Wait, didn't you drop Dervish Dance because of the feats? And now you're trying to figure out what to do with another feat?
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Wait, didn't you drop Dervish Dance because of the feats? And now you're trying to figure out what to do with another feat?
Yes. I have one feat slot left (not two), and multiple options vying for the spot that I couldn't even consider if I'd already had to spend it on DDance.
I would probably do:
HD1: Toughness
Ftr1: Weapon Focus (scimitar)
HD3: Power Attack
EK1: Iron Will
HD5: Arcane Strike
HD7: Improved Iron Will
EK5: Weapon Spec (scimitar)
HD9: Improved Critical (scimitar)
HD11: Quicken Spell
I like the trait Clever Wordplay.
I believe there is also a similar one for UMD, but I don't remember the name.
I don't think you will find the +1 from dodge worth while for very long (if ever). If your concealments don't work, you're just going to get hit. But Improved Iron Will is often wondrous.
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I like the trait Clever Wordplay.
I believe there is also a similar one for UMD, but I don't remember the name.
It's Pragmatic Activator, but it's a Magic Trait, so I can't have it alongside Magical Knack. :(
I don't think you will find the +1 from dodge worth while for very long (if ever). If your concealments don't work, you're just going to get hit. But Improved Iron Will is often wondrous.
I was thinking to help hold me over until I have my illusions. But you might be right.
I like Iron Will, but I'm not sold on Improved.
I like Iron Will, but I'm not sold on Improved.
If you don't need a bonded item, a hedgehog familiar will get you +2 to Will saves.
I suppose you could retrain dodge to iron will. But I hate the thought of spending the PP for that.
...
I like Iron Will, but I'm not sold on Improved.
I am finding that about 1/2 the sessions, I really wish I had a re-roll (folio's are still sold out) and it is usually for a failed will save.
I have some ideas in mind...
What would you want to play most? Tiefling or human?
Ok, I'll post a few concepts/builds later today (when I will be able to sit down at last!).
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Ok, I'll post a few concepts/builds later today (when I will be able to sit down at last!).
Concept needs to be an unarmored sword-wielder who uses the wizard spell list and gets 3rd-level spells no later than 7th level and has higher than 3/4 BAB.
Within that, I'm curious what you have in mind! :)
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Just as info, Warpriests are proficient in all Marital weapons; and treat any weapon they have weapon focus in + their diety's favorite weapon with full BAB. Their levels also count as Fighter for feat purposes (all of the Advanced class count as both of their base classes for feats).
Also, Swashbuckler gets Weapon Finessee for free @ 1; which probably makes it better than a Fighter if you're going the finessee route AND plan on having a positive charisma
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Just as info, Warpriests are proficient in all Marital weapons; and treat any weapon they have weapon focus in + their diety's favorite weapon with full BAB. Their levels also count as Fighter for feat purposes (all of the Advanced class count as both of their base classes for feats).
Oh, now that's interesting. I'll have to take a closer look at that!
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I'm sorry but I am confused about how Diviner gets you early entry into Eldritch Knight. Hate be dense but I do not see any powers that = Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells. What am I missing?
In particular, the Scrying subschool of divination. It grants you a spell-like ability based on clairaudience/clairvoyance. Being granted by an arcane class, the SLA counts as arcane. Being based on a 3rd-level spell, the SLA is considered 3rd-level. And per a not-quite-recent-anymore FAQ, having a spell-like ability can count for spellcasting prereqs (such as feats or PrC's).
So for the EK prereq of "able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells", the aforementioned SLA qualifies.
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Hmm. A strict reading of the requirement would come up with the need for spells (plural), not just a spell. I am reminded of the early LG days when gnomes becoming Dragon Disciples based on their racial ability to spontaneously cast arcane spells. But thank you for the response. If this is PFS legal, its legal. I certainly will not argue.
