|
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have played a couple season 5's recently and have found the faction missions to be less then stellar. In the 4 games I have played no one completed their faction missions and most of them left feeling defeated (myself included). Most of them failed because they didn't know how season 5 worked. Some of us failed because the piece of the puzzle needed to even know there was a faction mission was presented in a tiny part of the story that had nothing to do with the adventure. The rest failed because they had no idea what their faction's mission was (requiring them to go to a website to find the letters).
After the last game I played I tried to figure out what the faction missions add to the game. Seasons 0-4 added a bond between players, helped newer players get into the game and feel part of something bigger, gave room for new interactions between players who wouldn't normally role play, and gave players a challenge to over come. I don't see these with season 5. I can't say I knew what faction anyone at my last table was until afterward when found out that we all failed. The martial characters had little interaction if any because they didn't have a goal they just kind of sat back and watched the show. The goals for the mission within the Scenario were hidden... After the Adventure I guessed at what it would take to complete my factions mission. I had no clue because in a 3 hour game the only hint was 1 line deep in the story. The newer players who play season 0-4 expect a letter from their faction leader letting them know how to help the faction out and when they didn't get one and were told they failed there is a bit of disappointment in there eyes.
The new faction missions don't add fun, challenge, or new interactions but seem to add frustration , disappointment and apathy. I love playing pathfinder and yes this change won't make me quit or play less but it does make it less fun then it use to.
So I ask you the leaders of the Society to think about changing the faction missions next season. It doesn't have to be the same as season 0-4 but something better then current system so that again we can get some new interactions, new challenges, and most of all some more fun.
|
I am sorry you feel "faction missions" are failing. To be honest in my area they work great. It is everyones responsibility to read and understand the guild to organized play and if they don't they should ask. The PFS leadership has taken great strides to make sure everyone know what the season goals are. They have put them on the website, they emailed them out before season start and they have included them in the Guide to Organized play on page 18. I am not sure what else you expect PFS leadership to do to get this information to people.
I am unsure how you felt that season 0-4 added a bond between players for faction missions as my experience was it usually distracted from the overall story, gave away plot points and usually had people more worried about finding their faction mission for the 1 extra prestige. There is still a challenge to overcome in the form of the secondary mission that players don't usually know and builds team building by making sure that the entire table is going for the same goal for the secondary prestige point. Most of the people in my area and surrounding areas like the changes and I doubt this is going to change.
This is going to sound harsh, but far to often if you don't get every gold, item, prestige point and special boon you feel you have failed. Well I am sorry to tell you that you shouldn't be getting everything and it borders on an entitlement attitude to think you will.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is going to sound harsh, but far to often if you don't get every gold, item, prestige point and special boon you feel you have failed. Well I am sorry to tell you that you shouldn't be getting everything and it borders on an entitlement attitude to think you will.
Well you have failed if you miss something, even though the campaign is tuned to allow a certain level of failure. It would be a very unhealthy attitude for a player or DM to go into the game expecting to fail a certain percent of gold or prestige or chronicle access just because there is a minimum benchmark.
I understand where Velsa's criticism is coming from given the fact that there are now goals in the scenarios that are not explicitly stated, although I don't see it as a problem since in every case but one that I have seen of using the new secondary success conditions they seems well thought out and relatively easy to accomplish if the party acts intelligently and doesn't just want to wreck shit. Overall I think that it works better than the old faction missions, many of which were pretty stupid and mechanically arbitrary.
I will say that in both of the instances I have played season 5 scenarios with the faction related boons it was far more disruptive than the old faction missions since the players of the appropriate factions knew they had a mission but had no idea what exactly it was because lets be fair, the faction goals are pretty broad. Specifically I remember the Quadira and Osirion missions in Glass River Rescue to have lead to wasting some time asking after specific things over and over again.
|
It doesn't help when one faction's goal shifts after the first mission it shows up. I could see fairly sizeable difficulties for Sczarni players if they don't play The Wardstone Patrol before the other missions where the Sczarni plotline is furthered. Furthermore, it can be fairly easy for GM's to miss faction related plot points, and even easier for the players to miss them. I would have missed the Sczarni plot point for Wardstone Patrol if the GM hadn't given me a shot at the end of the scenario because I'm pretty sure they missed it too.
|
|
The goals between the 2 missions have not shifted. The plot line was furthered and the goals may shift later on, but for 2 adventures that have dealt with sczarni faction goal, which is by the way, "Sczarni: Extend the Sczarni faction’s reach into central Avistan, and neutralize the faction’s rivals." The mission in the wardstone patrol was a hard one, but the intent is that you don't get everything. Expecting that you get every faction boon and prestige is, like I said before, boarderline entitlement attitude. Saying that the faction missions for have led to disruptive behavior in season 5 is misleading. Before season 5 I had players doing the same thing you described but in a much more disruptive manner and expecting something to happen because of information they got from their faction mission that other players may not have which led to massive amounts of people metagaming.
