Goblin Squad Member
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The first option was "train" 2 of the possibilities for your deity and then the other domain training greys out. That's full of holes. Hypothetical b. train any domains you want but "slot" 2 at a time that are appropriate to your deity is the closest to TT I can think of to keep the dedication bonus.
I'm also curious about what the overlap of paladin/ranger training and full cleric is going to look like.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of a blank slate mostly. All the trappings of a character acquired via gameplay as much as possible. I know people see a two-way street of character affect the world as much as the world affects the character. But I think doing is more important than the philosophy of being (the trap is set...)?He may show up with an alias called 'Doing' now.
Aristotle was big on "doing", but that was being first to the punch (and playing dirty!). But I think for games it's even more important: I respect character bios and people have knowledge of pathfinder they wish to use in character creation, which I don't. But for me, I like the idea of earning a Deity's favour by doing in-game stuff and then being a disciple of eg Pharasma by that virtue of game discovery which should be like throwing a pebble into a pond and the ripples of cause and effect on the game world occuring.
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Goblin Squad Member
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dedication bonus is based on what skills you slot, not what you have trained.
So if you are a 20/20 fighter/cleric but you only slot cleric skills you get the cleric dedication bonus.
As for domains, I say only allow two active domains at a time. Only allow domains to be used that are aligned for whatever deity the cleric worships. i think in this case that PfO might have to step away from the IP and should force clerics to pick a deity and remain within the alignment. So if you pick a LG deity and your domans are Good and Luck. If your alignment shifts to LN you cant use the Good domain but you can still use the luck domain. You can change deities but that requires that your alignment must match the new deity and you must get an atonement from a cleric of that deity. At that point you couldnt slot domains that the new deity doesnt have, but then you gain access to new ones.
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Goblin Squad Member
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dedication bonus is based on what skills you slot, not what you have trained.
Right. And we just cleared up that is what I meant a post above yours. Pretty familiar with dedication bonuses. They are the product of a discussion I started.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, even for clerics the Deities allow for alignment flexibility.
Iomedae
(Deity)
Titles The Inheritor
Light of the Sword
Lady of Valor
Adjective Iomedaean
Home Iomedae's Domain, Heaven
Alignment Lawful good
Portfolio Valor
Rulership
Justice
Honor
Worshipers Paladins, knights, warriors
Cleric Alignments
LG NG
LN
Domains Glory, Good, Law, Sun, War
Subdomains Archon, Day, Heroism, Honor, (Judgment), Light, (Redemption), (Revelation), Tactics
Favored Weapon longsword
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of a blank slate mostly. All the trappings of a character acquired via gameplay as much as possible. I know people see a two-way street of character affect the world as much as the world affects the character. But I think doing is more important than the philosophy of being (the trap is set...)?He may show up with an alias called 'Doing' now.
Doing requires first being. If your are not, you can not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Doing requires first being. If your are not, you can not.I like the idea of a blank slate mostly. All the trappings of a character acquired via gameplay as much as possible. I know people see a two-way street of character affect the world as much as the world affects the character. But I think doing is more important than the philosophy of being (the trap is set...)?He may show up with an alias called 'Doing' now.
I'll tell that to the next newborn universe I see.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Coming back to this and connecting recent conversations on death-penalty, there's a very significant role for Pharasma here both lore and mechanics.
Death is just the beginning - discuss!
For eg if Paladins turn out to be uber-LG, then they could have attacks which rub off some of the Mark Of Pharasma's full efficacy. A potent spiritual weapon indeed.
You want to be like the Spanish monks in Age of Empires 2?
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Goblin Squad Member
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LG-Iomedae
NG-Shelyn
CG-Desna
LN-Abadar
TN-Gozreh
CN-Gorum
LE-Asmodeus
NE-Norgorber
CE-Lamashtu
LG pretty much has to include Iomedae first, for the same reason LE has to include Asmodeus first. They're the powers associated with two of the NPC towns in our starting corner of the RK, so they'd be dominant in the area at least until players get into building. For Shelyn, I mostly think "who?" and have to go look her up. Desna and Cayden Cailean would both have been equally good choices for CG, but going with Desna means that the initial powers for Good are all goddesses.
