Is it just me, or is there a subtle pressure on the DM to never have the enemy try to sunder a PC weapon? There's obvious reasons why the players would rather have monsters try to hit THEM than hit their weapons, so I won't go into that now. But I do get the feeling that players sort of operate on the assumption that the enemy will never try to sunder their weapons (or break their equipment). Maybe it's just IMC.
I even get a sort of vibe that having the monsters try to sunder weapons would be the equivalent of the DM "going nuclear", as described years ago by a WotC employee discussing overpowered spells like Time Stop and Gate. The idea was that these spells were "balanced" because players typically didn't abuse them for fear that the DM would start using them on the players, and vice-versa.
Except in the case of sundering weapons, the PCs don't have the option to retaliate in kind. I mean, sure, they COULD start sundering the weapons of the enemy, but that would mean destroying some of the loot they get from defeating them. And what does the DM care? The next batch of villains will have brand new weapons.
Any thoughts or comments on this dynamic?
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I let players know up-front the sunder policy.
If I am going to do it on occasion, I make a specific rule that they are allowed to sunder natural weapons on their enemies. A dragon who just had his claws chopped off is a suddenly less of a threat, after all. And since you can't loot natural weapons...
Mostly, though, I don't sunder. I work under the assumption the enemies also want the party's equipment (or don't have enough of a mind to sunder it). So it works as a disadvantage in roleplay both ways.
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I find it perfectly fine to sunder your players' weapons, just as long as you find a way to maintain their WPL. They should know that there is no insurance policy about their weapons and that they should be prepared (bachup weapons etc), but be kind and let them replace what they lose in the battle with something of at least equal value after the danger has passed.
In my experience, there's three big reasons players don't like sundering.
1: Loos of WBL. Nobody likes the idea that their character is going to be permanently weakened on account of a single good sunder roll. It would be sort of like if there were forms of ability damage that could just never, ever be healed in any way.
2: Fear of uselessness until they get a new weapon. With how expensive magic weapons are, even if your fighter keeps a backup weapon it's going to be a lot weaker than his primary. While 'useless' would be overstatement, any martial class is going to miss the to-hit and damage bonuses from losing their primary weapon.
3: Hurts martials more than casters. This is the other big issue. A fighter tends to have a lot more in the way of sunderable gear than a wizard, so certain players are going to be hit a lot harder by GMs who use sunder on a semi-regular basis. Usually the only thing a wizard needs to worry about having sundered is a cheap component pouch, while the fighter could lose the sword that a quarter of his WBL is tied into. The Fighter class can also be hit especially hard by sundering, since so many of their feats and class abilities are tied to a specific weapon/weapon group.
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It depends of the monster or npc. A Treant tactic literally relies on him making sure the melee fighters are not able to fight back, double damage to object, a treant with power attack is going to break your magical weapon like it is made of glass while summoning his trees buddies.
- Actually, a caster that had his spell component pouch or his bonded item sundered is into deep s**t. A fighter can always use a mundane backup weapon, the caster is just a glorified commoner until he make up for the loses after the battle.
Highly erroneous as sundering must be done in melee and many of them are unlikely to have it happen to them. Also you can always have a spare Spell Component pouch. The Concentration check for bonded objects is rather easy for any Wizard/Sorc who actually takes a measure for that.
Some spells don't have material components. A lot of folks take the familiar for the action economy.
Personally I don't like to deal with enemies who sunder. If I spot one in an adventure or module I usually replace them with something more interesting. Sundering messes with the gold distribution of the party. Suddenly someone doesn't have as much as the others and I dislike having to shove in a specific item to replace theirs so that they won't be crippled till they can replace their old item.
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Well, it's pretty much like throwing a Rust Monster at the party - something you do every once in a while just to keep them on their toes. Nothing will send a party into berserker mode like "those guys are trying to BREAK OUR STUFF!"
Use it sparingly, of course. A good time is when the party would be scared for another reason BESIDES "I'm going to have to spend GP to repair this/buy a new one." Case in point: Everybody just bought fancy new silver weapons to use against the vampire lord? Yeah, guess who taught his undead minions how to sunder.
