To the Op no imo not at all.
One thing people for is that nowhere does it say that when you sleep your fall down and are prone. It says in the spell description "Sleeping creatures are not helpless". As well you can wake a creature under a slumber hex with a standard action or if the creature takes damage. Imo I think people assume that as soon as you fall victim to the Sleep spell that you collapse on the floor as if one was sleeping in bed. Nowhere does it say that in the spell. Since it's not in the spell description I don't consider anyone under the effects of a sleep hex prone.
SLEEP
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area one or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 HD of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell's point of origin are affected first. HD that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted. Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action). Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures.
Something Something Balors with elvish armies.
Watch this.
If slumber Hex was uniquely game changing, then half-elves, dragons, and elves would be naturally selected as superior. Then the use of slumber hex would fall and the species would re-diversify. Once they do, people will still avoid the slumber hex because of how uselessness it is against the "Big Three".
BAM! At best the slumber hex is temporarily game changing and then falls back to irrelevancy and then obscurity.
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Well, here are a few assumptions (I know, I'm assuming) about the majority of campaign worlds.
NPC classes are more common than PC classes.
Arcane casters are the rarest classes among NPC's.
Core Rules classes are more common than expansion classes.
The chances of meeting that witch in the hamlet are exceedingly rare, considering that if it has an arcane caster AT ALL it is far more likely to meet a wizard, sorcerer, or bard than a witch. And then it is far more likely to meet an adept than any of them. There is also a slim chance that the arcane caster in a given town is a summoner or a magus, but the summoner at least is less likely to be met than a witch is. If we get to the point of having a witch at all, then the chances of that first level witch having had taken the sleep hex rather than cauldron or healing (a frontier town with a hostile border of same level enemies will get far, far more mileage out of a healing hex) or any of the other choices they can take.
Remember, NPC's are not always built to be optimized for combat scenarios unless they see them. Normally this means an encounter for the players to face.
So we are dealing with a slim chance of a town having a witch with the sleep hex (I'll be generous and claim a 5% chance, since many game rules won't let things be less common than that on a general basis), then they have to have the right setup to be able to kill that wandering giant (which is also pretty slim). Not likely to be world-changing.
Can I refer you to an earlier post:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qi6d&page=5?Is-the-Slumber-hex-uniquely-ga me-changing#209
Beyond that, if it turns out to be a good tactic, and a necessary tactic, both of which have been hotly debated, then I would suggest that the incidence of witches with slumber hex would rise.
Richard
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Something Something Balors with elvish armies.
Watch this.
If slumber Hex was uniquely game changing, then half-elves, dragons, and elves would be naturally selected as superior. Then the use of slumber hex would fall and the species would re-diversify. Once they do, people will still avoid the slumber hex because of how uselessness it is against the "Big Three".
BAM! At best the slumber hex is temporarily game changing and then falls back to irrelevancy and then obscurity.
Game-changing doesn't mean overpowering, but if I accept your scenario then Slumber Hex still effects a change in the game world because it causes the emergence of a Big Three. The fact that the source of the change then disappears into obscurity doesn't mean it hasn't changed the world. And if people forget about it and the Big Three start to lose their importance, the cycle happens again.
Richard
I'm sure slumber hex looks awesome when your other abilities are being a 4th level investigator in a 6th level party. Ah, dear sweet investigator.
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In a world where CR=APL+8 creatures use tactics such as charging the person with no armor and probably very few weapons on him/her because he/she is probably a caster and there is a good chance that he/she can be killed in one charge and might pull out a SOD, or flattening villages with rocks from half a kilometer away; a world where first level characters with d6HD get killed before they get within a mile of a Balor due to one of the many many things that will be near the Balor and can do more than Twenty damage in one strike, and even if they could get so close to the balor, would probably fail due to the 5% chance and then die, slumber is not uniquely game-changing.
Is slumber OP? Sometimes. There are a large heap of creatures that are flat-out immune to it, and then the group of classes that are practically immune to will saves [Cleric, Paladin, and Monk come to mind]. I'd only argue it is powerful because it does allow an SOD that doesn't consume resources, but it also takes up a standard action that could be used to cast a spell or use a wand, and it can only be used 1/day so even those creatures with no or negative will saves will always have a 5% success rate. Its a great ability, and I have seen it break a couple of encounters, but I've also seen it many times as a waste of a full caster's standard action. I would rate it as powerful.
In summary, you can rig situations where a couple of first level PCs can kill monsters with much higher CRs yes. But those encounters must be rigged. Believe it or not, rigged encounters don't change games.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a 1st level Witch (with Slumber) and a 1st level Fighter encountered a Frost Giant (toe-to-toe), who would win?
Prior to the Slumber Hex, going back right to the beginnings of D&D, the answer would be the Frost Giant - hands down, no contest.
Now, it's 50/50. Pretty much - allowing for the initiative roll (which the Witch ought to win) and the coup-de-gras (which the Giant ought to fail, especially if the fighter has a Greataxe).
I know that Slumber Hex has been debated before, but it does seem like quite a big deal to me. It certainly spells the demise of the solitary monster encounter - unless it's immune to sleep.
It also means there's a massive difference between a party with a Witch with Slumber and one without. Sure, the Witch might on balance not be out of balance (not sure about that, but whatever), however having one on board makes quite a bit difference to the way that a number of encounters are going to play out.
