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So is racial "playability" simply subject to DM discretion alone, or are there any suggestions or rules in the books for balancing races above 10 RP?
Specifically, I'm looking at possibly playing a Centaur in the future, if my DM and I can balance it against the rest of the party somehow.
But perhaps more importantly, I'm wondering how other DMs handle this.
Any advice is appreciated.
The way I'd do it, is develop a full 20 level racial paragon class, such as those offered by Rite Publishing in their "In the Company of..." series, such as In the Company of Monsters. If you look at In the Company of Minotaurs, the bestiary listing of the minotaur indicates that it is a CR4 monster. In the racial paragon class, at 4th level the minotaur is equivalent to it's bestiary version, however, from 1st - 3rd the minotaurs capabilities is less than the bestiary version. Of course from 5th - 20th level the minotaur levels up in size, feats and capabilities.
Although creating such a new class is no easy task, it's a great venture into developing your own creations and learning the skills of game development.
Otherwise I never use 3x ECL/LA with Pathfinder. IMO, ECL/LA was one of the things wrong with 3x mechanics, and I'd never go back to it.
Generally speaking "races above 10 RP" don't need a level adjustment. RP is, for the most part, utterly meaningless as far as the power of the race is concerned until you reach massive point values (ala the Gargoyle, at like 35 points IIRC).
Case in point, the Human, the most powerful race in the game, comes out at 9 RP or thereabouts.
The Centaur specifically, however, IS a bit on the powerful side for a mostly "Non-Monstrous" party.
Dropping the Advanced Str/Dex/Con +2 trait, and dropping the Natural Armor bonus to +1 goes a long way towards fixing that IMO.
You're left with:
+2 Str/Wis
4 legs
40 ft. speed
Large size (other possible unbalancer, but workable)
Darkvision
+1 Natural Armor
Compare other races, like an Aasimar, Dwarf, or Human, and you're looking pretty good.
I'm a bit iffy on the large size thing. My gut instinct says Natural Reach is super good at 1st level but that it would balance itself out by 5th or so. Maybe have it as a scaling thing. You're a "Petite Centaur" from 1-4, and at 5th you grow to Large (without the stat adjustments though) if you want.
Considering that Centaurs are only large because of their big butts, I would say that they're still restricted to Medium weapons and don't get reach. Their human torso aren't any bigger than a normal human's, IIRC, so there's no reason they should get those benefits.
There's also this version, available on the OGC:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/little-red-goblin-races#TOC-C entaur
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They do kind of have a LA, they just don't call it that.
Sidebar - Challenging Advanced and Monstrous Races
So for a Centaur, they have a +2 LA until the party hits 6, then it drops to +1 until they hit 11, at which point they catch up to the rest of the party.
I believe CRs are effective ECLs in Pathfinder with the catch being that each level beyond the CR, up to half of the CR, the PC gains an extra level.
NOTE: This is what I remember from the CRB, double check it before assuming I am correct.
So, the character cannot start at level 1, but you could finagle it by having no class levels and 2 negative levels.
Level 2 is negative level class level.
Level 3 is no negative levels or class levels.
Level 4 is 1 class level.
Between level 4 and 5, about half way, you gain a class level.
So at level 4.5 you have 2 class levels.
At level 5 you have 3 class levels.
The centaur doesn't gain any extra free levels beyond the extra at 4.5 due to 3/2=1.5, so horray you.
NOTE: This is what I remember from the CRB, double check it before assuming I am correct.
Note, since these are racials I would call bullcrap if you tried to use magical knack to or any other source of extra casting levels to gain advantage using the racials.
I'm a bit iffy on the large size thing. My gut instinct says Natural Reach is super good at 1st level but that it would balance itself out by 5th or so. Maybe have it as a scaling thing. You're a "Petite Centaur" from 1-4, and at 5th you grow to Large (without the stat adjustments though) if you want.
