Heck, the fighter has a very little battlefield presence... For instance, lets take the favorite situation for people who LOVE supporting martials, the Anti-Magic Field. The fighter loses all of his gear (which hurts alot) and loses ALL of his buffs. The Barbarian? for the most part only loses his gear because most rage powers are (Ex)So the barbarian do not lost his gear and buff?
Yes,
Except the Fighter is SOLELY DEPENDENT on those buffs and his gear. Where as the Barbarian is still competent with just his rage powers...
Heck, the fighter has a very little battlefield presence... For instance, lets take the favorite situation for people who LOVE supporting martials, the Anti-Magic Field. The fighter loses all of his gear (which hurts alot) and loses ALL of his buffs. The Barbarian? for the most part only loses his gear because most rage powers are (Ex)So the barbarian do not lost his gear and buff?Yes,
Except the Fighter is SOLELY DEPENDENT on those buffs and his gear. Where as the Barbarian is still competent with just his rage powers...
Totally and utterly untrue.
In antimagic field the barbarian lose his natural armor and pounce. The fighter still have all his feats (most likely).
and usperstition is now usseles since htere is no SU, SLA or spell in the antimagic field, so the diference in saves is not there, while the diference in increase.
A Fight without magic pleases the Barbarian. HP, DR, Full BAB and a huge natural strength boost.
A fight broken down to just HP damage and full attacks is a fight a Barbarian is willing to fight with or without gear. At the end of the day, the Fighter might not be the toughest one in a fight. A Barbarian 9 times out of 10 is.
A Fight without magic pleases the Barbarian. HP, DR, Full BAB and a huge natural strength boost.
A fight broken down to just HP damage and full attacks is a fight a Barbarian is willing to fight with or without gear. At the end of the day, the Fighter might not be the toughest one in a fight. A Barbarian 9 times out of 10 is.
Fighters do just fine without magic. Like any other character they are better with it. The game assumes that you have access to magic in some way. The fighter's problem without magic is the same as pretty much all of the non-casters and some of the partial casters: hit points are not a finite resource. The fighter and a couple other classes could also consider the Will save to be a problem but if there's no magic to worry about then it's not as relevant.
In the end, it's not going to depend nearly as much on the class as it will on the build. As was already pointed out: characters built organically tend to do pretty well since they are dealing with the campaign and party they were designed with.
A Fight without magic pleases the Barbarian. HP, DR, Full BAB and a huge natural strength boost.
A fight broken down to just HP damage and full attacks is a fight a Barbarian is willing to fight with or without gear. At the end of the day, the Fighter might not be the toughest one in a fight. A Barbarian 9 times out of 10 is.
Fighters do just fine without magic. Like any other character they are better with it. The game assumes that you have access to magic in some way. The fighter's problem without magic is the same as pretty much all of the non-casters and some of the partial casters: hit points are not a finite resource. The fighter and a couple other classes could also consider the Will save to be a problem but if there's no magic to worry about then it's not as relevant.
Cool but that doesn't address any of my points.
In an Antimagic field, AC is going to be pitiful. So Fighter's heavy armor and/or shield use is rendered pointless. A Barbarian has his greater hit points, heightened hit points from rage, his strength bonus, and his DR still functioning.
A Fighter resorts to just full attacking since his fancier stuff requires his gear to function. Combat Maneuvers are out of the picture unless you're fighting a humanoid in an anti magic field and the sad part is that a Barbarian still does that better.
Without magic, a fight is brought down to who can hit hardest and take the most hits. From what I can see, its the Barbarian.
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Antimagic field is an invalid situation to talk about.
There is ONE thing you do in an antimagic field and that is walk out of it.
I do not see how this can be true when there is at least an AC diference of 5 points (6 if defender of society).
Which is meaningless because the things who can chuck Antimagic fields around and melee have huge attack bonuses. So hitpoints and DR are the only defense that matters there.
A Fight without magic pleases the Barbarian. HP, DR, Full BAB and a huge natural strength boost.
A fight broken down to just HP damage and full attacks is a fight a Barbarian is willing to fight with or without gear. At the end of the day, the Fighter might not be the toughest one in a fight. A Barbarian 9 times out of 10 is.
Fighters do just fine without magic. Like any other character they are better with it. The game assumes that you have access to magic in some way. The fighter's problem without magic is the same as pretty much all of the non-casters and some of the partial casters: hit points are not a finite resource. The fighter and a couple other classes could also consider the Will save to be a problem but if there's no magic to worry about then it's not as relevant.
Cool but that doesn't address any of my points.