Richard
This situation is basically bunk. In a hypothetical world where a giant and a fighter happen to grow from giant and fighter seeds in the ground in such a way that the fighter and the giant are both within 5 ft. of each other just because, and the witch being within 30 ft. of the giant, and assuming that the naked (IE - none of his treasure actually being used for equipment), fails his saving throw against a DC 14 will save, after losing Initiative to both the Witch and the Fighter.
Unfortunately, this just doesn't happen. The fighter or witch would likely be dead before they could even get within 30 ft. Ranged attacks from giants suuuuuck for low level PCs. Even the fighter likely dies a horrible death the moment the giant either closes to melee or he does (because giants have more reach and will likely 1-shot the fighter at 1st level).
This isn't risk/reward, this is stupidity with the hope that all the planets will come into alignment in such a way as to allow you to perform a coup de grace on the giant.
Meanwhile, drow poison is 75 gp / dose and has a minimum of 5% chance to knock anything not immune to poison unconscious for 1 hour. I've seen PCs specializing in poison take out the silliest of enemies with a well placed poisoned arrow.
Slumber is decent at best. It's decently good at being an attempt at a coup de grace if your melee is already in range. It's not exceptionally great, and you can only try it 1/enemy. Cackle doesn't extend the duration of it either. So you're out of combat 1 round if you fail, or never if you succeed. You can't keep attempting it against the same enemy.
But your example is grossly biased anyway. It's stacked in the party's favor, with an enemy that has been cherry-picked for having an awful will save, coupled with ignoring any tactical options the giant has or any situations for how the giant would have even gotten into this mess.
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Why do people keep saving slumber hex costs no resources? It costs you a standard action, and you get just one use per day for each enemy you encounter. It's actually costs very precious resources.
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First, this has been bugging me, and others have touched on it, but I've not seen it noted outright.
Villagers.
Most of them - the vast majority of them - are NPC classed, as others have noted. But... why?
All-Seeing Eye noted that they can't just pick and choose from the handbooks like PCs can.
More on that: why aren't all commoners just sorcerers? Isn't that a better trade up in every way? Or, if their charisma means they wouldn't get anything from it, why not become a wizard? Even at INT 10, cantrips are hecka useful. Or even... witch? Or, presuming they somehow dumped both INT and CHA, a cleric or druid? Or any PC class at all? It is a 100% improvement in their daily life, survival, and other things they care about.
The reasons are simple, if varied.
- Sorcerers: they don't have the right bloodlines, or it doesn't manifest
- Alchemists/Fighters/Wizards: they lack the proper training
- Clerics/Oracles/Witches: the patron doesn't choose them
Pick from the above three reasons, as needed, for all the other classes.
But let's just presume that all of them don't dump INT, and choose witch... somehow.
Then, let's look at their Hex Options.
Now, bear in mind, these are simply commoners who, instead of the commoner class, took witch instead. Thus, they're going to be focused on raising cattle, growing crops, and putting their precious skill points into those kinds of things.
For those that would normally Handle Animal, they have the Charm hex, and climbing could be handled by the Fly hex. Riding... well, maybe not all of them would be witches. :)
But what would be better hexes for any or all of these witches to take?
Aura of Purity (man, those negated diseases!)
Coven (presuming they can find a non-out-to-eat-them hag)
Cauldron (it only takes a year's salary to afford a raise dead, so it's unlikely that potions would be above the bar)
Feral Speech (Why is the cow acting oddly? What's that boy, Timmy fell into a well? I've warned you horse, you need to shape up... or else!)
Flight (though this one only comes online at later levels, though it gives a sweet bonus to swim, so it's iffy)
Fortune (skill checks? Boo-yah! Masterwork everything for everybody!)
Healing (it's like spells without using resources!)
Peacebond (talk to them before killing them, eh?)
Swamp Hag (only in certain communities, but the sudden drop in the death toll from swamps is significant)
Tongues (suddenly foreign mercantilism became much easier)
Water Lung (all sorts of reasons)
That's ten of the hexes (or maybe nine, eight, or even seven if you discount certain of them for reasons noted above) that are more likely to be more consistently useful and powerful.
And any given community isn't likely to have all that many witches. Heck, Irrisen, the land ruled by witches that breeds witches to make witches is mostly made up of... commoners.
I mean, personally, a first level creature that has access to animate dead, baleful polymorph, blight, bestow curse, clairaudience/clairvoayance, charm monster, commune, control weather, dream, forcecage, mind blank, mirage arcana, reincarnate, speak with dead, veil, and vision seems far more game-world changing than the ability to put to sleep lone creatures with only weak saves for their CR isn't that big a deal.
I do have to admit that the GMG NPCs are all... oddly classed. Not poorly classed, mind you, just oddly classed.
Mind you, this is an odd set up we're given in the original post.
Take a high CR encounter, with a low will save (+6 for a CR 9). The give two people the advantage of setting, positioning, and initiative.
A similar argument could be made for two raging barbarians with great axes getting the jump on a 9th level wizard. I think the barbarians could take down the wizard with his low HP and low AC in the same fashion that a barbarian and a witch could take the frost giant.
