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I don't mind not having a faction mission every game.
Its perfectly understandable (and obvious from the way some of them were shoehorned in) that not every adventure will have the opportunity to do something andorany or chelaxian.
But the individual letters for when you DO have a faction mission were a nice way of narrowing down what the goal was, hooking up with your faction brothers for a few minutes as you huddled over the note, tried to work out what you might be doing, and started to plot it.
If you don't like handing out the note (its a pain for me now that i'm running off a kindle) pull the players aside and do it like an extra mission briefing and have them take notes.
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Each player should be responsible for knowing what it is their faction is trying to do this season. It is in the guide, on the forums, and emailed to the account used for your Paizo account.
The information in the guide itself is woefully incomplete. There's no way to go from
Cheliax: Secure important artifacts and sources of
power to establish order in the Inner Sea region and
strengthen the faction’s power base.
To
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BNW, the information in the guide is not what you are expected to use to guide your faction actions. You are supposed to be reading your faction heads' letters which are posted in the Faction sections and linked from a sticky post in the main forum. An email was sent to every player alerting them to come read the letters at the beginning of the season. If you read the Cheliax letter, what you need to do in Wardstone is actually mentioned.
Yes, but why would you check the letter if you THINK you have what you're supposed to do in the guide? Especially casual players that aren't on the boards that much/if at all.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Tony, there are lots of people who do not follow the forums. And I think it's an unreasonable expectation that a player has to come to the forums and hunt through the threads. (Yes, it's stickied, but it's not visible from the Pathfinder Society-level posts, and it's not in the right subforum. Go looking under Factions, the natural place for faction letters, and see how hard they are to find.)
Likewise, the letters went out at the beginning of the season. And I'm not sure: at least they *used* to be sent only to those players who had characters registered for the particular faction. Was it the case this past year that all eight faction letters went out to all players with at least one registered PFS character? Since thee was an awful lot of faction-switching at that point, it would be nice.
In any case, anybody who joined the campaign since August hasn't gotten a letter.
I agree with some posters up-thread. Those letters should be part of the relevant scenarios, the same way all the faction missions used to be. So, when a new 1st-level Qadiran PC shows up at a mission briefing, the player doesn't have to log in to Paizo.com, find the messageboards, find the Pathfinder Society section, and search through the forums to see what the faction leader suggests. The GM just hands it to the player. "Oh, by the way, there's this note from the Trade Prince."
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The faction "boons" are quite tiny in the scope of the full character and often forgettable minutes after reading the boon. To say characters are effing things up over entitlement to these boons is quite silly. I actively try to complete the faction missions and often think "that is cool" when I read the boons, but I have never used a one shot boon on any character from any season, and if I said I had seen other players use them a handful of times I would be exaggerating. I think the little boons they give are just a mechanical excuse to allow people to roleplay a bit more freely. I have seen roleplay get shut down and scoffed at by GMs if they feel it outside the scope of the mechanics.
I have very mixed feelings about the faction mission changes. Having one each game did make you feel more like part of a meaningful faction. For the last several characters I have made (I normally play 2-4 different characters by the time I play as a level 2 and I help my wife make characters) I just make them all the faction that I think has the best vanities. I don't think this is really within the spirit of the faction system, but it means so little to me otherwise I see little incentive not to.
However, I am very glad to get rid of the find the Shiny Apple missions, especially when it boiled down to a DC 20 profession stoneworking check.
I would almost like to see a blend of the faction missions in future seasons. I know that it isn't reasonable to get a good, meaningful faction mission every game for every faction, but it might be possible if different factions had the same meaningful goal. One game Szarni, Qadiran, and Osirian are all trying to accomplish goal X, but in the next one Qadirans have similar interests to the Chelaxians and Grand Lodge. There could be different motivations for accomplishing those goals, but it would make Factions feel more regularly relevant again.
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The old faction missions didn't really do much for me. My character was a Shadow Lodge agent running through mostly older scenarios so I was only getting Chelaxian missions. Rivalries End was the only time I actually got a Shadow Lodge mission and it didn't end well.