In an Antimagic field, AC is going to be pitiful. So Fighter's heavy armor and/or shield use is rendered pointless. A Barbarian has his greater hit points, heightened hit points from rage, his strength bonus, and his DR still functioning.
A Fighter resorts to just full attacking since his fancier stuff requires his gear to function. Combat Maneuvers are out of the picture unless you're fighting a humanoid in an anti magic field and the sad part is that a Barbarian still does that better.
Without magic, a fight is brought down to who can hit hardest and take the most hits. From what I can see, its the Barbarian.
I intentionally wasn't speaking of an antimagic field because they are not common enough to be an issue. I was speaking generally. The fighter can deal enough damage and hit often enough to be as relevant as other martials without magic. Magic makes every character better.
Your barbarian will still need to come out of his rage. That's a problem without magic because, as I mentioned, you still have to deal with your very limited resource: hit points. You might be able to take a beating while raged but after about level 5 or so, you are living on borrowed time.
Your barbarian will still need to come out of his rage. That's a problem without magic because, as I mentioned, you still have to deal with your very limited resource: hit points. You might be able to take a beating while raged but after about level 5 or so, you are living on borrowed time.
It's a good thing Barbarians get the most of that resource without magic then. And his DR will make his HP go longer than anyone else.
It's a good thing Barbarians get the most of that resource without magic then. And his DR will make his HP go longer than anyone else.
Your barbarian will still need to come out of his rage. That's a problem without magic because, as I mentioned, you still have to deal with your very limited resource: hit points. You might be able to take a beating while raged but after about level 5 or so, you are living on borrowed time.
Not necessarily true. You're making too many assumptions. You're probably getting hit more often. It's pretty much a wash in the end. You aren't really that much better off than the fighter, or other front-line martials.
Not necessarily true. You're making too many assumptions. You're probably getting hit more often. It's pretty much a wash in the end. You aren't really that much better off than the fighter, or other front-line martials.It's a good thing Barbarians get the most of that resource without magic then. And his DR will make his HP go longer than anyone else.
Your barbarian will still need to come out of his rage. That's a problem without magic because, as I mentioned, you still have to deal with your very limited resource: hit points. You might be able to take a beating while raged but after about level 5 or so, you are living on borrowed time.
At the levels Antimagic field are in play, Attack bonuses tend to be extremely high. The Fighter sits at a probable 22 or 23 AC as opposed to the Barbarian's probable 16. Iterative attacks may miss, but natural attacks are unlikely to.
At the levels Antimagic field are in play, Attack bonuses tend to be extremely high. The Fighter sits at a probable 22 or 23 AC as opposed to the Barbarian's probable 16. Iterative attacks may miss, but natural attacks are unlikely to.
We're not talking about antimagic fields. They aren't common enough to be the problem. Your barbarian will always have the same problem that all non-casting martials have that don't use magic. It's a feature of the game. It's ok that it works out that way too. The game is meant to be cooperative.
Remember that not all combat occurs in melee. A fighter can be built to deal with both melee and ranged combat. If you are focusing your barbarian on natural attacks, damage reduction, and pounce, you probably aren't adding much in the way of ranged combat. That's ok. That's what the barbarian is meant for. Yeah, he can also be a hurler but he only has so many powers and feats. Every option you claim is one you aren't.
Can't the Barbarian just pick up Deadly Aim and use Reckless Abandon for some powerful ranged attacks?
Can't the Barbarian just pick up Deadly Aim and use Reckless Abandon for some powerful ranged attacks?
That they can do. Taking deadly aim on its own does pretty well too, or at least in my experience. Adaptive bow is not out of the norm for a barbarian either.
If you gestalt Fighter and Rogue together would that be the best martial "class"?
Can't the Barbarian just pick up Deadly Aim and use Reckless Abandon for some powerful ranged attacks?
The fighter can also improve its damage. But my point is that this barbarian is using up its rage powers quickly to be as good as the fighter. It's not superior or inferior.
Can't the Barbarian just pick up Deadly Aim and use Reckless Abandon for some powerful ranged attacks?The fighter can also improve its damage. But my point is that this barbarian is using up its rage powers quickly to be as good as the fighter. It's not superior or inferior.
Fair enough. To be honest archery is the one aspect I see Fighters being superior to Barbarians in. Archery takes a lot of feats before it becomes powerful, and Barbarians don't get bonus feats. I wouldn't ever really go pure Bowbarian, but it still is easy to get pretty good damage on a bow with them, since Reckless Abandon is a good Rage power and Deadly Aim is just one feat.
Can't the Barbarian just pick up Deadly Aim and use Reckless Abandon for some powerful ranged attacks?The fighter can also improve its damage. But my point is that this barbarian is using up its rage powers quickly to be as good as the fighter. It's not superior or inferior.
