any precedent items?
Armour training shouldn't exist as an armour feature for magic atmour you wpuld quickly see it the must have enhancement. As for uncanny dodge the game already has fortification.
Robe of Eyes grants Uncanny Dodge, along with some other abilities.
Quick eyeball estimate, remove the 120' Darkvision (20k gp, if the Darklands Goggles are anything to go by), and you still have a 100k item.
It also has a Constant See Invisibility effect, which would come out to...
Spell level (2) x Caster Level (3) x2k gold =12k.
Then it has +10 to Perception, which is another 10k gp.
So you're down to 78k for just Uncanny Dodge...which seems a mite excessive, honestly.
Lessee...looking at spell effects, it's similar to a constant Foresight (9th level spell) effect.
So, spell level (9) x caster level (17) x 2k gold = 306k...yeah no. Not helpful there either.
Armor Training 1 is slightly easier to price. Comfort armor is 5k, and reduces ACP by 1. Assume increasing max Dex bonus by 1 is of a similar price. So 10k.
However, both Jotungrip and Phalanx Fighter's ability are better than either of the abilities they replace. I would say a fair price is somewhere between 15 and 20k. Probably takes the Gloves slot.
Comfort armor does not grant you the ability to move in full speed. If you want to do that, you will have to get mithral armor.
But if you looking for creating an item just to have the Armor Training class feat, I don't think it should be possible. I mean fighter isn't the best already, if you let other class take it's most powerful class feat as well, it's really not fair for the fighter.
Sash of the war champion (Fighter, +4 L for armor training and bravery)
4,000 gp
But sash of the war champion does not grant armor training. You have to have the ability before adding to it. That was cleared up in another thread with a mention from the devs. Granting a class ability is one of those gray areas where you have to hammer out the details with your gm if your gm will allow it.
haruhiko88 and I read the description of that magical item differently.
If a Players Fighter level is 0, then for the purpose of this item, it is treated as level 4 - thus qualifying for Bravery 1 and Armor Training 1.
Not true, a paladin does not have a caster level before hitting level 4, therefore the trait magical knack cannot increase their caster level before that, same thing. Having no levels in fighter is like a big N/A not a 0.
You're trying to compare apples to oranges. Sash of the war champion grants an untyped bonus.
Untyped or not you do not have fighter levels before that just like a paladin with an orange ioun stone before lvl4 cannot use spell trigger or completion items despite the ioun stone granting a +1 CL.
You're trying to compare apples to oranges. Sash of the war champion grants an untyped bonus.
Since Sash of war Champion function as Rope of Arcane Heritage, and Rope of Arcane Heritage does not work if you have no sorcerer level. You may not gain any bonus from Sash of War Champion.
The reason for above is one, it is unfair for one item to grant a class feature and the other one that does the same thing can't. Two, it is unfair for fighter class as it will be almost impossible to go full fight at late level since spell caster will always be more powerful. So to assist those "babysitter" who helped the spell casters, Sash of War Champion now allow them to multi-class without losing too much benefit. Three, fighter is not a very special nor powerful class compare to others, it would be unbalance to allow their class feature being granted to other class with just an item. Taking away the reason why players want to take fighter instead of barbarian.
Also, some may argue the Monk's Robe allow players to have unarmed damage and ac as a level 5 monk. But it is because it said so.
The other reason of use design is because everyone has unarmed attack and ac. You can not make it a requirement since everyone has it.
Finally, if Sash of War Champion is allow to grant use feature. Then the orange Ioun Stone should also grant a non spell caster a caster level in a spell casting class of their choice because it doesn't say it requires a character with an existing caster level like other items did.
Paladin: Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level – 3.
A person without caster levels can not cast spells.
But the orange ioun stone grant the owner + 1 caster level. So with your logic, it should.
Also,
Sash of the War Champion
"The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features."
If the wearer has no fighter level, how do you treats "his fighter level" as 4 level higher than normal when "his fighter level" does not exist in the first place anyway?
Like ways to "+1 caster level", but they caster level would make more sense than Sash of the War Champion since it doesn't say anything else except just +1 caster level.
*rolls eyes* OP, please ignore this part of the thread - this is terribly off topic.
Reread core rules. Caster level does not grant the ability to cast spells. Caster level increases power of spells when they are cast. Cure light wounds d8 + caster level (max 5).
Robes of Arcane Heritage grant an untyped bonus to all classes who don the item. This bonus increases characters sorcerer level for the purpose of bloodline powers. Players without sorcerer levels will get an untyped bonus for this feature. Players will not be granted bloodlines, because the item does not grant bloodlines.
Sash of the Champion grants Bravery and Armor Training. It does not grant modifiers to those abilities.
Sash of the Champion will not grant Bravery and Armor Training even if it does not grant modifiers to those abilities because it still allow other class to move in full speed while in medium armor. Therefore, class feature stealing. And worse, fighter's class feature stealing.