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I agree with some faction missions being good in S1-3, but mostly they weren't. They were tacked on and mostly garbage. Yes Season 4 went to great lengths to make sure the faction missions were much more integrated and less spoilerific. People in regions definitely make a difference on how they are received.
I don't recall too many being good - and I recall plenty of table variation on how much help could be had - anywhere from not even your own faction members knew who other faction members were and thus no coordination at all - to other faction players helping with factions not their own. So some tables got max prestige every game and others did not.
I can recall plenty of times not having the right skill - or doing all the finding but rolling badly on a roll.
I am glad they are gone (and as a GM doubly so- though I know some GMs hand them out anyway) - I've not had so much luck on the boons in year 5 but that is as much as I don't always have characters I want to play in the level range - though I am annoyed that sometimes it just involves NPCs talking to each other and my character listening.
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You're essentially suggesting that people who actually want to embrace their factions are doing it wrong if they refuse to play a scenario on their first available PC and ignore the faction aspect.
If people want to pick and choose which character to play in a scenario based on faction, I think that's perfectly reasonable. If people are choosing to sit around for 4 hours and not play, rather than play a scenario with a character that's not in one of the relevant factions, then I think that's strange behaviour.
Sitri attempts to argue that the boons are worthless and seeking them is also badwrongfun.
I don't see the second part of that sentence anyone where in his post. However, I do agree that the importance of these faction boons has been blown out of proportion. Maybe people's expectations have been raised too far by the impressive boons available from the two faction end scenarios in season 4? The ones I've seen in season 5 are nowhere near as powerful; certainly nothing to obsess over.
My understanding was that part of the point of the faction mission changes was to de-emphasise factions in favour of Pathfinders being members of the Pathfinder Society first and foremost. Paradoxically, some people are now more focused on faction than ever due to these minor boons.
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In terms of my own experience, I passed up the opportunity to play 'The Wardstone Patrol' with my Silver Crusade cleric, as from my vague understanding of what the scenario was about, it seemed far more suited to my Andoran ranger (with evil outsiders as a favoured enemy), even though he'd miss out on a faction boon. And having actually seen the boon I missed out on, I don't regret the decision.
I haven't had much chance to GM season 5 scenarios yet (being more focused on GMing an AP), but when I did, I printed out the letters for all factions and handed them out to all players at the table, much like a normal faction mission. I made it clear that opportunities may arise for some (but not all) people to advance their faction's goal in the session. It really seemed to help, as several players weren't aware of the new system (this was very early in the season) or what their faction goals were.
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I don't know, my only character is in the Silver Crusade and I find the missions fairly straightforward - do the right thing and assist the Mendevian crusade. Do you save peasants? Yes. Do you attack demons? Yes. Do you try to extract captured crusaders? Yes. Does doing these things net you the faction mission? So far, yes. It isn't difficult.
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[Sitri attempts to argue that the boons are worthless and seeking them is also badwrongfun. Have either of you considered that it isn't about the benefit but the accomplishment? Doing one's faction mission is playing one's faction. .
I said quite the opposite. The faction boons themselves seem sort of neat in theory and give an excellent excuse to role play, but I don't see much real mechanical utility from them.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Having GMmed a number of Season 5 scenarios, I, too, have concerns about the longevity of these missions. The Wardstone Patrol's Cheliax mission is already vague. Two years from now, in Season 6, when that letter is no more and we've all moved on from this metaplot, will anyone think to do that mission? Would an enterprising young Pathfinder have reasonable means of accessing the letter required to understand that mission?
To those who say yes, I'd like to ask you to please produce a link to the faction letters from Season 2.
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I personally enjoy the way factions missions were set up in season 5. So far I have seen one that is simply weird (Wardstone Patrol I believe has been said multiple times already I believe). The Faction missions now, for the most part, are much more engaging, and also have the "succeed 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4 to receive this success".
I found, for the most part, season 0-4 missions were nothing more than, hey skill check that maguffin. Did you succeed? Too bad, so sad. Moving on.
I only remember a couple of missions I have read or done in the earlier seasons that were actually interesting. Every mission now in season five (bar wardstones chelexian mission) has been engaging and required the players to get into the story. This is called engagement and I am glad they added it. Season 5 feels more like an actual campaign now and less a "break out the snacks and dice, lets go dungeon delve". There is a story that has been cohesive.