yeah- if you're only taking 1 level, i think you're definitely better off with unarmed fighter than lore warden... its an extra feat vs. 2 skill points; the downside to the unarmed fighter is that you don't get to pick your 1st level bonus feat, but if you have an unused feat-slot later all it would really do is delay some of your feats. imp unarmed strike is handy because you always threaten, the question then is what style would you want... presumably one that will work when using a sword (even if 2handing it), and doesn't rely on skills you're not planning on taking- these ones seem like good candidates:
dragon (+2 v sleep/paralysis; ignore difficult terrain on charge/withdraw)
janni (half penalty for charging, opponents get 1/2 flanking bonus)
kobold (+4 CMB vs enemy denied dex- could be handy for a diviner)
monkey (no melee penalties for prone; don't provoke when crawl/stand up)
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Just as info, Warpriests are proficient in all Marital weapons; and treat any weapon they have weapon focus in + their diety's favorite weapon with full BAB. Their levels also count as Fighter for feat purposes (all of the Advanced class count as both of their base classes for feats).
Could you cite that rule? It'd be great for my future Warpriest/Gunslinger in PFS, but I can't find it.
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Hmm. A strict reading of the requirement would come up with the need for spells (plural), not just a spell.
That concern (and several others) were actually answered by the Design Team, and it indeed works. The whole multi-week experience of seeing all these concerns and counterarguments come up, and seeing the Design Team consistently answer with "Yes, it really works", is a truly fascinating story that I'm trying hard to refrain from telling in detail as I find it so interesting. :D
But anyway, if you find yourself curious, some searches of the Rules forum will yield some interesting results. (Sadly, you'll miss part of the story as one of the related FAQs changed partway through, which is a shame because the whole thing is fascinating...)
Okay, shutting up now.
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Bump.
Currently looking at the dual-talent human STR-based build, with Scryer subschool for early entry and Fighter for 1st level.
STR 17
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 17
WIS 10
CHA 07
What should my opposition schools be? Gotta keep divination (duh), illusion (for defense, mostly), and transmutation (for GMW). I'll be relying on mage armor for at least a while, so I have to keep conjuration as well (plus it's just a really strong school).
That leaves the following options for opposition schools:
Abjuration
Enchantment
Evocation
Necromancy
Dropping abjuration is a possibility, but costs me nice things like resist energy, protection from evil, shield, etc. I suppose some of those would be usable as scrolls/wands...
Enchantment seems easy to drop, perhaps; offensive spells tend to be mind-affecting (and sometimes language-dependent), not to mention a headache with varying GM interpretations. Biggest loss is probably heroism, which hurts.
Evocation... it just seems weird not to be able to prep a fireball, though I guess maybe I've got enough offensive options with conjuration and transmutation? Just no real nuking. Fireball just plain feels good. ;D
Necromancy feels easy to drop, especially since I find "dark and edgy" character tropes tiresome. I opposed it with my other EK, though every now and then I'd find myself wishing I could cast such-and-such a spell. Also, my low-AC plan makes false life seem more appealing than usual.
Any suggestions on school choices?
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I'd drop evocation, honestly. As an early entry EK, you will be in melee, and the blast spells won't be that missed. Besides, I find that conjuration and necromancy have the best blasts anyway.
Hm, so drop Evo and keep Necro? Then what do you suggest for the second drop: Abjur or Enchant?
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Not really sure for the second one. As you said, Necro is going to be nice for False Life with your non-ac approach to defense. Abjuration will also hurt short term(spells you mentioned) and long term(stoneskin). I think enchantment will hurt the least, as there are other effects and scrolls/wands/potions to cover heroism.
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You also have to pick which school you will have spell focus in, as you get that in place of Scribe Scroll in PFS.
Any suggestions on that?
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Regarding opposition schools: what spell(s) is/are the most painful to lose from each of the four schools in the running?
You also have to pick which school you will have spell focus in, as you get that in place of Scribe Scroll in PFS.Any suggestions on that?
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Regarding opposition schools: what spell(s) is/are the most painful to lose from each of the four schools in the running?
Dropping schools was never easy, especially back when you actually "dropped" the school and was prohibited. Nowadays its not so painful.
Enchantment and Evocation are the easiest to drop IMO, along with Necromancy maybe (although it has some nice buffs and kind of nice variety).
Abjuration wouldn't even be a consideration for me. You've already named the first few that jumped to mind, plus dispel magic. EVERYONE needs dispel magic at some point. It's not something that can easily be replaced with a wand because of the caster level check.
I think you can let go of enchantment. Heroism can be replaced or substituted.
