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If you want an NPC to stay dead in spite of the resources to be revived, just have it be said that Pharasma has judged them already. I believe that she doesn't go through the line in chronological order, but rather determines whose time is up and who still has a role to play in the world.Or other considertions. Aroden for instance, was bumped to the head of the line and judged immediately after his death.
Come to think of it, she may have done this just so that no one could cast Raise Dead on his body. Which would imply that Aroden's body still exists somewhere out there ;-)
Eventhough mechanically high level magic is likely fairly available in a big city, it is really only for special people, ie the players.
Raise Dead and Resurection have enough qualifiers and hurdles that the GM can explain why it just doesn't happen except very very rarely when dealing with non PC's. Very expensive, person needs to want to come back, priest/church needs to want to bring the person back, time limits, etc. In other words each country probably has a story of the one or two times it happened in the country's history but that is it.
If I had to explain it I would go with...
1) for good people the afterlife is awesome and they don't want to come back.
2) for evil people they want like crazy to get out of Hell or the Abyss but evil gods don't let them out and evil priests don't give a damn so they aren't going to raise you. They have already moved on to their next evil plot, you failed after all and don't deserve a second shot.
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This is why I don't use Raise/Resurrection spells in my games. They just don't exist. On the rare occasion I have gods in my world, you have to go on a major quest to get someone back from the dead. The other 99% of the time, dead is dead.
Oh yeah.
Players: “Hey Bob, we have to go on a quest for about 4 nites of gaming in order to raise you, so I guess you can just stay home or you can play my Mount.”
Bob: “yeah, sounds like real fun. Look, instead- here’s Knuckles the 87th , go ahead and loot Knuckles the 86th body. He's got some cool stuff."
The whole idea of “death should mean something” becomes meaningless when we all realize that D&D is a Game, Games should be Fun, and in order to have Fun you have to Play. Thereby, when a Player’s PC dies either you Raise him or he brings in another. Raising is preferable story-wise, and costs resources. Bringing in another costs continuity and actually increases party wealth. Not to mention, instead of an organic played-from-1st-PC we have a PC generated at that level, which can lead to some odd min/maxing.
The third alternative is “Sorry Bob, Knuckles is dead. You’re out of the campaign, we’ll let you know when the next one is starting, should be in about a year or so.’ Really?
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"Yes, I realize I am a talking badger. But I really AM Lord Wimsey!"If somebody is brought back by Reincarnate
The jacket and waistcoat are dead giveaways...;-)
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&q=mr+badg er+wind+in+the+willows&gbv=2&oq=badger+wind+in+the&gs_l=img.1.1 .0j0i5j0i24l4.2000.6157.0.8063.18.18.0.0.0.0.203.2093.0j15j1.16.0....0...1a c.1.24.img..2.16.2093._mxnnXrw1v4
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It also bears noting that PCs in my games generally only die as a result of intentional plot-relevant player decisions (aka 'they sacrifice themselves for something' not 'hey, look, random goblin crit'). Protagonists in genre fiction don't just keel over; it's always a major event, so that's how I do it. If Bob's dude died, it's because Bob wanted his dude to die, because it makes for a better story.
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Some, but most core races and religeons are a bit more practical. It's better to cremate and make sure they don't come back unless there's a need for them to, than to run the risk of them comming back... and not as the beloved "uncle teddy"?Or conversely, many societies may frown on cremation, because they consider it the same as saying "Good, I am glad you are dead, and I don't want to you come back.""All right Pathfinders, our old Ally, Lord Wimsey, has recently passed. He left strict instructions with the temple of Sarenrae to resurect him, but for some reason they are being denied access to the body. We need you to investigate the estate, find the body, and recover it for our allies in the temple. The Wimsey family itself is quite well connected, and we want to maintain our ties with the former lord."
A great use of the "recover body" prestige reward
;)
Which is likely why the new Lord Wimsey had his father's body cremated as early as possible.
Actually, cremation should have a far wider use in Golarion and other similar settings where it prevents both Raise Dead and rising as an undead (at least the most frequent ones).
Yes, but my point was more, the DM can run this however they want since they are the ones that decide the burial customs of each and every society.
Come to think of it, she may have done this just so that no one could cast Raise Dead on his body. Which would imply that Aroden's body still exists somewhere out there ;-)If you want an NPC to stay dead in spite of the resources to be revived, just have it be said that Pharasma has judged them already. I believe that she doesn't go through the line in chronological order, but rather determines whose time is up and who still has a role to play in the world.Or other considertions. Aroden for instance, was bumped to the head of the line and judged immediately after his death.
As a deity, Aroden would be a non-native outsider -- so Raise Dead would not work on him anyway.
It also bears noting that PCs in my games generally only die as a result of intentional plot-relevant player decisions (aka 'they sacrifice themselves for something' not 'hey, look, random goblin crit'). Protagonists in genre fiction don't just keel over; it's always a major event, so that's how I do it. If Bob's dude died, it's because Bob wanted his dude to die, because it makes for a better story.
