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Keep in mind the 5th horseman, the first one, utters things that even frighten horseman of the apocalypse. I'm sure a few secrets have been uttered along the way that have helped ensure some sort of continued existence.
As far as everyone ganging up on the daemons only Rovagug every got that honor and he's not even dead. The demons are too concerned about infighting. Devils are all about their long term schemes. If it ever become a prudent thing for them to do it would probably be done. The empyreal lords are more concerned about multiverse huge events. A single race whose members individually and occasionally cause havoc on the material plane doesn't fit the bill.
Keep in mind that daemons are the souls of particularly vile mortals alone. There is no corrupting influence of the abyss on them. No weird damnation by hell created them. They're literally the refuse of creation. In a way, that lets them slip past a few cracks and be largely unnoticed as their souls never were consigned to another fate. They're literally all mortals who just wanted to watch the world burn. No one helped them do it. They were the people who killed kids for fun and the like and not because some demon corrupted them into it or as part of some bargain with a devil for power/wealth/fame.
They're the bastards of the cosmos.
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They're not actually on that bad of terms with Devils and In the Midnight Isles the Thanadaemon actually patrol Nocticula's city's waterways.
Also note that although the Four are demigods, on par with Demon Lords, that there is a lot of stretch in that term. Case in point being that while the Four are "comparable" to Demon Lords it's pretty safe to say they're vastly more powerful than most of the Demon Lords.
I may be wrong on this but I believe it is just Lamashtu that is currently "at war" with them. And she of all creatures would know of the dangers of attacking creatures of "only" Demigod power.
Even Lamashtu eventually called off that war
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I'm pretty sure they are still around because the whole cosmos is in a cold-war state. No one really knows who would come out on top once conflict starts.
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While I don't disagree that they're at a disadvantage in a lot of ways, I'll note that they do have two gods in their corner: Urgathoa and Zyphus. They specifically don't mess with souls that are going to those two and let them have a large chunk of Abaddon so that there's a couple daemon-friendly gods around to discourage large-scale attacks on Abaddon.
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Why do the daemons still exist? Why do the devils still exist? They seek to enslave and corrupt all of existance. Why do the demons still exist, who enjoy destruction and chaos? Or for that matter, the Qlippoth? Because they aren't a problem. Yet.
It's quite possible that one day, they may be destroyed. Although considering their nature, I don't find that likely. Also keep in mind that they are neutral evil. So, while the devils are beholden to their order and law, and the demons are slaves to their destructive desires, daemons are adaptable. They can use any tactic, any strategy, with little to no issue. They could be considered 'Pragmatic Evil', instead of 'Netural Evil'.
Another take on it is that they're almighty janitors of the Pathfinder Universe. If I remember correctly, Charon has outright stated to Pharasma 'You know how this will end.' It was after this that she opened the portal to Abaddon for souls to be judged. Maybe they're simply the last ones out of the universe. The creatures that will stack the chairs, turn out the lights, and lock the doors, if you will. As long as there are mortals to make them, they will exist.
Your mileage may vary, of course, but the daemons are my favorite kind of fiend.
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Well that's simply a case of rules vs. stories. There's a lot of space in that 26 - 30 CR. Paizo had to set a roof so they did. That doesn't make a CR 30 any less intimidating, espicially since the rules for those creatures starts to veer off into "do whatever the F*** I want, try and stop me" territory.
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They won't ever go away for the same reason demons will never go away. There will always be corrupt souls in the universe to replenish their numbers.
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I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I've realised that, going off of what's presented in the Books of the Damned, the daemons should have been wiped out a long time ago. Here's why:
First of all, everybody wants them dead. The demons, the devils, the empyreal lords, pretty much every body wants the daemons gone. Now, that in and of itself wouldn't necessarily damn the species to extinction (we could say similar things about the demons after all) but it will be important once we examine point two.
Secondly, and more importantly, the daemons are the weakest faction of the various archfiends. Think about it--according to their own faction book, each of the Horsemen is about en paar with a demon lord, archdevil, or empyreal lord. Each harbinger is of similar power to a nascent demon lord or infernal duke. This means there's a massive power disparity. There are eight archdevils, not counting Asmodeus (a god). There are countless demon lords, not counting Lamashtu (a god). There are many, many empyreal lords, not counting Sarenrae (again, a god). There are only four archdaemons, and they don't have a god in their corner (at least not since the Oinodaemon was bound).