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I always found that sundering was pointless. If enemies wanted to get rid of PC weapons, disarm does it quicker and more efficiently, and doesn't destroy equipment. I can see why players think that sundering is bad form, because it is more or less the GM making the enemies use a less efficient method of fighting to do long term damage to their characters and make them lose items that they probably have worked hard to get.
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I don't sunder for the same reason I don't use rust monsters. Let me quote an old 3e article on the subject ...
Ugh! A rust monster is a great way to strip away the party's metal gear. At CR 3, chances are it often faces fighter-types in heavy armor who have relatively poor Reflex saves. A fighter without armor is a sitting duck, and a party that faces one of these things ends up either seriously outclassed for the rest of the adventure or forced to return to town to buy more armor. Neither of those situations screams epic, fantasy adventure. The rust monster carries a big sign that says, "Stop adventuring or die!"
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I always found that sundering was pointless.
No, no, you've got it backwards - it's the WEAPONS that become pointless.
/rimshotEDIT: When it comes to rust monsters, I think the threat of a rust monster is what's important. Ideally, they should panic a bit and have to reassess their strategy - not actually have their gear destroyed. A barbarian that would charge headlong into a den of devils would hesitate if the path was guarded by rust monsters... which means the party can either find a long-range way to deal with the monsters, or take [insert alternate perilous path of DM's choice].
Of course, the PCs may be able to turn that to their advantage. Bandits giving you trouble? Minor Image a few rust monsters heading their way...
I don't sunder for the same reason I don't use rust monsters. Let me quote an old 3e article on the subject ...
Ugh! A rust monster is a great way to strip away the party's metal gear. At CR 3, chances are it often faces fighter-types in heavy armor who have relatively poor Reflex saves. A fighter without armor is a sitting duck, and a party that faces one of these things ends up either seriously outclassed for the rest of the adventure or forced to return to town to buy more armor. Neither of those situations screams epic, fantasy adventure. The rust monster carries a big sign that says, "Stop adventuring or die!"
I use rust monsters for a different purpose...
Which would scare you more? Seeing a rust monster running towards you... or seeing that rust monster suddenly fall down a deep shaft that wasn't there before, followed by a thick stone block that was part of the ceiling?
You tell me... would you be worried about rust monsters at that point?
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Generally when players encounter an enemy with Sunder in my campaign it's something built specifically for that purpose and its telegraphed waaaaay ahead of time.
For instance, there's a well known "Hero" who goes by the name of "The Master Smith". He's a Half-Giant Dwarf with a self-made-and-modified Maul of the Titans who goes around challenging higher power level heroes to duels and Sunders their weapons. His ego is such that he considers all weapons he hasn't personally forged to be 'inferior' and proves it by smashing them into shrapnel.
Generally the PC's have the option to anger him or not if they want the fight, and if they do certain 'bad' things and get put on the Bounty Board at the Adventurer's Guild, it's a possibility that he would come after him.
Random monsters may or may not have Sundering capability, but as their weapons will almost always be inferior to the PC's, there's very little chance of it being successful. I think the only instance where a player had a weapon get Sundered by a non-obvious enemy was when one them irritated a Vampire martial artist and she snapped the guy's sword like a twig.
In any event, it's not too hard to restore a damaged or broken magic item even should it happen. While it may depend on the campaign, ours have plenty of Artificers and the like who are able to put them back together for a tidy fee.
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This spell functions as mending, except that it repairs 1d6 points of damage per level when cast on a construct creature (maximum 5d6).
Make whole can fix destroyed magic items (at 0 hit points or less), and restores the magic properties of the item if your caster level is at least twice that of the item. Items with charges (such as wands) and single-use items (such as potions and scrolls) cannot be repaired in this way. When make whole is used on a construct creature, the spell bypasses any immunity to magic as if the spell did not allow spell resistance.
dm can sunder it, party cleric or friendly cleric in town can fix it...
dm can sunder it, party cleric or friendly cleric in town can fix it...This spell functions as mending, except that it repairs 1d6 points of damage per level when cast on a construct creature (maximum 5d6).
Make whole can fix destroyed magic items (at 0 hit points or less), and restores the magic properties of the item if your caster level is at least twice that of the item. Items with charges (such as wands) and single-use items (such as potions and scrolls) cannot be repaired in this way. When make whole is used on a construct creature, the spell bypasses any immunity to magic as if the spell did not allow spell resistance.