Then, you're playing a seriously houserules game. Nothing wrong with that, but then saying "This is why I don't use Raise/Resurrection spells in my games" is disingenuous. No, "PCs in my games generally only die as a result of intentional plot-relevant player decisions" that is why you don't need raise dead, since people only die by choice.
And yet there are all these other roleplaying games out there that continue just fine without ANY resurrection mechanic. Vampire, Mage, Twilight 2000, Star Wars, the list goes on.
All of which are sitting on the bottom shelf of your FLGS, covered with dust with a "close out sale" tag on them.
And "Vampire"?! Seriously, you bring in a game where the PC's are nigh unkillable as a example?
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So, summary:
1) Soul may not be free and willing to return (evil souls are bound/possessed by fiends, nonevil souls are happy with their afterlife, Pharasma may already have judged the soul).
2) Enemies or heirs may prevent access to body.
3) May be difficult to find a priest of sufficient level and an amenable religion in time to Raise.
4) There may be legal or social repercussions making it less attractive to be raised, such as loss of lands and titles.
5) There may be supernatural repercussions to being raised, such as being possessed by an outsider who came along for the ride, or being hunted by creatures who are somehow upset or interested by raised individuals.
In my current campaign, Raise Dead is a little more complicated. You don't just burn 5000gp of diamonds and cast a spell. You have to bargain with a psychopomp for entry into the land of the dead, with the value of the fee for passage depending both on the value of the soul and the petitioner's ability to pay - a wandering minstrel trying to raise his young son may be required to sing one song a day for the rest of his life praising the goddess of death, while a queen raising her beloved husband may need to finance a cathedral, and a band of powerful adventurers trying to raise one of their own may need to defeat a lich who has cheated death for too long. Then you have to actually find the soul and bring them back - the bargain only gives you permission to pass in through the gates and out again (with the soul to be raised). Plus normal complications with needing a caster, a body, and a free and willing soul. I like this system because it makes returning from the dead possible for anyone, even low-level PCs, but it's always a big deal, not an economic transaction.
It also says many societies rule someone who is resurefted retains all rights as if they had never died but must pay the same inheritance taxes an heir would have.
I like that idea.
It also bears noting that PCs in my games generally only die as a result of intentional plot-relevant player decisions (aka 'they sacrifice themselves for something' not 'hey, look, random goblin crit'). Protagonists in genre fiction don't just keel over; it's always a major event, so that's how I do it. If Bob's dude died, it's because Bob wanted his dude to die, because it makes for a better story.Then, you're playing a seriously houserules game. Nothing wrong with that, but then saying "This is why I don't use Raise/Resurrection spells in my games" is disingenuous. No, "PCs in my games generally only die as a result of intentional plot-relevant player decisions" that is why you don't need raise dead, since people only die by choice.
Meh. Nobody ever used it when I allowed it, so it doesn't matter much. We just don't like it. We look at it as a chance to try something new.
Meh. Nobody ever used it when I allowed it, so it doesn't matter much. We just don't like it. We look at it as a chance to try something new.It also bears noting that PCs in my games generally only die as a result of intentional plot-relevant player decisions (aka 'they sacrifice themselves for something' not 'hey, look, random goblin crit'). Protagonists in genre fiction don't just keel over; it's always a major event, so that's how I do it. If Bob's dude died, it's because Bob wanted his dude to die, because it makes for a better story.Then, you're playing a seriously houserules game. Nothing wrong with that, but then saying "This is why I don't use Raise/Resurrection spells in my games" is disingenuous. No, "PCs in my games generally only die as a result of intentional plot-relevant player decisions" that is why you don't need raise dead, since people only die by choice.
Zhayne, while I am sure your campaign is fun, and you seem to be a imaginative DM, etc, it is rather clear that your game is pretty far from the norm, as far as PF goes. So, perhaps your ideas on getting rid of Raise dead aren't really helpful here.
Ya the actual rules of the game pretty much rely on you having access to Wish and Miracle for standard action (or less) Resurrections so people can get back into the fight when they bite the dust mid-combat at high levels.
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Legal rammifications enter into this heavilly.
Under a rational legal system, if someone murders someone, then that person is brought back to life, they're still guilty of murder (they did unlawfully kill that guy). But in other areas, it gets sketchy.
If I kill someone I know automatically reincarnates (A Four Winds style monk of 20th level), is it murder? I mean its not really killing him, its like forcibly reincarnating him. What if I know they have a clone? Murder or assault tied with a civil action requiring 1000gp per HD?
Don't go thinking that torts are a new thing that the medieval era knew nothing about.
What about trapping the soul? I can see a lawful kingdom (like psychotically lawful) insisting you serve your entire 50 year sentance, whether you die in the first thirty of it or not.