Also, I just want to point something out, the Large Size for a centaur is based on the QUADRUPED body type, NOT the BI-PED body type. This means he doesn't gain any extra reach from size.
Space = 10-ft, Reach = 5-ft.
Playing a normal centaur should be fine. For statistics either go with the Centaur statistics, or tell your DM to apply the heroic NPC array in the most fitting and beneficial way for Centaurs, then subtract the array for the Racial Bonuses, also since it has 4HD it has a +1 to one attribute, so he gets to pick what racial goes down 1.
Do note: YOUR DM SHOULD DO THIS, not you. You should have absolutely no say on what the racials of the centaur should be.
Centaur
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 12
vs
NPC
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
So probably
+2 con, +2 Wis, +4 cha.
The Centaur has the HD to have 2 feats, which it has, so you would gain these as racials.
Also, do note:
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Undersized Weapons (Ex)Although a centaur is Large, its upper torso is the same size as that of a Medium humanoid. As a result, they wield weapons as if they were one size category smaller than their actual size (Medium for most centaurs).
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LA and ECL were absolutely terrible mechanics.
Drow (used for example because they are the iconic dark-mirror to PC parties), which are supposed to be as powerful as regular PCs, with the added edge of having special racial tricks, end up actually being less powerful than a human of equivalent level.
The LA/ECL rules assumed that something like a once a day Darkness effect is worth the same at 1st level as it is at 15th.
I'm really, really glad pathfinder scrapped the whole concept.
A great house rule I've seen for leveling the field is to add Point Buy and Race points together in terms of cost. For most games that's going to be 30 points. Then, if you pick a 10 point race, you have 20 points to spend on attributes.
In a 35 point game, you could have a Koblold with very high attributes, and a Gargoyle with only their racial stat bonuses.
ECL was IMOP a faulty system and pathfinder ditent improved on it. There is a charter in berstiary 1 about monsters as PC and those rules are no good if you like balance.
Also, I just want to point something out, the Large Size for a centaur is based on the QUADRUPED body type, NOT the BI-PED body type. This means he doesn't gain any extra reach from size.
Space = 10-ft, Reach = 5-ft.
Ah, I see. I thought centaurs had something going on because they were quadrupeds who still had arms and such-like.
Anywho, that's even better. Remove the extra stat boosts and maybe halve the NA and you're fine without an LA equivalent.
If you're dead set on playing a full on Centaur, I'd suggest dropping your point buy a bit (you have an equivalent of anywhere from 6 to 21 extra points there with the +2 to Str/Dex/Con). If everyone's using 20, you use 15, if everyone uses 25, you use 20, and so on. It'd take more work than I'm willing to do to figure out the "sweet spot" for point buy reduction where your ability boosts equally match the PB values. 5 less should be enough though to put you in a reasonable range.
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LA and ECL and Racial HD were pretty terrible things. In fact even in Savage Species of 3.5, they had said things like "Well that +1 Nat armor that gave the race a LA +1 might look good at level 1, but by level 5, its pretty meaningless."
Pretty much just drop the advanced stat bonuses and you go to 16 RP instead of 28.
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Often a good rule of thumb is just using either the Hit Dice or CR of the monster, whichever is higher.
Just for the record, this is the base Pathfinder system: Use the HD as your starting level, then add class levels.
Essentially, Pathfinder has ECL, it just doesn't have LA. That plus the "Challenging monstrous races" chart CrackedOzy referenced (while meant for parties) is actually pretty similar to the old LA system, combined with the Unearthed Arcana system of reducing your LA. Although it's pretty generous, at 10 RP per LA (plus faster reduction). Also, it actually speeds up leveling, since it provides adequate challenge, but that provides extra experience points as well.