Wait, how is he using up rage powers to be just as good as the fighter?
Just the same, burning only one feat on deadly aim still leaves plenty of room for other feats, and your rage powers. You still have room for superstitious and beast totem before you ever put something on paper.
Look at me I'm a feat heavy Barbar.
I take power attack, Intimidating prowess, deadly aim and maybe toughness.
As a Half-orc I have 7-6 feats left. As a Human I have 8-7 feats left.
Hmmm I think I'll just take extra rage power for the rest.
Where did he say "Wasting"?
Changed the words to reflect it better. Just didn't hit the post button until now.
I should probably add that reckless Abandon is good for melee or ranged.
He's using his rage powers to be able to deal as much damage as the fighter in melee and ranged. He can't achieve that with only feats. He has to use his rage powers to pull it off. He doesn't have that many at level 12 (which is what someone suggested as the cap to this exercise).
He's already using at least two powers to get more than one natural attack (animal fury and beast totem, lesser). He also said he has pounce, which means he needs the beast totem and beast totem, greater abilities. We're at 4 rage powers. He also said he has damage reduction, which would be 2/- at level 12. So if he takes Reckless Abandon that leaves him with only one rage power left. He also has 6 feats to choose from but we're now setting him at 13 Dex and he's taking Deadly Aim. We're starting to lock him in to something. I assumed that since he's supposed to soak damage that all of his favored class bonuses should go into hit points. When I build for the boards, I use the Elite Array. I find it easier for me because it's already set. However, we should see what we can do with 15 points since that's what the game assumes.
Eventually it's going to come to full form. What other abilities should it have? What should its stats be? Which feats should it take?
Unnamed Hero
Half-Orc Barbarian 12
N Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +0
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 11, touch 11, flat-footed 10 (+1 Dex)
hp 101 (12d12+12)
Fort +8, Ref +5 (+4 bonus vs. traps), Will +4
Defensive Abilities uncanny dodge, orc ferocity, trap sense; DR 2/—
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Special Attacks rage, rage powers (animal fury, beast totem +4 ac, beast totem, greater, beast totem, lesser, reckless abandon [+/-4])
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +12; CMB +13; CMD 24
Feats Deadly Aim
Skills Intimidate +2; Racial Modifiers +2 Intimidate
Languages Common, Orc
SQ fast movement, orc blood
Other Gear 10650 GP
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Orc Ferocity (1/day) - 0/1
Rage (26 rounds/day) (Ex) - 0/26
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Animal Fury (Ex) Gain a d4 bite attack while raging
Beast Totem +4 AC (Su) +4 Natural Armor while raging.
Beast Totem, Greater (Su) Pounce ability and 1d8 claw damage while raging
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 d6 claw attacks while raging
Damage Reduction (2/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deadly Aim -4/+8 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=16) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 16+.
Orc Blood Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) If brought below 0 Hp, can act as though disabled for 1 rd.
Rage (26 rounds/day) (Ex) +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Reckless Abandon (+/-4) (Ex) Trade AC penalty for to hit bonus while raging.
Trap Sense +4 (Ex) +4 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Don't worry, I'm working on a fighter that can hold his own. I just have a lot of personal things I'm also working on outside of the boards.
A human barbarian with all 4 feats they may want would still have 9 rage powers...
3 beast totems
1 Superstition
1 reckless abandon
Still got 4 to go...
EDIT: For the other 4 let's just say
Quick reflexes
Unexpected Strike
Come and Get Me
And the feat combat reflexes
Throw in invulnerable rager archetype for extra fun.
Would also help to remove animal fury since no one brought it up I can see.
You have a total of 6 rage powers and 6 feats to choose from. Remember that not only do you have a total of 12 options, you need to take into account when you can take those options. Animal Fury was there because it provided a natural attack. The poster wasn't specific so I wanted to make sure I had as many as I could using only the barbarian's abilities.
Level 1: Deadly Aim (Dex set at 13 minimum)
Level 2: Beast Totem, Lesser
Level 3: Extra Rage Power (Reckless Abandon)
Level 4: Superstition
Level 5: Feat
Level 6: Beast Totem
Level 7: Feat
Level 8: Rage Power
Level 9: Feat
Level 10: Beast Totem, Greater
Level 11: Feat
Level 12: Rage Power
So how are we filling in the blanks?
Extra Rage Power
You have unlocked a new ability to use while raging.
Prerequisite: Rage power class feature.
Benefit: You gain one additional rage power. You must meet all of the prerequisites for this rage power.
Special: You can gain Extra Rage Power multiple times.