Abadar is a great choice for PFO since trade, cities, and civilization in general are his thing, appropriate to an economy/settlement-building game. Gozreh is an odd choice for NN, though, since Pharasma is apparently responsible for making our PCs into 'un-mortals', Gozreh is a God/dess of the sea we're quite far from, and the druids which aren't even in EE are able to directly serve nature without any need of a personified power. Calistria would've been a decent choice for CN, but she's a bit like a less-fatal Loviatar and maybe GW isn't ready to euphemize their way around BDSM. Gorum fits PFO well as a war-god which seems inspired by Thor, but with less emphasis on hammer time.
Asmodeus is the patron of all Hellknights, but he's the most common one, and they're the foil for the Iomedaens. Norgorber seems to fit the assassination element of the game, and I'd guess Lamashtu takes the CE spot because she's the divine matron of goblins.
I hope they throw Calistra in, otherwise its Asmodeus, Norgorber, or Lamashtu for me.Zon-Kuthon would seem to fit as the more evil version of Calistria, just shifting from the borders pain/pleasure all the way into actual torture.
I don't see how you can leave both Caiden Cailean and Calistria out. Calistria can in fact be a problem due to ERp'ers but Caiden is one popular dude.
I'd switch in Sarenrae and Caiden at NG at CG and agree that Pharasma has to be the call at TN.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see how you can leave both Caiden Cailean and Calistria out. Calistria can in fact be a problem due to ERp'ers but Caiden is one popular dude.
I'd switch in Sarenrae and Caiden at NG at CG and agree that Pharasma has to be the call at TN.
Maybe they're avoiding Calistria and Cayden both right now because they represent types of 'adult content' that MPAA-style prudes would attack?
I haven't played Pathfinder but I can see how Gorum would be a popular CN deity. Even so, I think Hanspur should have a place in PFO because of the strong local ties. From what I read on the Wiki he's sort of the personification of the River Freedoms.
That one might be chalked up to the assumption that very few players are likely to know or care about the lore of the game, and an archetype similar to Thor or Crom is probably easier to explain than a relativly small and local river rat who tells his followers to murder people via drowning.
I think they'll iterate and add new deities to the list at some point, since that was one of the items offered on the priority list for the aborted Crowdforging poll a year ago. I suggested a poll letting us pick favourites would be great, but they haven't done any more polls and probably won't, at least until (or if) PFO gets its own forums which have some way to ensure that each pledge gets only one vote. Here on the Paizo boards, it's too easy to stuff the ballot box by creating extra accounts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was thinking "What motivation could a cleric have for going out and converting others to their faith?" The idea at present give no motivation beyond maybe some kind of stat buff, which is really weak, and being a way to screw over your enemies by making unhappy peasants.
Well I remembered that the plan advancement in classes beyond simply gaining XP over time is to require achievements to learn new skills/abilities. I then realized that locking cool stuff behind the requirement for players going out and converting populations is a great way to encourage that kind of behavior. It also possibly forces some interesting social dynamics. For example a dominant faith with a large population of both Clerics and NPC's would necessarily be more aggressive because there would be fewer places that young clerics could go out and convert npc's. This would likely literally drive holy wars all on its own. Smaller faiths would in turn have it much easier because they would have lots of targets to convert, but they may need to be careful because they are likely operating in enemy territory. This would likely create the small secretive cult style behavior.