400 posts on and we've had quite a lot of discussion about the likelihood of this scenario :-)
But to take your other point, this thread is about the game being *changed* by the introduction of Slumber Hex and, if so, how. The two raging barbarians vs wizard situation is as absolutely true now as it's ever been - which is why we know that wizards don't wander around unprotected.
Richard
I would suggest that, based on evidence, building the game world is not in any way changed.
And the lone wandering mysterious old wizard is just as much - if not more so - an iconic part of gaming and literary history than a lone wandering rampaging giant.
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** spoiler omitted **...
This situation is basically bunk ...
Guys, I'm sorry but you really need to read through this thread.
We have gone through the likelyhood or not of the giant and the balor encounters many times now. We've also spoken endlessly about this not being a PC vs monster situation.
And IMVHO Drow Poison at 75gp per dose doesn't compare with free Slumber Hex at low levels.
Richard
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First, this has been bugging me, and others have touched on it, but I've not seen it noted outright...
My little take on demographics (post #209) suggested 1 in 30 population had PC class levels.
I fully accept everything you say about hex choices although I don't necessarily agree that these are better than Slumber. I think it would depend on your relative priorities and likely dangers. If marauders are high on your list, then slumber should be a favourite (IMO).
Finally, the wandering mysterious old wizard wouldn't have a problem with 1st level barbarians. Gandalf was quite a dude, you know :-)
Low level wandering wizards are just part of the food chain.
Richard
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** spoiler omitted **...This situation is basically bunk ...Guys, I'm sorry but you really need to read through this thread.
We have gone through the likelyhood or not of the giant and the balor encounters many times now. We've also spoken endlessly about this not being a PC vs monster situation.
And IMVHO Drow Poison at 75gp per dose doesn't compare with free Slumber Hex at low levels.
Richard
Drow poison compares because it's actually something that can realistically happen. Your example is one step along from "coup de grace is overpowered because if my rogue with 18 Strength and a Pickaxe sneaks up on a sleeping Marilith...".
See, the 75 gp drow poison? That happens. I've actually laughed as a GM when an otyough burst out of a sewer system, and the 2nd level party rolls initiative against it, then the party's resident poisoner shoots the CR 4 beast with a single arrow and it falls on its face because it failed a save. He was able to deliver it from a safe distance and their was a decent % chance it would work and it did.
Your example requires a lot of very unlikely things to occur. It's fabricated and set in the favor of the two 1st level PCs. You've chosen the perfect positions for them on the board, the perfect initiative results, the perfect lone enemy. Even with all these perfects, the pair have a very swingy chance of surviving. If the giant doesn't biff his weakest saving throw (and he still has a good chance to succeed) he murders both of them. Meanwhile, in a real game, this doesn't happen because both would be dead before they managed to close 30 ft. with the giant because the giant would have smooshed them with 1d8+13 rocks, or murdered the fighter before he could close to within 5 ft. of him, or would have murdered the fighter when he closed to the fighter.
Guess what. I can kill a 20th level solar cleric with epic PC wealth too. At 7th level. He just has to fail two saving throws for my phantasmal killer spell.
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+1 to what Taticslion said.
In general good world building requires you to actually make choices that make sense within the world. Even in pre-3E where there were no NPC classes you still had unclassed NPCs to represent the unwashed masses.
I have a society / civilization in my homebrew world that actually has spellcasters instead of commoners. The society is essentially a bunch of adepts. Most of them 2 HD adepts with 9s in their physical scores and 12s in their mental scores. They are born and raised to learn magic. They train in magic like children in our modern times train in elementary and high school. They are just better than most commoners elsewhere.
Still, being an actual wizard or cleric is a cut above the rest. The adepts look up to these individuals with respect and awe, much like a high school graduate might to someone with a doctorate. And the fact this society is so permeated with magic is a great exception, not the rule. Beyond their borders, commoners as far as the eye can see.
But back to the land of spellcasters for a moment. What are the most commonly prepared spells?
0: create water, guidance, light, mending, purify food and drink
1st: comprehend languages, endure elements
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First, this has been bugging me, and others have touched on it, but I've not seen it noted outright...My little take on demographics (post #209) suggested 1 in 30 population had PC class levels.
So this thorp we've been discussing probably *wouldn't* have witches. A hamlet could have up to two PC-classed characters. How likely is it that one of them was chosen by a mysterious otherworldly force to be granted strange eldritch magics? Maybe one of them, almost certainly not both. Did that one witch, if she exists, take the Slumber Hex instead of Cauldron, Healing, Charm, Feral Speech, or Tongues? (And that's if a witch, in-universe, even chooses their Hexes; they may only learn what their patron elects to teach them through the familiar.)
By the time we get to a Village, there's a decent chance of their being a witch, and maybe even multiple witches. But I wouldn't expect lone raiders (at least of size and power any less than a Dragon) to attack settlements of this size, at least not in any way more sustained than grabbing cows from outlying farms--at that point, action economy is turning against the raiders to an increasingly massive degree. If enough creatures are attacking you, even if they can only hit on a natural 20, 5% can happen often enough to be lethal.
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I take what you're saying about the Drow poison - the fact that it costs 75gp and so would not be very economic for a 1st level NPC (note) Witch is what makes me think it doesn't compare.
The rest of your post retreads old ground. This isn't about PCs vs monster. This isn't about what you call a "real game".