With that in mind, how am I supposed to believe that Abbadon was able to resist Lamashtu's invasion, or any of the other incursions they've suffered. The daemons are so much weaker in terms of the power they have available to them, that there's no believable way they could have lasted this long. They are outnumbered and outgunned by Heaven, Hell, and the Abyss.
While we're on the subject, why was it decided that the daemons should be so much weaker? I get that the Horsemen of the Apocalypse theme is cool, but only four archdaemons? In all of Abbadon there's only four daemons who can stand up to a demon lord, archdevil, or empyreal lord? I find that hard to believe. It seems silly to make one faction so much lesser than the rest.
When I run a campaign, I'm going to have to alter the rules somewhat. I'll likely make the Four...
It's all a ruse, put on by the yugoloths. It's their greatest peel ever, to make everyone believe they don't exist (in Pathfinder). Daemons are just their servitors...
Ah, you're mixing rules with setting. The setting is there to provide stories. It should exist with the rules but the rules don't dictate directly what is or isn't in the setting. Also, the things in the settings books are not rules. They're not even objectively true. There are a couple different creation myths across all the setting material. They all can't be true. They're often written from the perspective of the thing they're about. If you read a book about elves you'll get an elven perspective on things. They're player guides and GM guides to help get you in the mindset of a particular thing. That's about it.
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They won't ever go away for the same reason demons will never go away. There will always be corrupt souls in the universe to replenish their numbers.Well, they are described as being pretty much the only outsiders who regularly oppose Nosoi. So, a better question is why Pharasma doesn't shift more NE people to the abyss or the nine hells...
Because that's not where they're supposed to go. Pharasma is very good at her job and has done it for countless millennia. If she started picking and choosing where souls go herself that would upset a lot of powers that are. Part of the reason all gods are on an even keel with her is she honors the compacts each of them make for a particular soul no matter how distasteful she finds the destination. If one faction or another got favored treatment, as it were, for "wildcard" souls that would shift the balance of power among the planes.
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Even if demon lords outnumber the Horseman 10:1, that's not an overwhelming enough advantage to make it a cheap victory. Plus, with their expansive control of the soul trade, the first thing that happens when you attack the daemons is that it's very expensive.
I was thinking about what kind of person embodies the daemon mindset. Have you seen the cartoon, Crisis on Two Earths? Batman's counterpart is Owlman. He's been so profoundly disturbed by the arbitrariness of free will that he's decided to destroy the universe. Although an integral part of the Crime Syndicate, he has no meaningful loyalty to anyone. He's not erratic, but his quest, although methodical, has no really logical end. He just wants everyone and everything to die.
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I do subscribe to the that there only being 4 of them then they must be vastly more powerful than the other Demigods. And aside from Charon being the first Horsemen of Death and being one of the oldest beings in existence, the only thing else to put forward for their power is simply that, that there is only 4 of them and despite what they do they are still in existence and a legimate threat towards pretty much everybody else.
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Also keep in mind that we don't know how powerful the fifth horseman is. In fact, we barely know anything about it. It could very well be sufficiently powerful to overpower the entire menagerie of deities all on its own. If that's the case, I would assume Lamashtu called off her war with them due to having discovered that creature's true nature. What we do have is information that leads us to believe the fifth horseman is considerably more powerful than the other four--presumably, at the very least, around the level of a major deity. Just droplets of its blood alone is sufficient to create some of the most powerful daemonic servitors in the game.
I imagine the four horsemen would set that thing loose if it seemed like the plane of Abaddon was going to be taken by the forces of hell or the abyss.
Keep in mind, the second lets say, the demon lords make a push on the daemons, they leave themselves open to attack from their enemies. When most of these things play the game, they wait for someone to overreach themselves badly and make themselves vulnerable.
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If you're talking logistics, I think their trump card is that there is only 4 of them. Demonkind is split into many, many factions. None of them are aligned with another long. Devils don't have this problem as much but they can't sacrifice their other schemes either. Likewise, the empyreal lords focus on things of larger scale than the daemons. As a whole they're a threat but the vast majority keep to their own corner of the multiverse. That isn't a problem.
Having said that, with just 4 of them they can unify an entire realm of existence in a staggeringly efficient manner unseen in most others. Well defended positions can defeat superior numbers without much effort.
Now, if Asmodeus were to lead a full assault on them, then I think they'd be toast. You could turn that into a campaign!
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That might deter someone good aligned. A demon probably isn't going to care about the cost of victory (and we know for a fact that Lamashtu didn't care about the price).
Actually, Lamashtu probably did, given that she had to pull out. The price became too steep.