Paizo should not be blamed because a gm failed to convey something properly, or because the gm was not prepared to run an adventure. It is pretty plainly spelled out to the gm on how the faction missions should be handled.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Before season 5 I had players doing the same thing you described but in a much more disruptive manner and expecting something to happen because of information they got from their faction mission that other players may not have which led to massive amounts of people metagaming.
Chris, I still haven't made up my mind about the Season Five factions, but one very clear change is that metagaming is now expected. It's expected that players will read a scenario's blurbs, looking for which scenarios advance which factions' goals, and choosing a PC appropriately. (I'm going to cite examples from "Glass River Rescue" and "Stolen Heir," because I've just prepped each of them recently.)
"We need people to go to Andoran and ask a fellow to donate troops to our cause. We have a sorcerer, a cleric, and a summoner. Do you want to play your ranger?"
"Ah, sounds like there might be a job there for my wizard."
"What?!"
"Well, it's obviously an opportunity for my wizard to collect troops for Taldor."
"How do you know that?"
"We need low-level Pathfinders to go on patrol with a veteran Mendevian soldier."
"My dragon-hunting bloatmage is up for it."
"Why is that, pray tell?"
"Because he's a member of the Sczarni, and patrolling the boundary of the Worldwound is a natural opportunity to scope out rival crime families."
So, Chris, if you like Season 5 better, great. You're not alone. But please don't say that the new system has reduced the metagaming in the campaign. Picking the scenario based on which character receives boons is just as bad as picking a scenario baed on which character is best able to use the partially charged, high Caster Level wand on the Chronicle sheet. That's the most blatant type of metagaming, and we're all now expected to do it.
(And, I got to ask: how is acting on information that your PC has obtained, in character, metagaming?)
Paizo should not be blamed because a gm failed to convey something properly, or because the gm was not prepared to run an adventure. It is pretty plainly spelled out to the gm on how the faction missions should be handled.
Just to be clear here. Whose job is it, again, to make sure that the players all know their faction missions, and which ones apply to which scenarios? If we're heading into Andoran, asking about the Eagle Knights, that's a pretty obvious hint that the Cheliax faction (Spy on rival powers in the Inner Sea region.) should be involved. Is it the player's job to know that it isn't? Is it the GM's job to tell the Cheliax player that it isn't? Where is that spelled out?
When we hit Season 6 and the faction missions change, who's responsibility is it, then, to remember back to early Season 5 and know what the Taldor mission was? Or should we ignore Season 5 factions entirely, once the campaign has moved on?
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
One last question about factions and metagamin':
It has been an important note about PFS that, once the Venture Captain's mission briefing is started, players don't get to swap characters. (It's never been spelled out anywhere, but it's a pretty hard-and-fast rule in my experience.) "Hey, this mission sounds like it'll need a lot of sneakiness. I'll swap out my paladin and play my ninja instead." "No."
Should we relax that rule, if a player wants to swap in a character with a faction mission? "Hey, this mission sounds like it'll need someone to sneak around and it is a faction scenario for the Silver Crusade. I'll swap out my paladin and play my Silver Crusade ninja instead."
|
|
It has been an important note about PFS that, once the Venture Captain's mission briefing is started, players don't get to swap characters. (It's never been spelled out anywhere, but it's a pretty hard-and-fast rule in my experience.) "Hey, this mission sounds like it'll need a lot of sneakiness. I'll swap out my paladin and play my ninja instead." "No."
Should we relax that rule, if a player wants to swap in a character with a faction mission? "Hey, this mission sounds like it'll need someone to sneak around and it is a faction scenario for the Silver Crusade. I'll swap out my paladin and play my Silver Crusade ninja instead."
Hmm. I'm pretty sure I've switched characters after the briefing at least once. It's pretty much the opposite of metagaming, because one hopes that the Society would choose the most effective party for any given mission: "You are sending me to a wedding; it would be insane for you to pick a Cha-5 Tiefling Magus with no social skills. Obviously I showed up to the wrong meeting; here's the guy the message was meant for." "You need me to clear out the dungeon? Ha, I think you meant to summon my brother, the fighter. Let me grab him."
The only similar rule I've encountered is that you can't quit after the briefing. Once the briefing is done, you're committed to the scenario. (I mean, you can quit, but then you're going to be issued a chronicle and be part of the reporting.)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am sorry you feel "faction missions" are failing. To be honest in my area they work great. It is everyones responsibility to read and understand the guild to organized play and if they don't they should ask. The PFS leadership has taken great strides to make sure everyone know what the season goals are. They have put them on the website, they emailed them out before season start and they have included them in the Guide to Organized play on page 18. I am not sure what else you expect PFS leadership to do to get this information to people.