Here's one post about the circumstances:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qi6d&page=6?Is-the-Slumber-hex-uniquely-ga me-changing#290
Here's another:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qi6d&page=7?Is-the-Slumber-hex-uniquely-ga me-changing#336
And that's just the stuff I've put up - plenty of other people have had views on this.
Richard
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But back to the land of spellcasters for a moment. What are the most commonly prepared spells?
0: create water, guidance, light, mending, purify food and drink
1st: comprehend languages, endure elements
No mage hand, prestidigitation, ant haul, or unseen servant?
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No mage hand, prestidigitation, ant haul, or unseen servant?But back to the land of spellcasters for a moment. What are the most commonly prepared spells?
0: create water, guidance, light, mending, purify food and drink
1st: comprehend languages, endure elements
Only because those aren't on the adept spell list. That being said, I've been considering removing the adept spell list and giving them access to any spell off the bard, cleric, druid, or sorcerer/wizard spell lists, since that would give more NPC-class options without building entirely new NPC classes. Since they suffer from an extremely stunted spell progression anyway, I don't think it would cause any issues that aren't already present.
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So this thorp we've been discussing probably *wouldn't* have witches. A hamlet could have up to two PC-classed characters. How likely is it that one of them was chosen by a mysterious otherworldly force to be granted strange eldritch magics?
Unless anyone gives me reason to think otherwise, I think one PC class is as likely as any other. They all need you to be *special* in some way.
Natural selection (to a degree) I think will favour witches that take the hexes which most benefit their community.
The point about which hexes that is has already been made - and I accept that Slumber might not be the best choice, though it probably would depend on the likelyhood of a marauder-threat.
By the time we get to a Village, there's a decent chance of their being a witch, and maybe even multiple witches. But I wouldn't expect lone raiders (at least of size and power any less than a Dragon) to attack settlements of this size, at least not in any way more sustained than grabbing cows from outlying farms--at that point, action economy is turning against the raiders to an increasingly massive degree. If enough creatures are attacking you, even if they can only hit on a natural 20, 5% can happen often enough to be lethal.
Maybe so, and this is what this thread was, I hoped, supposed to be all about. What constitutes sensible behaviour for your average giant, dragon, whatever, and has the Slumber Hex changed this. If you think it hasn't - then I'm happy to accept your opinion on this.
Richard
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My little take on demographics (post #209) suggested 1 in 30 population had PC class levels.
That's interesting, sure, but there are twenty-two base PC classes (if you include the alternate classes; 19 if you don't; there are 10 more Ultimate Class play test). Each of which has a variety of options. The only classes that don't require a special patron of some sort (and thus would be practical to presume availability... with training...), are martial, bard, wizard, alchemist, and magus (and possibly some of the new ones).
I fully accept everything you say about hex choices although I don't necessarily agree that these are better than Slumber. I think it would depend on your relative priorities and likely dangers. If marauders are high on your list, then slumber should be a favourite (IMO).
I never said they were better... only that they were more often useful in most scenarios.
Slumber is only useful if solitary marauders were a common problem.
But that's the thing: a class that requires the whim of a mysterious patron (thus has a heightened rarity), and is already presumed to be less common (ARG and arcane and PC class), and with plenty of other reasons to have other classes and choices besides, it becomes highly unlikely for this situation to ever occur in any regularity. And those few situations it does will be rare enough that they don't really alter anything.
Finally, the wandering mysterious old wizard wouldn't have a problem with 1st level barbarians. Gandalf was quite a dude, you know :-)
Low level wandering wizards are just part of the food chain.
Yes, but we were talking about a 9th level wizard. Not really "low-level" in my opinion. Also, Gandal was closer to an outsider with some spellcasting rather than a D&D Wizard. I'm talking about most any other setting. Wizards in lone towers retreated into the wilderness and removed away from civilization to study the arcane mysteries with just themselves and (maybe occasionally) an apprentice or two.
And in more than one AP the "mysterious old wizard" is a seventh to ninth level guy.
So I dunno, man. I'd suggest that it's iconic, but it doesn't necessarily work in all worlds or under all building conditions. :)
EDIT:
Natural selection (to a degree) I think will favour witches that take the hexes which most benefit their community.
That's kind of like saying that Natural Selection favors Oil Riggs because people with access to Oil Riggs have more Power.
True in theory, but in practice a lot has to go right before that actually happens.
The point about which hexes that is has already been made - and I accept that Slumber might not be the best choice, though it probably would depend on the likelyhood of a marauder-threat.
Single-marauder threat! :)
It also depends on the power of the creature.
By the time we get to a Village, there's a decent chance of their being a witch, and maybe even multiple witches. But I wouldn't expect lone raiders (at least of size and power any less than a Dragon) to attack settlements of this size, at least not in any way more sustained than grabbing cows from outlying farms--at that point, action economy is turning against the raiders to an increasingly massive degree. If enough creatures are attacking you, even if they can only hit on a natural 20, 5% can happen often enough to be lethal.Maybe so, and this is what this thread was, I hoped, supposed to be all about. What constitutes sensible behaviour for your average giant, dragon, whatever, and has the Slumber Hex changed this. If you think it hasn't - then I'm happy to accept your opinion on this.
Richard
But the point is, it's nothing to do with the Slumber hex and everything to do with the Action Economy.