Evocation offers two things for you: Touch based damage spells, and ranged damage spells. If you intend to cast shocking grasp like a Magus and use it in battle, then you'll want evocation. As for ranged, you'll probably be able to find decent or better substitues in other schools. If you can't, then you need evocation.
It's a tough choice, but I think Necromancy would provide more advantages for your character. The debuff spells are going to be helpful, and (as you said) there's false life to consider.
You have to first decide what you want out of the caster part of your build. Especially what you want when you are casting offensively.
Are you wanting direct damage (fireball), battlefield control (spiked pit), debuff (blindness), SoD (disintegrate), mind control (charm monster), buffs (haste), etc...
Just a guess, but since you are going EK you have a sword for direct damage. If you were really going for the high damage spell with the sword hit, magus would have been a better build.
The enchantment school is fun, but I think of that as more of a primary caster specialization. Almost exclusively will saves so you really need to jack up the spell DC so that you can still use it on opponents for whom it is the good save. Plus many opponents are immune to most of it without even more specialization. So I would think it is the easiest for you to give up.
It doesn't sound like you want to be a blaster except occasionally. Evocation is mostly blasting (and largely reflex saves). It has fewer control, buff, debuff, defense, or SoD options. other schools have a few blasting spells. So that would probably be my second recommendation to give up.
But if lots of different blasting possibilities or taking over a creatures mind is just to much of what you want to do, then it changes.
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The enchantment school is fun, but I think of that as more of a primary caster specialization. Almost exclusively will saves so you really need to jack up the spell DC so that you can still use it on opponents for whom it is the good save. Plus many opponents are immune to most of it without even more specialization. So I would think it is the easiest for you to give up.
Yeah, I'm strongly leaning toward opposing enchantment, for pretty much these reasons.
It doesn't sound like you want to be a blaster except occasionally. Evocation is mostly blasting (and largely reflex saves). It has fewer control, buff, debuff, defense, or SoD options. other schools have a few blasting spells. So that would probably be my second recommendation to give up.
But if lots of different blasting possibilities or taking over a creatures mind is just to much of what you want to do, then it changes.
I guess my other EK only casts blasts every once in a while, so maybe you're right: dropping evocation might not hurt too bad.
Non-evocation blasts/touch spells:
Chill Touch
Acid Arrow
Acidic Spray
Ice Spears
Pellet Blast
Boneshatter
Vampiric Touch
Horrid Wilting
Touch of Slime
Fiery Shuriken
Stone call(not so blasty but still)Disintegrate
Meh, i think you'll be fine...!
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I'm looking at some of those damage spells, and... I dunno, blasting spells are already not that strong, and those just deal soooo much less damage, at least until higher levels.
I mean, compare acid arrow to scorching ray. At 6th level (right before ScRy gets its second ray), we're looking at 6d4 vs 4d6. On average, AcAr is 1 point of damage ahead. But as soon as we hit 7th, suddenly ScRy is doing approximately double the damage of AcAr. At 9th level (the last AcAr interval before your third ScRy), it's 8d4 vs 8d6; we haven't even caught up. Granted, ScRy stops there while AcAr keeps going, but the next interval isn't until 12th (10d4 vs 12d6, still losing horribly). AcAr never actually catches up.
Chill touch never goes past 1d6.
Acidic spray doesn't even show up until (for an EK) 11th level, and even then it's barely better than lightning bolt, which I would've had 4 levels earlier.
Ice spears, though cool, is not a damage spell.
Pellet blast is a nice AoE, though as a large cone could have problems with friendly fire. Also, 1d8/2 levels is a lot worse than the standard 1d6/level. Leaving aside the issue with odd-numbered levels, I'm down a little over a point of damage per level. Would you ever prep a fireball if you took –1 damage per die? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't.
Boneshatter is actually pretty decent; standard 1d6/level damage, and trades in AoE-ness for a debuff. Too bad I'd have to buy a new book just to use it. :/
Vampiric touch is a decent spell, to be sure. But doesn't exactly fill the role we're talking about here.
Horrid wilting doesn't show up until 17th level; dunno why it was even mentioned. Disintegrate isn't much better, coming online at 13th.