I think the problem is that once a magical item gets powerful enough, you're going to have some problems finding someone who has a caster level high enough to fix it. A mere +3 sword requires an 18th level caster to cast Make Whole on it.
Past that you're going to need a highly specialized mythic character to cast the spell, and good luck convincing your GM that you should be able to buy a caster level 24 Make Whole scroll at a store.
Twice the item's caster level isn't easy. You'd need to be 12th level to mend a mere +2 sword, 18th for a +3 sword. It's not a problem for minor stuff like +1 or mere silver weapons, but they're not the things the players worry about.
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dm can sunder it, party cleric or friendly cleric in town can fix it...This spell functions as mending, except that it repairs 1d6 points of damage per level when cast on a construct creature (maximum 5d6).
Make whole can fix destroyed magic items (at 0 hit points or less), and restores the magic properties of the item if your caster level is at least twice that of the item. Items with charges (such as wands) and single-use items (such as potions and scrolls) cannot be repaired in this way. When make whole is used on a construct creature, the spell bypasses any immunity to magic as if the spell did not allow spell resistance.
I think the problem is that once a magical item gets powerful enough, you're going to have some problems finding someone who has a caster level high enough to fix it. A mere +3 sword requires an 18th level caster to cast Make Whole on it.
Past that you're going to need a highly specialized mythic character to cast the spell, and good luck convincing your GM that you should be able to buy a caster level 24 Make Whole scroll at a store.
Weapons/gear breaking is not a permanent loss in pathfinder. Make whole is a 2nd level wizard/cleric spell that can fix anything broken. Someone in your party will be able to do it. If you cant cast it yet, you don't own anything expensive that you really care about if it gets broken so whatever.
It takes so much damage to effectively sunder anything that it is a fairly ineffectual tactic. At low levels just breaking the 10 hardness on a weapon can be challenging. At high levels the fighter is carrying around a +4 adamantine greatsword with hardness 28 and 60hp. If I'm level 2 and you are hitting for over 10 damage a swing, I'd much rather you were going for my sword than for me.
The caster level on make whole only matters if the weapon is completely destroyed. A "mere" +3 greatsword has 16 hardness and 50hp. The fighter will kill the guy trying to sunder his sword long before the guy will completely destroy it.
Sundering can be irritating, but the PCs will repair any damage the next day so it's essentially on par with being poisoned or diseased (also a second level spell to remove ability damage). They have to get really unlucky for them to suffer any permanent damage, and that damage is only as permanent as "permanent" negative levels are; a high level caster can fix it.
I prefer casting Shatter on the Cleric's holy symbol, =)
The broken condition is hardly the "permanent loss" of much of anything. Fixing broken items is nearly trivial in Pathfinder; sundering something is a great way to alter the flow of a fight while having minimal long-term repercussions.
I use sunder, but very rarely and only when it'd make sense. For example, I once had an ogre try to attack the party paladin in full plate and when he couldn't hit him, I had the ogre yell "I'll crack you like a nut, holy man!" and attempt a sunder attempt. Mind you, he wasn't built with Improved Sunder in mind, so the paladin got an attack of opportunity on the ogre.
Personally, for weapons, I prefer Disarm or Steal. But man, watch out of Bebiliths.
I only use sunder in non to low magic campaigns.
A fair point. In super high magic campaigns where every peasant is walking around with a +5 longsword, sundering doesn't make a lot of sense.
On the other hand, if the cloud giant who is being peppered with arrows by the flippy trippy elf who is right there in melee range ("Huzzah! I have FEATS and therefore you get NO attacks of opportunity!"), he might realize that he only needs to do 10 points of damage to the elf's bow (5 hardness plus 5 hit points) in order to shut him down. If he's seen several of his comrades try and fail to KILL the elf by smacking him in the head, he might consider going after the bow if he isn't reasonably sure that it's going to be a super duper enchanted MAGIC bow.
By the way, is it true that only the actual "plus" of a weapon or suit of armor adds to its hardness and hit points? Or do equivalents like Flaming or Keen add as well? I think they do not, but I have a suspicion that players will argue otherwise.