Just a thought and idea, it also applies to well to other classes. Not only role playing, but conflict can be driven by making advancement contingent on specific kinds of behaviors.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I find interesting is the finite resource being "souls" of players and/or common folk and Clerics taking to a particular Deity that is incompatible with other Clerics' choices od Deities -> Competition -> Religious Economy and politics across the map obvous intra-conflict within alignments of different Deities and ultra-conclict across alignments.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is a system with a lot of potential for conflict, but it does need a driving force to get it moving. What kind of driving force do we want in the game. Is advancement contingent on expanding access to a finite resource an acceptable game dynamic?
Edit: While crusades/jihads are certainly a sensitive topic, I wouldn't rule them out as a possibility. I certainly think they are better than war just because.
It is kind of interesting how making cleric advancement contingent on conversion dramatically shifts the context of the whole game. Holy wars become a thing and a very major thing driving the direction of basically everything.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Being: We're talking about Deities deliberately sticking their oar into the the affairs of mere mortals (Clash of the Titans ' Golden Fleece style)!!
We're talking about forbidden rituals erupting a rift in the material plane for one's soldiers to attack the enemy deity
We're talking about making terrible pacts of blood with gibbering demons and devils... for forbidden powers*.
*please note I've been reading Arturo Perez-Reverte's "The Club Dumas" recently so sorta absorbed by this stuff atm!
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is a polytheistic system, and while clerics may often be henotheists or monolatrists who have a specific matron or patron deity, they do recognize that there are others, some of which are allies. In the ancient world, paying lip service and sacrifice of goods was a matter of civic duty. Roman emperors claimed to be descended from the gods, Egyptian pharaohs claimed to be incarnate gods, etc. Not going along with that was often seen as sedition.
On Golarion:
The numbers of believers and fervour of their worship may directly correlate to the divine power of a deity. That seems to be a common assumption in fantasy RPG settings. It doesn't necessarily line up so well for Golarion, since Aroden was a very popular deity with a powerful human empire that made him their patron, yet he somehow died. Also, there are specific domains that each deity covers, so the average person would likely have favourites within the pantheon that follow their needs and interests, but not exclusive worship. In cases where deities are strongly opposed, there may be some attempt by malevolent ones to corrupt followers of benevolent ones, and a desire to redeem people the other direction as well, but more often they just end up fighting.
Even in the real world where we've had 1000+ years of battling monotheisms in the West, people tended to kill those who didn't line up with their beliefs rather than convert them, and a lot of conversion-at-swordpoint in which a smaller, better armed force takes over an area and makes the existing inhabitants their serfs, the 'conversion' wasn't necessarily sincere until a couple generations of cultural domination had passed. That didn't really matter much as long as the commoners kept working. That's economically-motivated empire building, and even today, getting more tithes is a prime motivator for gathering and keeping a bigger flock. Look at the rise of megachurches and 'prosperity gospel' nonsense where people are encouraged to give up what little they have as 'seed' money. Foreign missionaries on the ground may mean well, but trips to Africa and South America couldn't operate at a loss for long.
There are religions that don't really try to convert people, at least in any organized fashion, but that's probably a major reason why they remain minority religions. When people drift into these more eclectic religions, it's often because they were dissatisfied with the dominant sects in their area, but still have the idea that metaphysical intelligences or afterlives are necessary.
On Golarion:
Divine powers are demonstrable from clergy across the pantheon, so the question isn't about whether miracles and souls exist, and since each deity has a different set of domains the question isn't even about who's the 'best' overall. People support the temples which support them and can be rallied to fight against the ones which are seen to oppose them. The most heavily-overlapped domains are the basic alignment ones, and each represents the core of a significantly different way of life. It's quite practical: it is in your best interests to 'convert' or eliminate those who are too reckless (Chaos), too controlling (Law), or who cause a lot of harm (Evil), or who stand in the way of your power (Good). If the clergy of different powers have traits in common and aren't too heavily opposed on those basics, they're better off counting one another as allies (or lackeys) than provoking them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Very informative Keovar. Lots to muse on there for a more considered reply.
I do like Game Of Thrones somewhat indifferent religions and diversity and how the people (of Westeros) aren't too sure either of their gods but worship them out of good form and just in case.