Fiery shuriken is another 1d8/2 levels sort of a deal, but let's compare it to scorching ray (since they're the same level and similar ideas). At 5th when I get them, ScRy is one ray for average 14 damage, while FiShr is three shots for average 13.5 damage; comparable! At 7th, FiShr goes up to 18 while ScRy jumps to 28. Ouch. At 9th it's 22.5 vs 28, at 11th it's 27 vs 42 (ugh). Beyond that is irrelevant.
All in all, trying to use non-evocations for damage is looking pretty embarassing. I'm not sure I can do it. :/
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Evocations do more damage yes, but they are also vulnerable to SR, tend to target reflex saves, and are of more resisted damage types. A big advantage that Acid Arrow has of Scorching Ray is that is is not affected by SR and is Acid damage instead of Fire. Chill Touch is good for Str Damage as well as its damage, or as a good control vs undead. It also lasts for 1/round per level, so you can mix it in with your iterative attacks.
For pure damage output, there is no questions that evocations do more. However the other spells have benefits that counteract their lower damage.
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That would be a good argument, if I were a normal wizard who twiddled his thumbs if he didn't have properly-diversified spell options. But I'm not; I'm an Eldritch Knight. If there's an SR problem, I can just stab the damn thing.
A counterargument might be that for that same reason, evocations aren't that important; they're redundant to my melee damage capabilities. However, sometimes there's a group of mooks that makes an AoE really efficient. Sometimes I need to spew some damage now, rather than either casting a defensive buff first or moving in and then getting shredded. Sometimes there are tactical issues such that I need to strike from a distance.
Even though my existing EK does most of his damage with a sword, I've found that having a couple of solid blasts available is very handy.
...So I guess maybe I've just talked myself out of opposing evocation?
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just some food for thought, if you go with monk sohei 1/wizard foresight 1/ek 10, take a green scorpion (+4 initiative), trait bonus +2, and improved initiative (+4 initiative) you can have a +11 (+dex) initiative and have a free reroll for arcane spell failure when casting in armor.
i was thinking about playing this character because you only lose out on 1 feat and one bab, but gain better saves, IUS at 1d6, stunning fist, monk feat, wisdom to ac (if you choose to go unarmored), get to act every surprise round, and free initiative bump.
like i said just a different way to go.
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Speaking of alternate classes, Battle Oracle with Skill at Arms may be a better entrance for EK than Fighter. You loose out on a point of BAB, but you get level 1 divine spells, and you can take extra relevations as feats to further boost yourself. Curse is a pain, but it helps you too, and half of your non-oracle levels count towards improving your curse, so you would get the first curse improvement.
Chill touch is nice in that is neg energy, touch attack (you are in melee) get number of touch attacks equal to caster level (actually states rounds per level). So like said above good spell for front line attackers. Also works on undead too. Enchantment might be your best bet though. I thought diviners only had to give up one school?
jiggy, i know you're replacing another EK with this one... perhaps a question that should be asked is how similar to your old guy do you want this new one to be? if you're just rebooting him, start with what you chose last time and ask if there's anything you've changed in the build (or that you noticed about the spells you actually cast before) that merits changing one of his schools. if you're trying to distinguish this one from the last, pick 2 schools you didn't pick last time, knowing (and embracing) that having different spells available/prepared will actually naturally lead to you playing him differently than the last one...
edit: diviners only lost one school in 3.5 (that's where that came from)
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jiggy, i know you're replacing another EK with this one... perhaps a question that should be asked is how similar to your old guy do you want this new one to be? if you're just rebooting him, start with what you chose last time and ask if there's anything you've changed in the build (or that you noticed about the spells you actually cast before) that merits changing one of his schools. if you're trying to distinguish this one from the last, pick 2 schools you didn't pick last time, knowing (and embracing) that having different spells available/prepared will actually naturally lead to you playing him differently than the last one...
The idea was originally inspired by my existing EK (whose opposition schools are illusion and necromancy). I was finding myself really liking greater magic weapon (mostly, its effect on my budget), and I thought "Hey, what if I did the same thing with defense by using defensive illusions instead of wearing armor?" Giving it a go would also let me see what the early-entry EK is like, experiment with my first non-AC-focused melee combatant, be able to take Magical Knack before 11th level, and make use of some lessons learned and some new material that's come out in the last couple of years.