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In 3.5, sunder was a horrible option. If you did a sunder and reduced the item's hit points to 0, it was destroyed. Do not pass GO! Do not collect $200. Go directly to destroyed.
Fast forward to Pathfinder. The developers gave us the broken condition. And there was much rejoicing!
This makes sunder a more viable option in Pathfinder than it ever was in the previous edition. This is because even when you deal enough hit points to an item with a sunder attempt to destroy it, you actually have the choice to not do so.
You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent in place of a melee attack in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Sunder feat, or a similar ability, attempting to sunder an item provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack is successful, you deal damage to the item normally. Damage that exceeds the object's Hardness is subtracted from its hit points. If an object has equal to or less than half its total hit points remaining, it gains the broken condition. If the damage you deal would reduce the object to less than 0 hit points, you can choose to destroy it. If you do not choose to destroy it, the object is left with only 1 hit point and the broken condition.
Not destroying it means its just broken with 1 hit point. Broken is easier to fix than destroyed. More importantly, a broken weapon can still be used.
Items that have taken damage in excess of half their total hit points gain the broken condition, meaning they are less effective at their designated task. The broken condition has the following effects, depending upon the item.
If the item is a weapon, any attacks made with the item suffer a –2 penalty on attack and damage rolls. Such weapons only score a critical hit on a natural 20 and only deal ×2 damage on a confirmed critical hit.
If the item is a suit of armor or a shield, the bonus it grants to AC is halved, rounding down. Broken armor doubles its armor check penalty on skills.
If the item is a tool needed for a skill, any skill check made with the item takes a –2 penalty.
If the item is a wand or staff, it uses up twice as many charges when used.
If the item does not fit into any of these categories, the broken condition has no effect on its use. Items with the broken condition, regardless of type, are worth 75% of their normal value. If the item is magical, it can only be repaired with a mending or make whole spell cast by a character with a caster level equal to or higher than the item's. Items lose the broken condition if the spell restores the object to half its original hit points or higher. Non-magical items can be repaired in a similar fashion, or through the Craft skill used to create it. Generally speaking, this requires a DC 20 Craft check and 1 hour of work per point of damage to be repaired. Most craftsmen charge one-tenth the item's total cost to repair such damage (more if the item is badly damaged or ruined).
So use sunder and despair not! The ability to destroy/not destroy lies squarely in your hands.
Fixing destroyed magic items is cake.
Make whole can fix destroyed magic items (at 0 hit points or less), and restores the magic properties of the item if your caster level is at least twice that of the item.
It's a 2nd level spell.
Don't forget, magic weapons and armor get +2 to hardness and +10 to hit points for every +1 of enhancement.
It's gonna take a lot of damage to sunder a magic weapon or armor to the point of destruction. Certainly long enough for the wielder to stab the foe to death with their still very intact weapon.
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GMs really try and sunder? I'm way too busy just trying to kill the PCs as is dont think my baddies would have time to live long enough to take advantage. I guess taking weapons and equipment out of the equation may help me achieve my goal. I guess I should reconsider my tactics.
Rust monsters are lots of fun. Usually only comes up once or twice if at all a campaign. Hardly worth worring about.
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GMs really try and sunder? I'm way too busy just trying to kill the PCs as is dont think my baddies would have time to live long enough to take advantage. I guess taking weapons and equipment out of the equation may help me achieve my goal. I guess I should reconsider my tactics.
Rust monsters are lots of fun. Usually only comes up once or twice if at all a campaign. Hardly worth worring about.
When it comes to sundering equipment...I like to remind my players that some monsters can be very dangerous without trying too hard. Gray Oozes are probably the best way to teach player to adapt their tactics of sending fighter first into a room full of monster, reflex save for your weapon before they are destroyed!
In a 2nd edition game I was running, I did a variant where a broken magic item would result in a wild spell surge. Such things as portals to the Elemental Plane of Fire or polymorph were possible. Once, in a nightmare sequence that the players didn't realize was a nightmare, one of the players turned on the others. After killing the wizard/party leader, he snapped a magic wand that his apprentice was using... which according to the spell surge table polymorphed her into a Rust Monster.