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Robes of Arcane Heritage grant an untyped bonus to all classes who don the item. This bonus increases characters sorcerer level for the purpose of bloodline powers. Players without sorcerer levels will get an untyped bonus for this feature. Players will not be granted bloodlines, because the item does not grant bloodlines.
The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects.
Meanwhile, the Sash of the War Champion's benefit:
The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.
It increases your fighter level for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features, but said features will not be granted, because the item does not grant either of them. It's the exact same wording as the Robe of Arcane Heritage. If it were supposed to grant such features, it would need to be worded like the Monk's Robe.
If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the robe lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-Level monk (although she does not add her Wisdom bonus to her AC). This AC bonus functions just like the monk's AC bonus.
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Stealing class features shouldn't be done. Gold is cheap. Levels aren't, so make them pay
Now we got that sorted, let's get back to the topic.
Specifically I am curious how much the phalanx fighter 3 ability (polearm in one hand) or Titan Mauler's Jotun Grip (any 2h wep in one hand) would be priced if given in a magic item, like a glove.
Those abilities replace Uncanny Dodge and Armor training, respectively, in their respective archetypes.
Any precedent items?
Like what I said above in the off topic part, it would be unbalance to gain a class feature from an item, so it would be no for phalanx fighter's ability and Jotungrip as well as armor training.
At best, you can achieve something similar to Uncanny Dodge with a robe of eyes. But it will be costly and have drawbacks. Likewise as using enlarge person to achieve Jotungrip.
One of the reason why spell casters are powerful is because their spells can eventually achieve almost what every other classes can. So you see what spell suits you the best for you to achieve what you after.
Thanks for all the input, I will take it to heart. Seems like there is really no science to this and it is more of an art.
Robe of Eyes grants Uncanny Dodge, along with some other abilities.
Quick eyeball estimate, remove the 120' Darkvision (20k gp, if the Darklands Goggles are anything to go by), and you still have a 100k item.
It also has a Constant See Invisibility effect, which would come out to...
Spell level (2) x Caster Level (3) x2k gold =12k.
Then it has +10 to Perception, which is another 10k gp.
So you're down to 78k for just Uncanny Dodge...which seems a mite excessive, honestly.
Not as excessive as you think. Let's try the math again on this example, with a few corrections.
Robe of Eyes (120,000 GP) grants:
Now to find what costs to remove.
This would make the combination of Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge worth 60,000 GP. Split the cost 50/50, and Uncanny Dodge would be worth 30,000 GP. Just keep in mind that this price is for the specific benefit of Uncanny Dodge, not the class feature itself.
The general answer is don't make items that replicate class features. When everyone has access to certain class features like Uncanny Dodge, or Evasion through magical items it devalues the class feature if favor of gold (which is "cheaper" than class levels). Some items already exist that give away class features, while I am not a fan of these I don't remove them. But, adding more is a bad idea that I think is unfair.
Specifically I am curious how much the phalanx fighter 3 ability (polearm in one hand) or Titan Mauler's Jotun Grip (any 2h wep in one hand) would be priced if given in a magic item, like a glove.
Those abilities replace Uncanny Dodge and Armor training, respectively, in their respective archetypes.
Something to keep in mind is that substitutions aren't necessarily equitable with the individual abilities they replace. For any ability that doesn't already have a magic item, creating one presents challenges unique to that ability. The more rare an ability (i.e. the less classes that normally get it), the more it would be likely to cost. (Uncanny Dodge and Evasion are both available to multiple classes. Rings of Evasion cost 25K GP each, and I already gave the breakdown for a Robe of Eyes.)
Any ability that provides stacking numeric bonuses (i.e. bonuses that will stack with other magic items) would need to come at a high cost; otherwise it would undermine the pricing of existing magic items. Essentially such items must be priced based on a highest-value scenario. (And at that price point, no one else would want to buy them.) For any class ability that scales with class levels, the only recourse for a magic item would be to augment existing class levels (as the Monk's Robes previously mentioned by SiuoL).
On the specific subject of the Jotun Grip / Phalanx Fighter ability (wielding a 2H weapon in one hand), let's see what we can do. I've read up a bit about it (in the last hour). For a medium (or small) creature, Jotun Grip would add 2-3 points of damage bonus (ex: 1d8 longsword vs 2d6 greatsword) at a 2 point penalty to attack rolls. The 3rd edition feat Monkey Grip provided a similar benefit, and either Power Attack or Two-Weapon Fighting will provide comparable bonuses. Phalanx Fighter adds to AC (+4 or Cover with Tower Shield), rather than damage, because they are obligated to use a shield in their off hand.
Between these options, Phalanx Fighter seems like the bigger boon, and it doesn't come with a penalty, so we should price based on that. There are several types of stacking armor bonuses, so we'll price based on the most expensive one.
2000 GP x 4 AC x 4 AC = 32,000 GP
Honestly if a player is willing to pay that much for it, I would give it to them. But that's just my opinion.
One last thing, and this is important. If the PCs can do it, the NPCs can do it.