A king returning from the dead isn't nearly as much trouble as the economic and probate issues this opens up. Who owns property, how does it get transferred. If Grandpa dies and gets reincarnated does it still belong to him? If I inherited an item from my Great Grandpa and he gets brought back like 200 years after the fact what then?
What if an a shiftless adventuring type gets intentionally killed, then raised to dodge taxes on income? Or a perverse wizard who dies, arranges his resurrection after the fact so he can try to romance his great-grand children who probably are far removed from him on the tree by now..what would his kids end up?
If the king dies, and is brought back fifty years later during the reign of his son, and after some happy nuptuals with the queen (assume elves) ends up with a new son, does that new son have no standing, is he a prince, a duke or nothing? Did the Kingliness end with death? If the King and the Old King die does he get to pick up the crown, what about the New King's kids? What if he comes back 1000 years later and sires new offspring? Do they have primacy on the royal claim?
In common law you get declared legally dead after 7 years or if you disappear in circumstances that strongly suggest you're dead. What if you're an adventurer, disappear for five years, genuinely die and then come back. Do things still go off as if you died?
For that matter, do you need to sit in your own probate hearings?
Do Adventurers need to write 'In the event I return from my death, I leave myself..' in their wills?
This stuff gets crazy, but also interesting. A good way to show your setting is cosmopolitan or magically active is if they have laws on the books for this kinda nonsense. Since it probably came up at some point.
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Another fun note I thought of.
Be a criminal, be executed (lets assume by hanging so the body is 'intact').
Minions dig you up, and raise you.
Its now probably, entirely ok for you to walk around town. You afterall were justly executed (you were dead and everything), and therefore sentance of your crimes has been carried out.
Villain: *walks into an inn* Hello, I'm High Traitor Carcer and I'm back from my trip to the Nine Hells. I could really go for a beer. Muahahaha!
This assumes a kingdom based on laws, as opposed to one based on 'I'm the freaking CHIEF' style Kingship.
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This raises a disturbing thought regarding the older methods of execution (beheading, draw and quartering, etc).
That it was done to prevent the raise dead spell (damn near nothing can stop true res).
My own world gets around it by having the high priestesses of my death deity having an unlimited daily ability to kneel down next to a (non-undead) corpse and put a mystical Do-Not-Enter sign on it preventing its reanimation as undead or res/raise dead. Basically it fast tracks the soul for reward/punishment or their next incarnation (its complicated).
Apparently that ability really bolloxed up the Epic Level Campaign somebody ran with my players (and their PCs) while I was away.
Villain: X_X
Player: ...this is epic, they always come back in epic...
Player 2: Know that thing I keep telling you I'll do to you if you die to keep you from becoming a zombie?
*zonk!*
DM: ...crap...uh...erm...dragons swoop down on you!
Similar to an augmented variant of gentle repose+rest eternal spell (without GR's "you don't rot" clause)?
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The whole idea of “death should mean something” becomes meaningless when we all realize that D&D is a Game, Games should be Fun, and in order to have Fun you have to Play. Thereby, when a Player’s PC dies either you Raise him or he brings in another. Raising is preferable story-wise, and costs resources. Bringing in another costs continuity and actually increases party wealth. Not to mention, instead of an organic played-from-1st-PC we have a PC generated at that level, which can lead to some odd min/maxing.
The third alternative is “Sorry Bob, Knuckles is dead. You’re out of the campaign, we’ll let you know when the next one is starting, should be in about a year or so.’ Really?
"The thief, Black Leaf, did not find the poison trap, and I declare her dead."
"NO NOT BLACK LEAF! NO, NO, I'M GOING TO DIE!""Marcie, get out of here. YOU'RE DEAD! You don't exist any more."
And yet there are all these other roleplaying games out there that continue just fine without ANY resurrection mechanic. Vampire, Mage, Twilight 2000, Star Wars, the list goes on.
D&D/PF does without a resurrection mechanic until about 9th level.
Vampire and Mage are usually not as combat-heavy as D&D / PF (although they could certainly be played that way) and it's super-hard to kill a vampire unless you deliberately set out to do it.
I'm pretty sure a Mage could whip up a resurrection spell (some application of LIfe + Prime? I hated that system) and even if not, you could always come back as a wraith.
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"Yes, I realize I am a talking badger. But I really AM Lord Wimsey!"If somebody is brought back by Reincarnate
...I've wanted to play a grippli prince of human parents for a while now, come to think of it (similarly brought back with reincarnate). I figure an affluent family would use whatever methods available to prevent the death of an heir. Reincarnate probably wouldn't be their first choice, and finding a druid willing to cast it would be difficult, but in the scheme of things: wouldn't a parent do anything to bring back their child (especially when their family name, bloodline, and land holdings are at stake)?
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Well, that's your house rule, but the reincarnate spell explicitly contradicts this.
"The spell can bring back a creature that has died of old age."
A combination of reincarnate and miracle can keep a character going forever.
True. My house rule directly contradicts RAW. However, I have never seen a campaign that lasted long enough for this to be an issue.