As for Factions themselves? Yes, they are becoming somewhat useless. They should not be prominent though. PFS is an international body devoted to Research, Exploration, and Archaeology. They are more militaristic than a normal international research institute, but that is because of where this organization resides. Factions can have a major bearing on the mentality, nature, and overall goals of a character, and if a character finds an important discovery pertaining to the history or founding of their faction, that faction will of course commemorate and congratulate them. Much like how the British crown will knight individuals like Sir Patrick Stuart for his acting because he has brought acclaim to the British people, enriching their culture in some way.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Hey there, Zach. I appreciate the perspective.
I personally enjoy the way factions missions were set up in season 5. So far I have seen one that is simply weird
I'm pretty far behind on my Season 5 reading, but the Taldor mission for "Stolen Heir" is wonky as well.
As for Factions themselves? Yes, they are becoming somewhat useless. They should not be prominent though.
Maybe.
Choosing your faction is as important as choosing your character’s class or race—it defines your character in the campaign, and ties her to the destiny of one particular cause.
Pathfinder Society is a big-tent organization. People from all over Golarion join for all sorts of reasons, and it is pretty clear that "faction zealot" is a perfectly valid sort of character. I'm sure you didn't mean to suggest that there's only one valid attitude to take regarding factions.
My second PFS character is such a zealot, in the cause of Osirion. (He's got the Osirionologist feat, and he's taken levels in Pathfinder Delver to complement his thirst for exploring tombs.) He started the season at 9th level, and so far hasn't gotten to do anything for the Sapphire Sage. (Happily, there are earlier-season adventures still for him to play.) I'm sure you aren't suggesting that he's less a legitimate Pathfinder than his Grand Lodge brethren.
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TOZ: I'm talking about players who play a Season 5 scenario in, say, 2015. It'll be hard for them to keep all of the letters straight.
Zach: It's true that there were a lot of boring faction missions. There were a lot of really great ones, though, and I think a lot of people forget that.
A few of my favorites:
These are just a few off the top of my head. While yes, some writers took the boring approach and just gave us fetch quests, the same can be said about scenarios themselves - there's a vast difference in quality from scenario to scenario.
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Funny, but I don't recall reading faction letters or forum access as core assumption....
Look, they NEED to give a bigger clue in faction missions just what exactly the factions desire of you. This idea of players just knowing what the factions want from them feels like lazy garbage. Reading some vague fluff in the core assumption doesn't work, and as far as finding faction letters on the forums I would wager there are plenty of players who don't know where to go to find them, may not have internet access or some other reason won't read them.
I believe this reflects poorly on the writing and running of pathfinder society.
Oh, and blind mission objectives are lame.
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Doublevison- my experience is if a group feels a certain way about things a new person entering that group will feel the same way as the group no matter what it is. As is evident by your post since you play in her area. I am not saying your viewpoints are invalid, but Katie and I played under those old systems and I would take this any day of the week over how it was run in s0-3. It is nothing against you personally, but that is the way things are typically.
That has been my experience also. But that just reinforces what I'm saying because now you have acknowledged it isn't just me, it is a group of people that have the same opinion. And all of those people have experience with the older missions and the new ones. Not all of the old ones were outstanding, but at least I knew my faction existed and was doing 'stuff'.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It's really nonsensical for an organization to have agents/operatives who don't know or have to guess at what they need to be doing. It's one thing if there are no actual mission i.e. uphold our values as you go about your business, but if there is a specific expectation of an operative in a given scenario, I don't understand the mentality that the character is having to guess at what that is. I am certain that many of us would really appreciate an explanation as to why PFS believes that this makes factions/faction missions fun.
So, you were under the impression that the current "faction missions" are objectives assigned by the Society? Because they're not.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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TOZ: I'm talking about players who play a Season 5 scenario in, say, 2015. It'll be hard for them to keep all of the letters straight.It won't if they don't have a faction or even know what a faction was.