Source: Advanced Player's Guide
Human
Level 1: Toughness, Intimidating Prowess
Level 2: Beast Totem, Lesser
Level 3: Power Attack
Level 4: Superstition
Level 5: Deadly Aim
Level 6: Beast Totem
Level 7: Combat Reflexes
Level 8: Unexpected Strike
Level 9: Extra rage power(Reckless Abandon)
Level 10: Beast Totem, Greater
Level 11: Extra rage power(Quick reflexes)
Level 12: Come and Get Me
Here's the current stat block:
You should use 15 point buy. Your strength and dex must be at least 13 at this point. You also will want to grab some sort of ranged weapon (nonmagical). Armor and race would be nice too. The hit points can be increased by 12 if we reduce the skill points by 12. Hero Lab defaults to skill points. (I edited it to include the archetype.)
Unnamed Hero
No Race Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) 12
Medium
Init +1; Senses Perception +0
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 9, touch 5, flat-footed 8 (+1 Dex, +4 natural)
hp 125 (12d12+36)
Fort +11, Ref +5, Will +7; +5 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities but must resist all spells, even allies'
DR 12/lethal, 6/—; Resist extreme endurance
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee 2 claws +20 (1d8+4/×3)
Special Attacks pounce, rage, rage powers (beast totem +4 ac, beast totem, greater, beast totem, lesser, come and get me, quick reflexes, reckless abandon [+/-4], superstition +5, unexpected strike [1/rage])
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 19, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +12; CMB +20; CMD 21
Feats Combat Reflexes, Deadly Aim, Extra Rage Power, Extra Rage Power, Intimidating Prowess, Power Attack
Skills Intimidate +4
Languages Common
SQ fast movement
Other Gear 150 GP
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Rage (26 rounds/day) (Ex) - 0/26
Unexpected Strike (1/rage) (Ex) - 0/1
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Beast Totem +4 AC (Su) +4 Natural Armor while raging.
Beast Totem, Greater (Su) Pounce ability and 1d8 claw damage while raging
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 d6 claw attacks while raging
Combat Reflexes (2 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Come and Get Me (Ex) Enemies get +4 to hit and damage you, but attacks provoke AoO from you
Damage Reduction (12/lethal) You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage
Damage Reduction (6/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Deadly Aim -4/+8 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Extreme Endurance (-Choose-) (Ex) At 3rd level, the invulnerable rager is inured to either hot or cold climate effects (choose one) as if using endure elements. In addition, the barbarian gains 1 point of fire or cold resistance for every three levels beyond 3rd. This ability
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Pounce (Ex) You can make a full attack as part of a charge.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Reflexes (Ex) While raging, you may make one additional attack of opportunity per round.
Rage (26 rounds/day) (Ex) +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Reckless Abandon (+/-4) (Ex) Trade AC penalty for to hit bonus while raging.
Superstition +5 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs magic, but must resist all spells, even allies'.
Unexpected Strike (1/rage) (Ex) Once per rage, gain an attack of opportunity against someone who moves into your threatened area.
Extra Rage Power
You know I get this feeling that Marthkus thinks extra rage power is a great options...
CAGM is a pretty good feat too. You can build around that thing. Could you imagine if CAGM were a regular bonus feat?
He doesn't have enough feats to add those in. He's used all his options.
I'm headed to bed. I have a long work week ahead. I'll continue this later.
He doesn't have enough feats to add those in. He's used all his options.
Because clearly I said you should stuff all these things into the build?
I'd build differently than Marthkus. Not a big fan of builds at all though. You can prove something can happen, but comparatively it mostly shows a person's ability to build.
Barbarians are pretty good archers nowadays... Especially Urban Barbarians, but that archetype is not necessary.
Get Deadly Aim, buy an adaptive bow, and you're good to go.
Fighters do make better switch-hitters, but that's the one thing they are better than Barbarians at.... I suppose they have higher AC, but the difference is not significant, IMO.
I suppose they have higher AC, but the difference is not significant, IMO.
Sort of higher AC. Depends on some things. Theoretically fighters get 4 more than other classes through armor training. On the other hand, barbarians have a potential +6 from beast totem. Mithral and Celestial armors steal some of the thunder from armor training too, and to get that theoretical AC from the fighter requires a dexterity investment, and your level and build can determine how much he can have. Of course, the barbarian's build can also make a difference. Things like whether he's an urban barbarian or if he's using reckless abandon constantly.
Barbarians also have more access to things that are or act like damage reduction, and they have a larger bulk of HP through HD and their con bonus while raging.