The thing about fiends attacking other fiends can be summed up by looking at just demons.
Now, all demons hate each other. That's just a fact. They're jackasses. So, logically, two demon lords (A and B) could gang up and take down a third (C)--I mean, if they hate him, why not?
Why not? Well, then they've opened themselves up to attacks from their other enemies. Plus, C might be able to bring in help. To make matters worse, there's the chance they'll betray each other. It's just not practical.
Demon lords have that problem internally. On a larger scale, so do the different types of fiend. Devils attacking daemons? Demons move in. Demons attacking devils? Empyrael Lords show up and start wreaking havoc. Daemons may be seemingly weaker, but they're expensive and tedious enough that it's just not worth it--just like it's not worth it for demons to fight each other.
The fact that demons do it anyways is a very good reason why they haven't taken over the multiverse yet.
So why did Lamashtu lose? Well, daemons are better organized, obviously. Another important point is that the daemons know the terrain. Home turf advantage easily makes up for a little power disparity. Finally, daemons' control of the soul trade might have made Lamashtu's invasion so expensive she just couldn't afford to keep it going.
A key thing about daemons is that they're patient. A key thing about Lamashtu is that she ain't. Putting aside that strategic disadvantage, maybe she just got sick of a boring war and decided to call it quits and go home.
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Now, if Asmodeus were to lead a full assault on them, then I think they'd be toast. You could turn that into a campaign!
I'm inclined to agree based on current information that we can confirm. The big if still comes in the form of the fifth horseman. The only thing we know is that it's powerful enough to scare the other horsemen, and they evidently don't even fear major deities.
HERE I PRESENT THE ULTIMATE POWER OF THE FIFTH HORSEMAN OF THE APOCALYPSE! LOOK UPON THAT WHICH ALL BEINGS, BOTH MORTAL AND GOD, FEAR ABOVE ALL!
http://funatzoo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Asked-for-a-pony.jpg
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i'm not clicking that link
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The daemons are like evil Switzerland. You'd like to add them to your evil empire, and they're smaller than you, but they're well-defended, rich, and they have the phone numbers of all your frenemies on speed dial. Plus, mountains.
i'm not clicking that link
spoilsport *frowns slightly and sulks in corner*
i'm not clicking that linkspoilsport *frowns slightly and sulks in corner*
You changed the link. Still not clicking :p
You changed the link. Still not clicking :pi'm not clicking that linkspoilsport *frowns slightly and sulks in corner*
TO BE FAIR, i changed the link BEFORE i read you're post. I found a better picture.
The daemons are like evil Switzerland. You'd like to add them to your evil empire, and they're smaller than you, but they're well-defended, rich, and they have the phone numbers of all your frenemies on speed dial. Plus, mountains.And everyone there has military experience + guns.
Guns in the form of 3/day quickened disintegrate.
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Guns in the form of 3/day quickened disintegrate.The daemons are like evil Switzerland. You'd like to add them to your evil empire, and they're smaller than you, but they're well-defended, rich, and they have the phone numbers of all your frenemies on speed dial. Plus, mountains.And everyone there has military experience + guns.
Oh, and everybody gives you diseases. Lots of diseases. All of the diseases, forever.
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That might deter someone good aligned. A demon probably isn't going to care about the cost of victory (and we know for a fact that Lamashtu didn't care about the price).
Actually, Lamashtu probably did, given that she had to pull out. The price became too steep.
The thing about fiends attacking other fiends can be summed up by looking at just demons.
Now, all demons hate each other. That's just a fact. They're jackasses. So, logically, two demon lords (A and B) could gang up and take down a third (C)--I mean, if they hate him, why not?
Why not? Well, then they've opened themselves up to attacks from their other enemies. Plus, C might be able to bring in help. To make matters worse, there's the chance they'll betray each other. It's just not practical.
Demon lords have that problem internally. On a larger scale, so do the different types of fiend. Devils attacking daemons? Demons move in. Demons attacking devils? Empyrael Lords show up and start wreaking havoc. Daemons may be seemingly weaker, but they're expensive and tedious enough that it's just not worth it--just like it's not worth it for demons to fight each other.
The fact that demons do it anyways is a very good reason why they haven't taken over the multiverse yet.
So why did Lamashtu lose? Well, daemons are better organized, obviously. Another important point is that the daemons know the terrain. Home turf advantage easily makes up for a little power disparity. Finally, daemons' control of the soul trade might have made Lamashtu's invasion so expensive she just couldn't afford to keep it going.