There's a funny scene in the movie The Mummy where a character clutches at different religious symbols around his neck when confronted by the mummy in hopes of one of them working!
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Goblin Squad Member
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If we really want to bring setting lore into this, the souls of the dead do in fact go to a specific deity after death. Thing means which god you favor does actually matter in Golarion and conversion is likely to be a thing that happens.
Which would be a motivation for redeeming/corrupting your opposition if you can, rather than the more expedient killing, but it still wouldn't make sense for the followers of Sarenrae and Desna to get in a serious conflict over whether sunlight or the night sky are more beautiful.
Also, why would the destination of souls necessarily translate to more power for the deity, unless the gods are consuming them or putting them to work?|
Goblin Squad Member
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It simply shows that the game world does in fact have a concept of a persons primary faith, it matters, and conversion is something likely to happen. It also suggests that if it matters in death it probably also matters in life.
As for does it fit certain deities? Certainly not, I'm simply talking about the religion being a deep and meaningful concept in game and having its own unique gameplay experience. My latest suggestion of linking advancement to conversion rates obviously takes this to far by basically forcing the game to be about holy wars. I certainly want religion to have its own gameplay and generate conflict, but I don't want it to generate that much conflict.
Right now I am somewhat enamored with the idea of linking character advancement with behaviors that generate conflict and role playing opportunities. What other kinds of religious behaviors might one add to the game that could generate conflict, but don't automatically force the game into a series of Holy Wars.
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Goblin Squad Member
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clerics need to be one step from the deity
characters need to be one step from the company
company needs to be one step from the settlement
So what limitations are there on what temples can be built by alignment?
Can Desna shrine be built in a POI of a LG settlement?
Gorum?
Will there be hidden temples or shrines contrary to the settlement alignment?
If I recall, the settlement controlling company decides what is built with DI, but will there be other ways to build things contrary to the 'spirit of the community (say in a mechanism like hideouts)?
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Hello all. Been lurking for a few weeks now, but this discussion prompted me to chime in.
There are excellent ideas presented here, but as Hark mentioned, alot what was brought up is probably out of scope for what they were planning.
At the very least, I hope that they require characters to have to seek out Player Characters who lead in a faith to join a particular religion rather than simply choosing a deity upon creation. This would promote basic religious interaction and roleplaying to start.
Perhaps the PC faith leaders will be allowed to keep track of their congregation (or cult) following, creating a religious subset to a settlement. It would allow for more roleplaying initially and could eventually evolve into conflict vehicles.
The idea of having accepted deities chosen by the settlement managers, faith leaders for those deities, and NPC conversion as mentioned above could make for interesting times.
I hope the devs get a chance to read this thread and are willing to start small, with an eye towards expanding faiths, conversion and ultimately more conflict.
After all, it's the deity/religious aspect of TT that's always given it its 'Cult' appeal. :)
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Most of the stuff I post about isn't the kind of thing you start with in EE. I post ideas for down the road to flesh out the experience and add depth once the core gameplay is established.
I want to keep people thinking of the game as more than just PVP and territory control with some PVE to change things up. Mostly because if that is all it is or ever will be I wasted my money on the kickstarter.
This thread is basically to ensure that religion isn't glaringly absent from the game like it is most games. Cleric and other religious classes as just another class is a totally unacceptable state, especially for a game with this much promise.
That said, the Goblin Works can't just stick new gameplay on top of an existing game and expect it to work. To properly integrate it the need to consider the possibilities and plan for them, leave places for them to interact with. So discussion now is still critical to effective implementation.
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It simply shows that the game world does in fact have a concept of a persons primary faith, it matters, and conversion is something likely to happen. It also suggests that if it matters in death it probably also matters in life.