In which case, I feel that we'd lose a lot of connection to the game world. Sometimes, factions are the only way that I know where a particular character is from or what drives them. It is the only mandatory roleplaying choice made in character creation in PFS, and taking that away will make most of the least flavorful characters complete dead weight when it comes to anything other than hitting things.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I'm not using rhetoric, I'm actually asking: what gave you the idea anyone in any given faction is assigning objectives? It was my understanding that the current model means that players who go the extra mile to understand what their faction is all about might occasionally see a circumstance during a Society mission where there's an opportunity to further their faction's goals on their own initiative. A character with that much awareness, skill, ambition, etc will accomplish things that their faction will care about.
I've seen nothing (though I certainly could have missed something) that even implies that the faction head (or whoever else) is actually setting goals for PCs to accomplish. So where did you get that idea? What did I miss?
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How about you don't try and dictate how other players roleplay their characters. Just because you think every PC's primary loyalty should be to PFS doesn't mean that is true for everyone. It's not BadWrongFun that my sorceror is just using the society as a means to the end of advancing his social standing in Cheliax.
In season 5 our primary motivations are to help PFS, which I think is what should be happening, we joined PFS, not the cheliax faction, and occasionally we get the opportunity to help our faction out. Factions should help with background of characters and motivations but they should not dominate everything like they did before.
A lot of my characters are not actually even Pathfinders. They are outside contractors, or maybe field commissioned because they understand that the Society needs them more than they really need the Society. It's much more of a mutually beneficial arrangement, (for the sake of play) than any loyalty to the organization just 'cause. An as I tend to play a lot of divine classes, it's basically a requirement that some trivial organization like the PFS is obviously not my first priority. Not last, but it's pretty far behind obligations to deity and faith. Depending on character, Faction may or may not be more important to them realistically than being a Pathfinder, too. In general, being a Pathfinder agent is simply a stepping stone to something "better", (for example being a champion of democracy and anti-slavery <Andoran> or savior of your ancient homeland <Taldor/Osirion>). Nothing wrong with simply wanting to be a Pathfinder Agent, or not caring about other politics and philosophies. It's just not everyone's ideal standard, either.
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Your question doesn't make sense to me. Rather than attempt some rhetorical end-around, why don't you just state what you believe to be true?
I believe Jiggy is saying that the Secondary Success Conditions (the ones that grant a 2nd Prestige Point) and the Faction Boons are not assignments from the Society or Faction. They are rewards to the PCs for going above and beyond in their service of one or the other.
It's the difference between "if you do X, you'll get extra credit on your project" and "wow, you did an outstanding job, I'm giving you extra credit." The PCs have surprised their superiors with their work and are being recognized accordingly.
In a meta sense, it is the Campaign Staff saying, "here's your mission, and here are your standard awards (1XP, 1PP, and #GP), but if you do an exemplary job as a Pathfinder, you may get additional awards."
"Exemplary job" is to be assumed from the PFS tenets, Explore, Report, Cooperate. And indeed, you'll find that nearly every Secondary Success Condition (at least the ones I've encountered) come from exploring or finding hidden area or objects, gathering evidence or taking notes, or cooperating with NPCs rather than killing them on sight.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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***their faction's goals***
I've seen nothing (though I certainly could have missed something) that even implies that the faction head (or whoever else) is actually setting goals for PCs to accomplish. So where did you get that idea? What did I miss?
Perhaps you should start with the definition of what it means to have a faction in the first place and what the natural consequence of that OOC decision is IC
fac·tion1
ˈfakSHən/Submit
noun
1.
a small, organized, dissenting group within a larger one, esp. in politics.
"the left-wing faction of the party".Emphasis mine.
If you think my post contradicts what it means to have a faction, you were reading what you expected me to say, not what I actually said.
Those who find their own ways to advance their faction's goals, and take the initiative to do so on their own, will always be more recognized than those who only act when given an assigned objective.
For a real life example, one might say you and I are both members of the PFS faction. But neither of us is getting a Campaign Service Award unless we find an opportunity to do something great and do it; there will never be an assigned objective to get one.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Jiggy,
What about the letters the Faction Heads sent out, outlining their goals? The Sapphire Sage sends me a letter, saying "Find out about the other jeweled sages" and I have the opportunity to deliver news about the Emerald Sage. That's completing a mission that Amenopheus gave me. (The same as in Season 4. His letter that season asked me to find curatives for the Pharaoh, and I would do what I could to accomplish that task.)