Much like the Iconic Wandering Wizard (tm), the Iconic Lone Raider only works if they use clever tactics.
Most villages will capitulate before a powerful creature, even if (presuming they're all equipped with crossbows) they can kill it easily, because having them all equipped with crossbows to fire at the same time isn't likely to occur, and many will probably die before the situation can be resolved. Most people like less violence and death, so...
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Only because those aren't on the adept spell list. That being said, I've been considering removing the adept spell list and giving them access to any spell off the bard, cleric, druid, or sorcerer/wizard spell lists, since that would give more NPC-class options without building entirely new NPC classes. Since they suffer from an extremely stunted spell progression anyway, I don't think it would cause any issues that aren't already present.
Ah, I get you.
But that reminds me of a fun exploit with the samsaran mythic past life racial trait. Since adepts are divine casters, a samsaran divine caster with that trait can plunder the adept spell list for things like sleep, invisibility, web, and baleful polymorph. You can also use it to get heal as a 5th level spell.
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I take what you're saying about the Drow poison - the fact that it costs 75gp and so would not be very economic for a 1st level NPC (note) Witch is what makes me think it doesn't compare.
Fighting giants is not very economic at 1st level. If you're going to gamble and play the lottery, at least play the lottery that doesn't come with a 10,000+ gp tax should you fail.
The rest of your post retreads old ground. This isn't about PCs vs monster. This isn't about what you call a "real game".
Except when you ask "Is the Slumber hex uniquely game changing?", then the answer is NO unless it actually changes the game and the way that it is played. It doesn't, so it's not.
Let's look at your scenario from your linked post.
In the giant vs village scenario, it doesn't take a fighter to administer an effective coup-de-gras. Assuming the witch is only 1st level then she needs to fire her hex when the giant is attacking the villagers. They'll then be able to 5' step and coup-de-gras with pitchforks and the like with a very good chance of killing it. If the witch is 2nd level then the situation is much easier.
Assuming that, again, in this perfect world where the giant is just walking up casually mowing down commoners, and moves into a group of commoners who are armed with pitchforks and stuff, and there's enough of them left to kill him after he murders a few of them with great-cleave. So the giant falls down. The unwashed commoner finds his bravery and steps up to the plate, and makes an improvised-weapon coup de grace with his pitchfork.
He rolls 2d8+0 damage, average 9. The giant must make a DC 19 Fortitude save. He succeeds on a roll of 5+. He then wakes up and everyone gets dead, starting with the fool commoner who didn't run. Instead, the giant wakes up, finds his pitch fork stuck in his neck, gets angry and begins breaking the commoner's legs off while he's screaming in agony as his children look on in horror. For poops and giggles, he then throws the still screaming and legless commoner at the witch as an improvised ranged weapon so she can feel good about herself.
Meanwhile, the likelihood of a lone giant going home when attacking a villiage is already slim. This is why giants don't attack villages by their lonesome. They are devastated by cheap alchemical weapons available in any thorpe. Alchemist fire are 20 gp and likely standard issue for 1st level warriors. Giants have god-awful touch-ACs, and can do it from further away.
Why aren't you complaining that grease makes a joke of these guys, as it makes it nearly impossible to hold onto their weapon? Why aren't you complaining that charm person turns them into your minion?
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Only because those aren't on the adept spell list. That being said, I've been considering removing the adept spell list and giving them access to any spell off the bard, cleric, druid, or sorcerer/wizard spell lists, since that would give more NPC-class options without building entirely new NPC classes. Since they suffer from an extremely stunted spell progression anyway, I don't think it would cause any issues that aren't already present.Ah, I get you.
But that reminds me of a fun exploit with the samsaran mythic past life racial trait. Since adepts are divine casters, a samsaran divine caster with that trait can plunder the adept spell list for things like sleep, invisibility, web, and baleful polymorph. You can also use it to get heal as a 5th level spell.
Yeah, back in 3.5, this was a common tactic among archivists. They were basically divine-wizards. You could learn spells off any divine spell list with the class. The adept was a popular spell list to grab spells from.
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Why aren't you complaining that grease makes a joke of these guys, as it makes it nearly impossible to hold onto their weapon? Why aren't you complaining that charm person turns them into your minion?
Actually, this reminds me of what my psion did in a recent game. A friend of mine is running Reign of Winter and at some point we encountered a bunch of giants (frost giants even, I think). Should have been a very difficult fight because we were far outnumbered, but I just kept spamming ectoplasmic sheen (the equivalent to grease). It devastated them. Giants were loosing their weapons left and right, flopping around like fish on the ground, and getting torn to pieces by our party. A bunch of them turned tail to run, and we basically caught most of them and took them apart too.
Because grease vs horrible Reflex saves. :P
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Slumber hex is just cousin to glitterdust (if you are a low Will save dude without exotic senses), grease (you are a low Reflex save melee or bow dude), magic missile (you are an outnumbered spellcaster), or Stunning Fist (you are a low Fortitude non-melee guy). It's rare that a selectable ability is a solid, scaling, career-length good choice, but that's all it is, and there are plenty of other things that are just as good.
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Why aren't you complaining that grease makes a joke of these guys, as it makes it nearly impossible to hold onto their weapon?Back up weapons, no coup de grace. And the giant can still grapple with impunity.