A key thing about daemons is that they're patient. A key thing about Lamashtu is that she ain't. Putting aside that strategic disadvantage, maybe she just got sick of a boring war and decided to call it quits and go home.
very well said, I just had the bit about the soul trade then I went and read some of the other posts and this one just takes the (probably evil) cake
you are all also assuming that just because WE know how many demon lords, daemon lords, etc there are.. they each faction knows.
Daemons are notorious for deception..
Even assuming you as an enemy to daemons knows there are 4 horsemen, and havent heard of any others, do you risk starting another war to wipe them out, risking a counterattack from another faction in the midst of what could be a costly mistake?
If you were to attack the daemons, and found out they had 100 more lords in hiding and they all surface... then an opposing faction moves in to attack from behind, because the daemons made a deal, how dead are you?
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So I was doing a little reading through my collection of ungodly old books and happened upon information on Anthraxus, the once and again oinoloth (see: oinodaemon). That thing dwarfs Lamasthu in power to the point that it's fricking absurd. If we assume Pathfinder's oinodaemon is as powerful as Anthraxus, there's absolutely no contest there. That thing by itself could tear through the entire abyss like it was its job, destroying each and every demon lord it ran across with little to no difficult; yes, even if they were to attack all at once.
If that thing chained up at the heart of Abaddon is a Pathfinder analog to Anthraxus then uh... I think I know why Lamasthu called off her war. Pretty sure having an entire plane of existence disappear might be a bit of a problem. Worse still, it's the kind of problem that various Empyreal Lords, demons, and the forces of hell all aligning together for this unfathomable reason still most likely could not stop. And if they did? Ye olde Oinoloth/Oinodaemon, Anthraxus, isn't actually capable of being permanently killed. At all. By anything. Period.
Also note that there are rumours that Charon, the oldest and only original horseman might be a tad hard to get rid of: He is supposed to be the river Styx, which runs through Abaddon but also touches Axis, Hell and the Maelstrom.
As for Lamashtu, she has many enemies, especially among the other demons (Pazuzu comes to mind) those demons might actually be interested in keeping the daemons around so Lamashtu can't focus on a single thing to eliminate but has to divide her attention.
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Charon is the river Styx, but also the Boatman that ferries souls; a representative conduit for souls.
Pharasma is the conductor of souls along a great spiral to their final destinations.
This means they're doing very similar jobs. They're also on speaking terms and partially neutral in alignment. Maybe they have an office romance?
"So, Phasy-honey, I heard talk of a potential war coming my way. The guys, y'know, the Horsemen? Well, they're all like 'bring it!' but, y'know, it's gonna like, break stuff n' junk. Plus, you know how this is gonna end. So could you like, do somethin about or whatever?" *doffs hat to brush hipster hair from his dead eyesockets*
"Oh Cha-Cha, you know I can't say no to your puppy-dog exposed sinus cavity! Hang on, I'll divine over it" *Mother of Fate pulls Ultimate Cell Phone and begins texting* "Handled. That b*$&h s(*^t Lamashtu was all like 'I'm gonna TOTS wail!' and I was like 'Oh no you d'int just threaten my man's realm' and then she was like 'whatev's' and then she quit. Now let's go make out on your boat!"
I'd imagine that's basically been slowly playing out over about a billion years, but you get the gist.
Because they aren't a problem.
It seems the setting books think they are a big problem to a number of stronger rivals.
For those getting confused by what the fluff and the "crunch" I would like to point out that Cthulhu, the that is supposed to be able to end planets and all sorts of other horrid things, is a CR 30...
Daemons are infinite in number, just like demons. Their numbers are constantly replenished from across the multiverse.
The 4 Horsemen control ALL DAEMONS.
Lamashtu controls a small portion of the demons in the Abyss.
Slaughtering daemons just opens up paths to power for lower daemons, who get ramped up as their betters die. All invading the Wastes does is temporarily reduce the number of lower level daemons, get a lot of them promoted early, and let them focus their attentions on the invaders instead of mortal souls and one another.
Hell has better things to do then try to control the pragmatically duplicitous and untrustworthy daemons who simply want to see them all dead, too.
What the Abyss had was a huge build up of larval souls that spontaneously got converted in demonkind, creating a huge mass of them. However, incoming new demonic souls are accumulated no faster then any other alignment, and so erosion over time is going to wear the numbers of demons, who infight enthusiastically, down to lesser power, even if they started from a much higher base.
Also keep in mind there are gods in the Wastes who might not like divine invaders, either.
==Aelryinth