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Essentially, Pathfinder has ECL, it just doesn't have LA. That plus the "Challenging monstrous races" chart CrackedOzy referenced (while meant for parties) is actually pretty similar to the old LA system, combined with the Unearthed Arcana system of reducing your LA. Although it's pretty generous, at 10 RP per LA (plus faster reduction). Also, it actually speeds up leveling, since it provides adequate challenge, but that provides extra experience points as well.
I completely forgot about the Unearthed Arcana rules.
So if I'm understanding those rules, a Centaur would have a +2 LA (based on 28 RP) that would be reduced by 1 at level 6 (for 7,000 xp) and level 9 (for another 9,000 xp).
Is that correct? And other than spending the experience, what statistics, if any, should change when the cost is paid at levels 6 and 9?
Here is a better option, imo, build a Centaur using the Race Builder, and Voila! Now balance according to race points, and not give the centaur any racials.
Centaur have 4 hit dice and CR 3, so playing on starting as a 4th level character seems pretty reasonable.
No offense meant, but this is terrible advice. There's no amount of abilities I've ever seen from any monster that would make their Hit Dice equal to the same number of Class Levels.
Hit Dice rocket upward at a rate far faster than CR. Using Hit Dice as a basis for Level Adjustment is part of why the ECL system was so bad.
A 5th level character is a CR 5. That's what CR means. Whatever CR something is, they are equivalent to a character of that level. My advice would be to simply use CR, regardless of Hit Dice.
Please note that CR is only taking into account combat statistics. An ability like Scent is useful in combat, but far more useful out of combat, trivializing many investigative encounters.
So, if you are going to use CR as a basis for ECL, that works pretty well, though there may be abilities like Scent that are worth more out of combat than in. Each GM will have to weigh them on a case by case basis. My advice is to err on the side of a lower ECL. Even races like Drow Nobles, who seem super powerful at first level, pretty much even out by about fifth.
Powerful Races are only ever used to make rogue-types or fighter-types anyway. You'll never see someone want to play a caster with an +4 level adjustment. Because after about 5th level casters quickly start outpacing non-casters, any added benefit a combatant gains from playing a powerful race will still not be as impressive as just playing a human wizard.
You'll have big points for style though. :)
Often a good rule of thumb is just using either the Hit Dice or CR of the monster, whichever is higher.
Centaur have 4 hit dice and CR 3, so playing on starting as a 4th level character seems pretty reasonable. The better base stats are paid for by the fact monstrous humanoid hit dice are bad. Reduced class progression by 4 levels is going to matter for everyone. If anything, this is a little weak.
With a lot of creatures this actually works well and is a lot better than using LA. Now, there are certainly some monsters that have unusually powerful abilities if players had them. You need to be careful about those. Otherwise it isn't a big deal.
Save for you having a colossal problem.
A level 1 PC has a CR equal to his class levels. Therefore a level 3 Fighter is a CR 3.You will end up with CR inequality where the centaur will be a level behind everyone in power if you treat him like he is a CR 4 instead while everyone else is CR 3.
Now if you mean
Bob the level 4 fighter
Jil the level 4 Cleric
Seb the level 4 Rogue
Rob the level 1 Centaur
then that is acceptable.
If instead you mean
Bob the level 4 fighter
Jil the level 4 Cleric
Seb the level 4 Rogue
Rob the Centaur as it is written in the book without any NPC or PC levels,
then that is not acceptable as Rob would be one level in power behind Bob, Jil, and Seb.
I think it's a good thing that PF doesn't have a real LA/ECL system, because WotC's version wasn't that well implemented. Some monsters were actually made weaker because of the ECL, and a few races were made stronger.
The problem is that the ECL was ALWAYS higher than a monster's HD and CR, so monstrous players were always behind non-monstrous ones. Their abilities also didn't increase that much and finally, it became a chore to attribute EXP points.
Pathfinder's "version" looks better, but it seems only to apply to 0-HD races, not actual monsters.