Yet can happen without god placing all the pieces on the board in perfect alignment. :P
Slumber hex is just cousin to glitterdust (if you are a low Will save dude without exotic senses), grease (you are a low Reflex save melee or bow dude), magic missile (you are an outnumbered spellcaster), or Stunning Fist (you are a low Fortitude non-melee guy). It's rare that a selectable ability is a solid, scaling, career-length good choice, but that's all it is, and there are plenty of other things that are just as good.It is not. A monster still can hit hard while prone (grease spell), or casta spell or use a (su) or fly or...
I'm sorry, I didn't realize frost giants could cast spells or fly. Also, you can't use throwing weapons while prone.
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I take what you're saying about the Drow poison - the fact that it costs 75gp and so would not be very economic for a 1st level NPC (note) Witch is what makes me think it doesn't compare.Fighting giants is not very economic at 1st level. If you're going to gamble and play the lottery, at least play the lottery that doesn't come with a 10,000+ gp tax should you fail.
Hmmmm - well, it still costs more than slumber, but I take your point.
The rest of your post retreads old ground. This isn't about PCs vs monster. This isn't about what you call a "real game".Except when you ask "Is the Slumber hex uniquely game changing?", then the answer is NO unless it actually changes the game and the way that it is played. It doesn't, so it's not.
There I disagree. The whole point of this thread has not, for me, been about how the game plays out, it's been about the fantasy background against which the game is played out. It's been about scenario building.
I'm actually very happy with the conclusion that Slumber Hex doesn't change the world. I, personally, haven't concluded that yet, but the debate continues.
Let's look at your scenario from your linked post...
Well, the whole point, again for me, is about looking at this from the Giant's p.o.v.
Your opinion is that the giant would not be a village marauder but that if he was the slumber hex does not make a change to the likely outcome.
Ok - maybe you're right. It might depend on whether it was a commoner rather than a warrior that got the coup-de-gras in, if it was only him that did it, if villagers didn't carry sickles, and how well the witch was able to plan her slumber-hex-pot-shot. If the witch was 2nd level, it would give a lot more coup-de-gras opportunities, including presumably the local NPC with a fighter level.
A lot of people on this thread have said "obviously this" and "obviously that" but given that frequently this is the opposite of that then in my opinion it isn't obvious at all.
Richard
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Why aren't you complaining that grease makes a joke of these guys, as it makes it nearly impossible to hold onto their weapon? Why aren't you complaining that charm person turns them into your minion?
I'm not complaining about anything, BTW.
However, whenever anyone comes up with alternates to Slumber Hex, Slumber Hex always comes up on top.
So far, anyway.
It comes down to:
1) Cast at 1st level
2) No HD limit
3) Unlimited use, albeit once per creature
4) No SR
5) No concentration (no AoO)
6) Not noticeable (no verbal or somantic components)
7) Very small part of the class
Richard
P.S. Charm Person = your minion? It makes them your friend, but having a Hill Giant friend in my opinion means he would tell you to stop complaining about killing the villagers and come back home with him for a drink with "roast villager" afterwards.
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I think we've established that it's pretty unlikely a lone giant would purposefully attack someone in a gingerbread house in the middle of a wheat field in harvest season.
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No mage hand, prestidigitation, ant haul, or unseen servant?But back to the land of spellcasters for a moment. What are the most commonly prepared spells?
0: create water, guidance, light, mending, purify food and drink
1st: comprehend languages, endure elementsOnly because those aren't on the adept spell list. That being said, I've been considering removing the adept spell list and giving them access to any spell off the bard, cleric, druid, or sorcerer/wizard spell lists, since that would give more NPC-class options without building entirely new NPC classes. Since they suffer from an extremely stunted spell progression anyway, I don't think it would cause any issues that aren't already present.
I would have them chose one of the mentioned lists, not all the spells on all the lists.
It would be a bit strange to think that someone that has learned purify food and drink in high school will "forget" it because he has taken advanced studies as a wizard. This way high school can be similar to preparation school for the advanced studies.
No mage hand, prestidigitation, ant haul, or unseen servant?But back to the land of spellcasters for a moment. What are the most commonly prepared spells?
0: create water, guidance, light, mending, purify food and drink
1st: comprehend languages, endure elementsOnly because those aren't on the adept spell list. That being said, I've been considering removing the adept spell list and giving them access to any spell off the bard, cleric, druid, or sorcerer/wizard spell lists, since that would give more NPC-class options without building entirely new NPC classes. Since they suffer from an extremely stunted spell progression anyway, I don't think it would cause any issues that aren't already present.
I would have them chose one of the mentioned lists, not all the spells on all the lists.
It would be a bit strange to think that someone that has learned purify food and drink in high school will "forget" it because he has taken advanced studies as a wizard. This way high school can be similar to preparation school for the advanced studies.
I dunno. I forgot a couple of high school math principles (how it was taught) because it's so different than it was in college. I had to re-learn how High School was teaching it to tutor kids in the processes the way they were expected to think.
That said, I see what you mean. It could cause a certain dissonance for a spellcaster to lose what they once had.
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I fully accept everything you say about hex choices although I don't necessarily agree that these are better than Slumber. I think it would depend on your relative priorities and likely dangers. If marauders are high on your list, then slumber should be a favourite (IMO).I never said they were better... only that they were more often useful in most scenarios.