As for does it fit certain deities? Certainly not, I'm simply talking about the religion being a deep and meaningful concept in game and having its own unique gameplay experience. My latest suggestion of linking advancement to conversion rates obviously takes this to far by basically forcing the game to be about holy wars. I certainly want religion to have its own gameplay and generate conflict, but I don't want it to generate that much conflict.
Right now I am somewhat enamored with the idea of linking character advancement with behaviors that generate conflict and role playing opportunities. What other kinds of religious behaviors might one add to the game that could generate conflict, but don't automatically force the game into a series of Holy Wars.
This will of course be controversial, but the following is my take on information gathered from various books about the development of religions, particularly works by Joseph Campbell & Karen Armstrong.
~YHWH Tzevaot (Yahweh Sabaoth), it appears, was originally a war god of a larger pantheon. Later alterations of some stories have tried to cover this, but not always completely. This puts things like the details of blood sacrifice, genocidal conquests, and jealousy of other gods into a sensible context. During times of peace, people focused on fertility gods of the pantheon like Asherah or Ba'al, but sitting in the middle of large civilizations like Egypt and Babylon, war would always come again. When it did, the priests of Yahweh would claim their patron was punishing everyone for failing to serve him properly, and they eventually took over the culture, probably around the time Deuteronomy was written. This war vs. fertility dissonance may also be why the religions descended from the Yahweh-ists consider just about everything related to sex to be 'sinful', unless it has the potential to produce future soldiers whose paternity is validated by the priests. Even cutting off portions of a baby's fertility bits looks less random when considered as a symbolic human sacrifice and permanent reminder of to whom they belong.
~
Anyway, the point is that our modern ideas of how religion fits into people's lives are still coloured by old assumptions, but if you're considering a world that doesn't look at life the same way, those assumptions are often inappropriate.
So, unless we're talking about a deity of battle, focusing on conflict doesn't really fit. There is a pantheon of powers in Golarion who each represent concepts, activities, and events which are part of everyday life. We should bring them into follower's lives in ways appropriate to the power in question, rather than looking at everything through the lens of battling monotheisms.
Also, 'conversion' rates are problematic because there would likely be people who sell their divine allegiance or even create dummy characters specifically for that purpose. Trying to measure what a character believes in religious terms is about like trying to measure motives in alignment terms. Further, in the context of a world with demonstrable evidence of divine powers and 'religion' being integrated within aspects of everyday life, belief may not even be a coherent question. Actions & economic choices, however, are both relevant & measurable.
The idea of buying cures in a temple is as old as clerical classes within fantasy roleplaying games, but that same model can be used to integrate other divine domains into people's everyday lives.
For example:
A merchant who is about to set out with a caravan may make a small sacrifice to Cayden for travel and Abadar for wealth. This could mean buying a round of beers for other travellers at the local tavern/temple, or just putting a few coins in a 'spiritual investment' box at the bank/temple, and getting blessed by the priests. Perhaps the blessings would give the merchant a sort of clickable buff that can wait there inactive for a few days until used. When used, the blessing buff could help the merchant complete the trip a little more safely, quickly, or profitably. The clergy, for their part, need to develop their facilities to make these services possible, and encourage people to begin or continue using them. The money or goods spent/donated to their temples supports the further development of the clergy, temple, and services offered.
I am really not happy that Sarenrae is not on this list. Not in the least. Now if I pick a cleric or fighter cleric am I forced to choose a god I don't want to pick?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Greetings Friends,
Do you have doubts about the afterlife? Are you afraid of what torments may await your soul in the abyss? Have you heard the good word of Urgathoa? The Pallid Princess can save you from those fears. Why travel onto your next life when you can stay here, forever. Many gods claim to have your back. Urgathoa on the other hand, will bring you back.
Fine Print
*Malik is not responsible for what manner of being Urgathoa returns you as. Side effect from animate dead may include listlessness, moaning, skin loss, insatiable hunger, grave dwelling, sunlight weakness, stench, mindlessness, and bloating. Please consult a cleric of Urgathoa before undergoing any undead transformation.*