What I think is funny is that despite all the hate the ECL/LA system receives, it's still better than the other options. Most of the other options, including the system in Pathfinder, simply re-create it and call it a different name, but give you hazy rules and far less options for playing monstrous creatures because they don't write down what the numbers ARE for different creatures, forcing the DM to do more work.
Pathfinder even recommends you use something 'similar' to adjust the power levels, but just reduce it over time. Back in the day, we called that "LA Buyoff".
In our campaigns, the RP serves as a good rough estimation of ECL (which we still use). However, our issue with it is that the ECL system used by the original D20, while fine, didn't take into consideration that the Racial Hit Die were inferior to class levels and yet were still tracked separately. If anything, the Racial Hit Dice ARE THE BUYOFF for many of the abilities.
Some things, like Drow, have no Racials and have a bunch of extra abilities. These don't make THAT huge of a difference in a single fight they aren't expected to survive, which is why the CR and ECL are different. When players use them, having access to this stuff early is a serious problem. Hence, the LA, and the use of LA Buyoff needs to be considered since at higher levels those abilities are chump change compared to what most PC's can do.
On the other hand, some things are actually inferior due to Racial Hit Dice and shouldn't have level adjustment at all. The Bugbear is a great example. The +3 natural armor, Scent, and +6 in better-than-average stats are MORE than paid for by the 3 Racial Hit Die of Humanoid. Throwing that extra +1 ECL on top of it is an insult and explains why no one in the history of D&D has played one as a PC. If anything, this should be an 'optional' ECL/LA. As in, you either play it has having to spend the 3 Humanoid levels, or you get rid of that but give them a +1 ECL due to the stat boosts. Incidentally, this is basically what Pathfinder tried to do to EVERYTHING in the Advanced Race Guide--scrape off all Racial Hit Dice (if they exist) and make a pseudo-LA that gives suggestions to the DM.
But, there is one last example--things that have both Racial Hit Die and special abilities and traits which REQUIRE them to spend both on Hit Die and LA due to the power level. Most of the true Dragons, for instance. Oh look, it's an unarmed melee class AND a spellcaster at the same time AND has special abilities which grants it numerous options in a fight. Stuff like this is understandably tough to balance, and it seems like they just went overboard to make it undesirable to attempt.
Hopefully someday the guys at Paizo try to create their version of a "Savage Species". The Advanced Race Guide was a great step forward here, but I don't see it really happening until they try to tackle the complicated issues. Just because ECL/LA is considered 'bad' doesn't meant it's not the best option... someone should just try and approach it again with the consideration of how sucky Racial Hit Dice can be and institute Buyoff as an actual core rule.
Sorry to ramble. Almost done!
There are two approaches then, to the Centaur. The first is Taka Ooka Nin's, and I recommend it due to its ease and speed of use. Just make some racial trait that's like "Powerful Build", but in reverse... you use a smaller weapon size than your creature. The PFSRD lists this as "Undersized Weapon", so sure, use that--but in return you get a 'kickback' of negative RP to spend on other stuff. Don't bother with the Racial Hit Dice at all. As a player, this is probably what you want.
The other is if your DM wants you to have Racial Hit Die, in which case s/he needs to judge whether or not that 'buys back' all the racial bonuses. I'd be inclined to say 'no' and still force a +1 LA onto it, but allow that to be bought back later. It's your DM's call, though.
I completely forgot about the Unearthed Arcana rules.
So if I'm understanding those rules, a Centaur would have a +2 LA (based on 28 RP) that would be reduced by 1 at level 6 (for 7,000 xp) and level 9 (for another 9,000 xp).
Is that correct? And other than spending the experience, what statistics, if any, should change when the cost is paid at levels 6 and 9?
That is correct. Oddly (and perhaps unintentionally), "paying" that xp (in 3.5) lost you absolutely nothing (since you were taking off "a level" at the same time that you paid a level's worth of xp). So in my game, I required 2x the listed amount (so that you were really giving up a level of progression to drop your LA).
No other stats change when buying off LA.