Slumber is only useful if solitary marauders were a common problem.
And the rabid dog, the runaway bull, the violent drunk that you want to stop without harming him (dropping down and waking 6 seconds later on the floor would go a great way in calming him down), to help the butcher kill the cow and so on.
I see more uses for that in a village than for tongues or some of the other hexes you cited earlier.
Single-marauder threat! :)
I think we have established that intelligent single marauding threats are rare. We still have the non intelligent animals.
The bear that prey on the sheep? Will ST +2, a witch in the bunting party will be very welcome (at least as much as a druid).|
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SLEEP
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area one or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 HD of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell's point of origin are affected first. HD that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted. Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action). Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures.
My mistake. Still it takes a standard action to cast. As well if you hot a targert under the effect of the hex they wake up. Hardly gam breaking imo.
The bear that prey on the sheep? Will ST +2, a witch in the bunting party will be very welcome (at least as much as a druid).
A sleep spell has better range and duration, and is therefore better in almost every way that matters.
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My mistake. Still it takes a standard action to cast. As well if you hot a targert under the effect of the hex they wake up. Hardly gam breaking imo.
SLEEP
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area one or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 HD of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell's point of origin are affected first. HD that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted. Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action). Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures.
Casting Time 1 round
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
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A sleep spell has better range and duration, and is therefore better in almost every way that matters.
The bear that prey on the sheep? Will ST +2, a witch in the bunting party will be very welcome (at least as much as a druid).
Bear: hp 42 (5d8+20)
Sleep: maximum number of HD affected 4
Sleep is better if you are fighting a pack of wolves, but it will still affect only 2 of them. If you have some guy protecting the witch and a good number of wolves slumber win out. Especially if they operate as they do in real life, with a lot of circling and trying to flanking the prey, not if they do a mass attack as usually they do in the game.
And a witch can memorize sleep, so you get the best of two worlds.
I fully accept everything you say about hex choices although I don't necessarily agree that these are better than Slumber. I think it would depend on your relative priorities and likely dangers. If marauders are high on your list, then slumber should be a favourite (IMO).I never said they were better... only that they were more often useful in most scenarios.
Slumber is only useful if solitary marauders were a common problem.
And the rabid dog, the runaway bull, the violent drunk that you want to stop without harming him (dropping down and waking 6 seconds later on the floor would go a great way in calming him down), to help the butcher kill the cow and so on.
I see more uses for that in a village than for tongues or some of the other hexes you cited earlier.
That's an interesting take, but Charm (which I forgot to mention there because I'd mentioned it before - my mistake) functions much better for either the runaway bull or the violent drunk than sleep, to me, because then you can persuade it. With sleep, you're just left with a downed, then suddenly-awake violent drunk or runaway bull.
The cow is nice, but hardly as useful as ready access to potions, healing, elimination of local diseases, free increases to skill checks, the ability to speak with your livestock and other animals (to more properly respond to issues that come up with them), and so on.
The rabid dog or bear would be quite useful, I admit.
So... we're down to non-sentient creatures, of which, only constitute a consistent threat to those that leave the local tamed community or are under the effects of a debilitating (and ultimately deadly) disease. While that would include wood-cutters, those guys are usually hardly by themselves, and non-sentient animals usually will go away after a bit of irritation instead of forcing the issue over a piddling amount of food (as they can find it more easily and less painfully elsewhere).
Commoners with crossbows and slings will still be a cheaper and easier method of driving most critters compared to acquiring a highly specialized witch who has a great deal of other options to choose from, if, indeed, non-player witches can actually freely choose their own options instead of being taught by their mysterious patron, which comes down to the matter of GM fiat.
Single-marauder threat! :)I think we have established that intelligent single marauding threats are rare. We still have the non intelligent animals.
The bear that prey on the sheep? Will ST +2, a witch in the bunting party will be very welcome (at least as much as a druid).
Da bears (especially here, which notes their general herbivorous diet plus )
Just above that section, it notes:
While many people think bears are nocturnal, they are, in fact, generally diurnal, active for the most part during the day. The belief they are nocturnal apparently comes from the habits of bears that live near humans, which engage in some nocturnal activities, such as raiding trash cans or crops while avoiding humans.
Or, a little later,
Some species, such as the polar bear, American black bear, sloth bear, and brown bear, are dangerous to humans, especially in areas where they have become used to people. All bears are physically powerful and are likely capable of fatally attacking a person, but they, for the most part, are shy, are easily frightened and will avoid humans. Injuries caused by bears are rare, but are often widely reported.[34] The danger that bears pose is often vastly exaggerated, in part by the human imagination. However, when a mother feels her cubs are threatened, she will behave ferociously. It is recommended to give all bears a wide berth because they are behaviorally unpredictable.
So while bears can be dangerous (where they've become used to people) for the most part they're shy and easily frightened off.
That said, I will note it says,
Where bears raid crops or attack livestock, they may come into conflict with humans.[35][36] These problems may be the work of only a few bears, but they create a climate of conflict, as farmers and ranchers may perceive all losses as due to bears and advocate the preventive removal of all bears.[36] Mitigation methods may be used to reduce bear damage to crops, and reduce local antipathy towards bears.