So yeah, I guess it's mostly a reboot. As far as schools, the original opposed illusion and necro. Obviously, opposing illusion is not an option for this version, so that's switching places with probably enchantment (I think the only enchantment my other EK ever casts is heroism, which I suppose is less necessary due to higher BAB with the early-entry model; makes me nervous about my Will save, though).
So if I keep necro as one of my opposition choices, then I have about the same spell selection as the original, except trading out heroism for some illusions. At this point, it really is just a reboot with one experimental factor (armorlessness) and some new toys.
Alternatively, I swap in necro for something else (either abjuration or evocation, as that's what's left) and make the whole package feel completely different.
And honestly, I'm not sure which I'd prefer: the one-tweak reboot or the embrace-the-difference build. :/
And honestly, I'm not sure which I'd prefer: the one-tweak reboot or the embrace-the-difference build. :/
it seems (to me, at least) like that's the most important thing for you to figure out... every school has at least one spell you are going to miss, pick your schools for the feel you want for the character instead of pulling your hair out trying to figure out how to get all the spells
(plus- if you really want to minimize what 'needed' spells you're missing you should look at an elemental school... only one opposed element and the list of prohibited spells is pretty small; unfortunately, none of them offer a 3rd level SLA, so you'd need a racial/feat exploit to gain early entry)
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And honestly, I'm not sure which I'd prefer: the one-tweak reboot or the embrace-the-difference build. :/it seems (to me, at least) like that's the most important thing for you to figure out... every school has at least one spell you are going to miss, pick your schools for the feel you want for the character instead of pulling your hair out trying to figure out how to get all the spells
Yeah, I think you're right, that is what I need to figure out. Hrm...
Yeah, I think you're right, that is what I need to figure out. Hrm...And honestly, I'm not sure which I'd prefer: the one-tweak reboot or the embrace-the-difference build. :/it seems (to me, at least) like that's the most important thing for you to figure out... every school has at least one spell you are going to miss, pick your schools for the feel you want for the character instead of pulling your hair out trying to figure out how to get all the spells
Btw, I don't know if you have already seen it, I've PM'ed a few things.
That would be a good argument, if I were a normal wizard who twiddled his thumbs if he didn't have properly-diversified spell options. But I'm not; I'm an Eldritch Knight. If there's an SR problem, I can just stab the damn thing.
A counterargument might be that for that same reason, evocations aren't that important; they're redundant to my melee damage capabilities. However, sometimes there's a group of mooks that makes an AoE really efficient. Sometimes I need to spew some damage now, rather than either casting a defensive buff first or moving in and then getting shredded. Sometimes there are tactical issues such that I need to strike from a distance.
Even though my existing EK does most of his damage with a sword, I've found that having a couple of solid blasts available is very handy.
...So I guess maybe I've just talked myself out of opposing evocation?
I would never say evocation is not a good (and fun) school of spells. They are excellent at what they do. However, they tend to be fairly similar blasty spells. There isn't as much diversification of effects that the other schools have.
Yes, the other schools blasty spells are not as good. (Though they usually have other additional effects rather than just damage.) But if you are only using them to clean out a room of mooks, seems like they would probably be good enough.
Also once you are into the mid-high PFS levels you are probably not running out of spells anyway. So you can go ahead and prep a fireball to clear mooks even if it costs 2 slots.
Again, just depends upon what you want to do with the guy. If having good blasts really is important to you then no you do not want to oppose evocations. From the little bit you described earlier, I didn't think it was too important to the concept.
Might be a hold over from 3.5, will check.
EDIT: Which it was, sorry for the confusion. Shows how often I play as a wizard.
But as suggested above, deside if it is a reboot, or a completely new dude. Then work out what spells are must haves (illusion and Mage armor) and what are not really needed. Then pick your opposed off of that. For those few low level spells you will want, scrolls or wands will cover (example fireball, false life, or heroism). Hope that helps. But I over all like the idea. If you go strength, might I suggest nodochi (free action to remove hand to cast).
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If you go strength, might I suggest nodochi (free action to remove hand to cast).
I prefer one-handers because I don't stop threatening while grappled or while holding something in my other hand. The damage difference is negligible, since a 1H weapon can still be used 2H for all the damage bonuses.