Incidentally, I think Season 4 got things pretty close to my ideal: an over-all seasonal arc, and specific assignments that showed up when appropriate. Long-term players could see the arc take shape and develop, while part-time players unfamiliar with the seasonal objectives could still participate, although they missed out on the bigger picture.
Whether the acknowleged payment is a prestige point or a boon isn't relevant; either is fine.
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Those who find their own ways to advance their faction's goals, and take the initiative to do so on their own, will always be more recognized than those who only act when given an assigned objective.
For a real life example, one might say you and I are both members of the PFS faction. But neither of us is getting a Campaign Service Award unless we find an opportunity to do something great and do it; there will never be an assigned objective to get one.
I think you are confusing "Faction Missions" with "Secondary Success Conditions".
:)
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Jiggy,
What about the letters the Faction Heads sent out, outlining their goals? The Sapphire Sage sends me a letter, saying "Find out about the other jeweled sages" and I have the opportunity to deliver news about the Emerald Sage. That's completing a mission that Amenopheus gave me. (The same as in Season 4. His letter that season asked me to find curatives for the Pharaoh, and I would do what I could to accomplish that task.)
Sort of like how the Guide to Organized Play says you can get a CSA by doing awesome things for the campaign?
Sure, there's an overall objective. But given the labels of "secret" being thrown around, I don't think that's what people are talking about.
Unless I missed something pretty major (entirely possible), the current faction system is much like Campaign Service Awards: there's an initial document telling you the general idea of what you want to accomplish for the organization in question, but it's up to the individual to identify and seize opportunities to do things that qualify.
Looking at faction-specific boons and complaining about "secret missions" and whatnot is like someone without a CSA complaining that Mike Brock didn't email them a to-do list and then denied them their reward just because they didn't just happen to guess the right thing to do.
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Jiggy,
What about the letters the Faction Heads sent out, outlining their goals? The Sapphire Sage sends me a letter, saying "Find out about the other jeweled sages" and I have the opportunity to deliver news about the Emerald Sage. That's completing a mission that Amenopheus gave me. (The same as in Season 4. His letter that season asked me to find curatives for the Pharaoh, and I would do what I could to accomplish that task.)
Incidentally, I think Season 4 got things pretty close to my ideal: an over-all seasonal arc, and specific assignments that showed up when appropriate. Long-term players could see the arc take shape and develop, while part-time players unfamiliar with the seasonal objectives could still participate, although they missed out on the bigger picture.
Whether the acknowleged payment is a prestige point or a boon isn't relevant; either is fine.
Directed to Jiggy, but I'll stick my nose in anyway...
Each of the Factions sent out a letter outlining their goals for the year. And the Society has its overarching goal, both as an organization and for the specific season (explore/report/cooperate, secure access to the sky citadel).
PCs are expected to use those guidelines to figure out how to best succeed in the eyes of their Society and Faction leaders. I'm not familiar with the oft-cited Cheliax mission in Wardstone, so I'll allow that perhaps some of the faction letters were misleading or the missions oblique.
I think the overall problem is that since Season 4, the Campaign Staff have been trying to undo a mindset that had firmly settled in over Seasons 0 - 3: the expectation that they should always get 2PP. The 2nd Prestige Point and Chronicle Sheet Boons are not to be expected, they are to be earned, and, as of Season 5, the criteria for earning them will not be given up front.
Players are frustrated when they see they've earned 1 of 2 Prestige Points. It is meant to be that players will have the opportunity to earn 2 of 1 Prestige Points. A subtle, but important distinction.
I don't know that changing the expectations of the player base at large will ever be possible. Personally, I like the tension at the end of the session when we find out if we did a good enough job. I recognize that others hate it.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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On the contrary, your post does contradict itself. You acknowledge that a PC can further the "faction goals." But then suggests no one is setting goals for the PC's to accomplish.
If you think my post contradicts what it means to have a faction, you were reading what you expected me to say, not what I actually said.