So, in the end, unless debilitatingly sick somehow (and a witch can negate diseases) or extremely used to human interaction, bears tend to be shy and easily frightened off. In the case of those bears that are problems, there are mitigating techniques that can be used, and they can be charmed and moved on.
I dunno, sleep still doesn't sound necessary or even the most optimal.
Again, it's useful, but what will see more play?
A witch's spell list includes cause fear, ill-omen, mud ball, ray of enfeeblement, or web bolt, all of which would be extremely useful in just as many if not more situations.
While the herd animal list doesn't have "cow", it does have aurochs and notes they are similar to domesticated cattle. The fact that they're 3HD means the sleep spell will work on them.
Again, then, the more easily tailored daily spells handle the situations that are less common, while the more commonly used hexes handle everything else. I'm not seeing Slumber as optimal, here.
Guess what. I can kill a 20th level solar cleric with epic PC wealth too. At 7th level. He just has to fail two saving throws for my phantasmal killer spell.
Sorry Ashiel, but you are forgetting one reason why this almost definitely won't work and one reason why it couldn't possibly work. Both of which don't apply to slumber.
Once again, people are entirely missing the point by focusing on what a pair of first level characters can do to a CR 9 creature.
Slumber hex can allow witches to take on a wide variety of encounters above what should even be possible, with a better chance of success then any other single ability or spell. It takes no resources, no special build, and works in most circumstances. If the hex is not useful in the encounter, the witch is still one of the most powerful classes in the game, with a wide variety of other powerful options. If you want to powergame the hell out of it, it isn't hard to do.
Other options like sleep, color spray (even from a heavens oracle), glitter dust, grease, and even hold person (probably the closest in power to slumber hex), are all substantially more limited and restricted. They may be better then slumber hex in one way or another, but Slumber hex is far better overall.
Given the substantial number of posts I have seen on these boards (over 12 posts and probably over 20) of people saying slumber hex had a bad affect on their games, I'm baffled people are so resistant to change. I would just remind everyone that Pathfinder is generally considered BETTER then 3.5 because they added things like a save every round to glitterdust, and toned down other save or suck/die options. Why go back to the bad ole days?
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What I'm saying is that prior to Slumber Hex the chance of success of the giant was acceptably low, now it isn't.
Actually they are still acceptably low by the way I would run a giant because my giants are not dumb. Basically, like I said before you can't argue slumber changes anything "across the board/for mostly everyone" like you say it does, because we run our games and tell our stories differently. In your world it is a problem because you think it is logical for lone giants to attacks hundreds of people, and others of us do not. There are also other disagreements we have on logic. So at the end of the day it boils down to perception. My giants would kill your witch, and your giants would die or be run off in my game world.
Well, the raid on Sandpoint, IIRC, was a pretty chaotic affair. Stone Giants weren't "buddying up" at all, and they certainly weren't looking out for stray witches.
They are not looking for stray witches because the slumber hex is not good enough on its own to be world changing. Not only do you need a witch, you need witches with the slumber hex. Then you need a low level witch that won't run away. Giants were not pairing up, on purpose but they were in groups.
They ransacked a mansion together
I am interested in hearing how you feel "your" world hangs together, and other people's too. All I'm trying to do is to get a view about fantasy world logicality.
Not every PC class is an adventurer so they are less likely to have combat spells abilities, unless they are fighters and similar classes. Some witch serving the community might have some combat abilities but they won't be optimized for it unless the village/town is an area of constant raids. A 1st level witch is very unlikely to have a slumber hex.
So first you have to have a witch as opposed to a cleric, oracle, or druid, which considering the rarity of PC's classes is already low odds. Then you have can go to my above post to see the liklihood of a witch even trying to cast slumber.Then when the attack takes place even if a witch can put a giant to sleep, there are other giants to deal with. As soon as the witch is deemed a threat then they will focus fire and kill her. Killing one giant won't likely stop a raid, so the chance of doing a coup de grace mid combat is unlikely. Most people wont take a chance at death unless it will be of great significance.
It seems witches with the slumber hex are more prelevant in your world, and the chance of a low level witch dropping a giant bothers you. I dont think that the threat is consistent enough to be world changing for several reasons, and that would be even if every witch had slumber. For the sake of argument if every witch had slumber it would just push giants to attack as a group, which I think they would do anyway. I don't think one giant is taking on a militia, so the single giant problem never happens in my gameworld anyway, unless they stumble upon lone travelers on the road. Even then it would have to a low number of people, or the giant has backup.
For the purpose of this post adventurer=anyone with combat skills. I know that does not make them an "adventurer" but it is just a way to seperate combat classes from the normal people..
As for the rest of your post if outlying farms were left virtually undefended that may change dynamics so that a single giant would attack, but if single giants are attacking that means slumber is not really influencing that world.
If the farms were in the village, and not far( too far to get decent help) away, which means a considerable defense could be put up against one giant, the I don't see one giant, not even a hill giant raiding on his own. Even animals understand size and numbers.
In short you would need a giant dumb enough to raid on his own, when it is easier to hunt. I am sure the deer(insert other food as needed) is not as dangerous as a humanoid settlement.
PS: With all of this aside I would like a HD cap for thematic purposes, but it is not really world changing to me.
So I would say that we agree that the solitary raider essentially don't exist, right?
yes