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You guys keep going back and forth between Barb/Pali/Fighter like they are the only martials... Take into consideration the Monk, several archetypes can and do exceed all 3 of these in the mid tier levels. Lets take a look at the Zen Archer, one of my favorite Monk Archetypes:
Human(Tian-Shu) Qinggong Zen Archer Monk
STR: 14 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 7 WIS: 20(+2 human, +2 lv4/8) CHA: 7
Fort: +9 Reflex: +10 Will: +12
Initiative +8 Perception +16
AC: 20 Flat: 17 Touch: 20
TRAITS:
Reactionary (Combat) - +2 initiative.
Heart of Clay (Regional - Ling Shen) - +1 Fort Saves.
Indomitable Will (Faith) - +1 Will Saves.
Dangerously Curious (Magic) - +1 UMD and it becomes a class skill.
FEATS:
(Human)Dodge - +1 AC while not Flat-Footed.
(Lv1)Improved Initiative - +4 initiative.
(Lv1 Bonus)Precise Shot - Negate the penalty for firing into melee.
(Lv2 Bonus)Point Blank Shot - +1 to hit and damage if within 30'.
(Lv3)Deadly Aim - Ranged Power Attack.
(Lv5)Lightning Reflexes - +2 Reflex Saves.
(Lv6 Bonus)Improved Precise Shot - Ignore less than total concealment/cover.
(Lv7)Additional Traits - 2 extra traits from different sub-groups.
Zen Archer Class Features:
AC Bonus - Monk level/4 + WIS mod to AC.
Flurry of Bows - Can only flurry with bows.
Improved Unarmed Strike - Unarmed strikes do 1d10.
Perfect Strike - Roll 2d20 for any one attack per round, a number of times per day equal to monk level.
Way of the Bow - Weapon Focus(Lv2) and Weapon Specialization(Lv6)
Fast Movement - +20 speed while carrying only a light load. +8 Acrobatics to jump.
Zen Archery - Use WIS mod instead of DEX mod for bow shots.
Point Blank Master - Don't provoke AoO's while firing your bow.
Ki Pool - WIS mod + Monk level/2
Slow Fall - Treat falls as 40' shorter if there is a wall.
Ki Arrows - Use your unarmed damage die for arrows for 1 round.
Qinggong Monk Class Features:
Ki Power - Can replace noted abilities with new Ki powers. Treat your monk level as your caster level for these spells. There are a multitude of spells to chose from, all listed in Ultimate Magic pages 51 and 52.
As of level 8, our Zen friend is sitting at a +6/+6/+1/+1 flurry. Add in Weapon Focus for +1, Masterwork bow (grabbed for just 400gp) for +1, +5 from Wisdom, and -2 for Deadly Aim. This brings us to a whopping +11/+11/+6/+6 flurry, +1 more if within 30'. A Composite Longbow in your hands is dealing 1d8+9 (+2(STR)+2(Weapon Specialization)+1 if under 30'+4(Deadly Aim)). This gives us a average DPR of 56, 70 with an extra Ki flurry.
All of this is a completely naked monk. with just a composite longbow and some arrows.
Have fun.
Not a big fan of builds at all though. You can prove something can happen, but comparatively it mostly shows a person's ability to build.
Which is what everything boils down to in the end. People can keep throwing around claims about what various characters can do but until someone actually builds that character, it's just meaningless. It comes down to: we play things differently.
I like builds because they demonstrate what can be done. Saying that a character can do X, Y, and Z is one thing. Showing me how, and how effective, is a completely different matter. I've seen a lot of claims thrown around the boards I've been on since TSR was on AOL. A good percentage of them turned out to be overhyped or underwhelming. Some were spot on. I have also seen people come to a game with a build they've seen online that was supposed to be the best thing ever created to have that character die in the beginning of the adventure because of either an unforeseen flaw or the player not really understanding how to play someone else's concept.
I don't think that the barbarian is any better than the fighter overall. I think that it's better in some areas and worse in others. I think that most games really wouldn't see much difference in success between the two.
Magus is not THAT difficult to play...
Prepared Shocking Grasp? Check
Have a Scimitar? Check
Have Dervish Dancing? Check
Used pool to give weapon Keen? Check
Ok, now time to go to town.
Magus is not THAT difficult to play...
Figure out how spell combat and spell strike work? Crap...
That one took me a while. After that they're pretty simple though. They also tend to be somewhat spammy in my experience.
Magus is not THAT difficult to play...Figure out how spell combat and spell strike work? Crap...
That one took me a while. After that they're pretty simple though. They also tend to be somewhat spammy in my experience.
Haha, I picked it up quickly but I know my GM took forever to understand how it worked lol