If you can read "factions have overall goals" and "factions aren't assigning you individual tasks" and honestly think there's a contradiction, you're not reading for comprehension. You're too deeply entrenched in what you're expecting, and filtering everything you read.
Let me try again, because I know you can do better:
Factions have broad, general goals.
Factions do not assign individual tasks like they used to.
My understanding of the current faction model is that if you keep in mind what your faction is all about, then sometimes you'll see an opportunity to do something your faction would like. If you're aware enough to spot such an opportunity, motivated enough to seize it, and skilled enough to succeed with it; then your faction will be impressed with your contributions and you'll achieve some sort of boon.
The faction had a goal all along, but no one necessarily knew that Opportunity X was going to arise, and they certainly didn't get you assigned to that Pathfinder team specifically so that you could perform the associated task. Rather, your PC came to them after the fact and said "Hey, I encountered X, so I thought it'd be helpful if I did Y. For Faction!" and they said "Wow, great work! That's the kind of go-getter attitude that gets things done! You'll go far with us!"
What I originally asked you was what led to your apparent belief that, rather than what I just described, factions were arranging for you to be present for an opportunity that they were already aware of but just didn't tell you about.
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Unless I missed something pretty major (entirely possible), the current faction system is much like Campaign Service Awards: there's an initial document telling you the general idea of what you want to accomplish for the organization in question, but it's up to the individual to identify and seize opportunities to do things that qualify.
In at least one case there is no, nadda, zero, ZILCH correlation between what completes the faction mission and what the guide or the factions flavor would suggest. (the letter works though) It would be like getting a campaign service award for sending an Egg of silly putty to Adam Daigle.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Unless I missed something pretty major (entirely possible), the current faction system is much like Campaign Service Awards: there's an initial document telling you the general idea of what you want to accomplish for the organization in question, but it's up to the individual to identify and seize opportunities to do things that qualify.In at least one case there is no, nadda, zero, ZILCH correlation between what completes the faction mission and what the guide or the factions flavor would suggest. (the letter works though)
That hardly seems enough to evaluate the entire model on, though. Sounds more like a fluke/stinker to me.
It would be like getting a campaign service award for sending an Egg of silly putty to Adam Daigle.
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Unless I missed something pretty major (entirely possible), the current faction system is much like Campaign Service Awards: there's an initial document telling you the general idea of what you want to accomplish for the organization in question, but it's up to the individual to identify and seize opportunities to do things that qualify.In at least one case there is no, nadda, zero, ZILCH correlation between what completes the faction mission and what the guide or the factions flavor would suggest. (the letter works though) It would be like getting a campaign service award for sending an Egg of silly putty to Adam Daigle.
But is that an indictment of the current system or that one specific mission? If that's the only problem with the Season 5 system, they're doing pretty well. And it can be solved by posting the faction letters in future version of the Guide to OP.
/ninjiggied
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Jiggy,
I would be more inclined to agree with your comparison, if it weren't for two things. First, we as players are cued into exactly where we should send our characters, to further those faction goals, and second, with some exceptions, once we are there, the methods for advancing those goals is plain.
Also, the Campaign Service Award is intended for long service and is notably rarified; neither of those dscriptions match the performance for faction recognition in Season 5. Perhaps a fairer comparison would be a player who is given a token d6 by a venture officer.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Jiggy,
I would be more inclined to agree with your comparison, if it weren't for two things. First, we as players are cued into exactly where we should send our characters, to further those faction goals,
Which is an out-of-character thing. The fact that we (the players/GMs) are told which PCs will have a good opportunity to advance their factions' goals does not imply that—in character—those opportunities were put in place by the factions and assigned to the appropriate PCs. In-character, those opportunities are happenstance that individuals can be rewarded for taking advantage of if they have the wherewithal to do so.
and second, with some exceptions, once we are there, the methods for advancing those goals is plain.
I'm not sure what point you're making here, sorry.
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Current faction goals are much like current corporate American mission statements. Find an exemplary way to bring honor, gold, or prestige to your faction while also adhering to or furthering the mission statement and you get a fancy car and a posh year end bonus. Just chug along as rank and file, and you remain rank and file with standard cost of living raises.