At which point the high-level fighter and pretty much only other player who could face the betraying character proceeded to focus all attention on killing the rust monster who was actually a party member rather than the person who killed the man she loved and caused his apprentice to BECOME a rust monster.
It was quite pathetic actually. Rust monsters don't go after fresh metal if they currently have a good supply of rust to eat. She could have sacrificed a shield or another blade, left the apprentice alive, and gone after the true threat. *shakes head*
Reading this thread reminds me just how much the game has changed in the last couple of decades. Don't use sunder, and if you do, make sure you give the person that lost a weapon an equivalent weapon right away. Ick.
Fixing destroyed magic items is cake.
Make whole can fix destroyed magic items (at 0 hit points or less), and restores the magic properties of the item if your caster level is at least twice that of the item.It's a 2nd level spell.
A +3 weapon requires a caster level of 18 to fix. Which isn't found in any metropolis if the Spellcasting services table is read. 8th level spells are the highest they go so you're out of luck for fixing swords if there isn't an 18th level caster hanging around that you know about.
Absalom has 9th level casting services.
Absalom has 9th level casting services.
Long way to go to fix a weapon. I dug some more info up and found that any Metropolis with the Magical quality will do the trick. A shame that they tend to be far from one another and some will flat out not be able to do the trick.
It's a short trip to anyone with greater teleport.
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One campaign I was in; I was playing a Half-Orc Monk and our cleric was a Warforged. Coming across rust monsters meant having to run interference for the cleric...GMs really try and sunder? I'm way too busy just trying to kill the PCs as is dont think my baddies would have time to live long enough to take advantage. I guess taking weapons and equipment out of the equation may help me achieve my goal. I guess I should reconsider my tactics.
Rust monsters are lots of fun. Usually only comes up once or twice if at all a campaign. Hardly worth worring about.
I love it. My only experience with Eberron was DDo but warfogred always ran like hell when a rust monster showed up. :)
It's a short trip to anyone with greater teleport.
Still its a bit of a break from the action.
It's a short trip to anyone with greater teleport.
Chances are at the level you have at highest a +3 weapon, your party won't have Greater Teleport.
So, Buri, where do you find the 24th level caster to fix your +4 sword?
Or 30th for +5?
This isn't Forgotten Realms, where it seems like everyone and their grandma has epic levels. There are no rules in PF for characters above 20th. Guidelines exist, at best.
So, Buri, where do you find the 24th level caster to fix your +4 sword?
Or 30th for +5?
This isn't Forgotten Realms, where it seems like everyone and their grandma has epic levels. There are no rules in PF for characters above 20th. Guidelines exist, at best.
Definitely could use a Mythic Make Whole spell for this. Wonder if Legendary Games has already made one...
So, Buri, where do you find the 24th level caster to fix your +4 sword?
Or 30th for +5?
This isn't Forgotten Realms, where it seems like everyone and their grandma has epic levels. There are no rules in PF for characters above 20th. Guidelines exist, at best.
Meh? Do you *want* a game where high level magic items can be repaired with a mere spell? Be smart with your play. Ask the right questions with knowledge checks. If you've got an item you *really* want back, a wish could do it. Even with a 25k diamond down the drain that's a lot cheaper than rebuilding those items.
Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result.
It's a short trip to anyone with greater teleport.Chances are at the level you have at highest a +3 weapon, your party won't have Greater Teleport.
Level 11, WBL 82k, weapon portion comes to 20,500 there abouts. That's a +3 weapon. You can get GT at level 13. Not a huge wait. Even at level 11, a 7th spell level scrolls is very UMD-able if you're trying to plan ahead.
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Don't high level magic items also have a hella high Break DC and magically-improved hardness? Forget the 24th-level caster, where do you find the guy who can actually BREAK a +4 sword? Never mind the fact that by 6th or 7th level, everyone's using mithril or adamantine weapons just to get around DR anyway. If your Infinity+1 Sword of Awesomeness gets broken, you don't worry about getting it fixed because you're not surviving the encounter with the guy who broke it.
Snapping a wand or shattering potions is easier, and permanent, but then those items are consumables. Most players I've seen are less shaken by losing those things, since they knew they were going to "lose" them when they used them up anyway.