The problem is that it is inconsistent. You are given a mission in front of every adventure from season 0 to 4. Now in season 5 sometimes there might be something pertaining to your faction if somehow you ask the right question. And it is information you only need to have for 1 season.
I am unsure how you felt that season 0-4 added a bond between players for faction missions as my experience was it usually distracted from the overall story, gave away plot points and usually had people more worried about finding their faction mission for the 1 extra prestige. There is still a challenge to overcome in the form of the secondary mission that players don't usually know and builds team building by making sure that the entire table is going for the same goal for the secondary prestige point. Most of the people in my area and surrounding areas like the changes and I doubt this is going to change.
The faction mission gave new players a reason to interact with the GM and with fellow faction members. I don't know about you but I have grabbed new players in my faction and involved them in a season 1-4 faction mission loosening them up for the rest of the game. I have also seen people on there faction mission alone interact in ways they wouldn't normally interact because they have a mission to complete. Now with a secret secondary mission and a wide sweeping faction mission now they don't have to interact and don't know if they even need to for there wide sweeping faction mission.
This is going to sound harsh, but far to often if you don't get every gold, item, prestige point and special boon you feel you have failed. Well I am sorry to tell you that you shouldn't be getting everything and it borders on an entitlement attitude to think you will.
I am slight offended that you make that conclusion. In my first post I didn't complain about not getting the boon or not getting a prestige point in fact I have been given the opportunity it complete a faction mission because I was new and had enough integrity to be honest and not take the point. I stated that it was frustrating not just for me but 3 other GMs and 5 other players at my table and 3 previous games. The upsetting part for everyone is that unless the ask every NPC about there factions sweeping mission there is a good chance they will miss it. Especially when I is cryptic and doesn't make sense story wise. My faction mission had someone involved with something doesn't make any sense for the character involved.
In any case I am not asking for this to be tossed out completely but instead fixed. Ie something that reminds players of the faction mission in beginning or it the clue is in the getting started so people have a chance to catch it instead of depending on a random chance.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, Chris, if you like Season 5 better, great. You're not alone. But please don't say that the new system has reduced the metagaming in the campaign. Picking the scenario based on which character receives boons is just as bad as picking a scenario based on which character is best able to use the partially charged, high Caster Level wand on the Chronicle sheet. That's the most blatant type of metagaming, and we're all now expected to do it.
I really don't see an equivalence between considering which of your characters can use a faction boon and trying to get a partially charged wand or something.
In the first case, you are using in formation which while it may be metagame is freely publicized by Paizo which lets me know that it is intended to be used to help decide what to play with what character. I also assume that this is in general an attempt to ameliorate the known problem of people inadvertently wasting boons on characters that cannot benefit from them.
The second case likely involves someone rooting around on chronicle sheets of scenarios they have not played which is something that has been understood to not really be kosher from the start of the campaign.
That is why the second should be discouraged but we don't need to go around vilifying people who are trying to do the first.
|
|
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm going to chime in here. I'm from the same region as the OP and, this far into season 5, I much prefer the old way to the new. Here's why:
1. I feel disconnected from my factions. I built a Chelaxian paladin partly BECAUSE I wanted to have to, occasionally, either decline faction missions or be very conflicted about them. So far, I haven't even gotten a Chelaxian specific boon scenario because she's not been in tier for any of them, so I've had no chance to roleplay that aspect of her character.
2. New players know hardly anything about the factions and have no reason to learn. This makes me sad :(
3. I've skipped scenarios where my character was the proper faction because it would have negatively affected table balance. This is more important now because the scenarios are more difficult and table balance does matter. So I'm missing out not because I am entitled, but just the opposite, because I am trying to be a team player. In the past this wouldn't have mattered because I would have gotten a faction mission regardless of which character I played.
4. Casual players do not come to the board and read the faction missions. Heck, I know many non-casual players that don't read the boards. The one line blurb in the guide for each faction is not enough of a clue for most of the faction related boons I've seen and in fact, most require the board version. Which the player needs in front of them really because who is going to remember all the faction goals for each of their different character's factions. I try to make those available to my players but not all GMs do. So some casual players are missing out. And yet the casual player is important to our player base. And again even "non-casual" players don't always visit the boards.
5. Disseminating faction info is complicated if its not in the scenario. The old way, faction missions were right there, in the scenario, and it was easy peasy for the GM and the players to understand what they had to do. Not all GMs visit the boards. Not many players do either. The way the current system is set up, the info just isn't getting out there to players in an organized way. And if the GM doesn't know the faction write up for the season, he may not be able to pass on subtle hints to the player as to what they need to do.
And Chris brings in another point. What happens when faction goals change? It's not so bad if they only change at the beginning of each season, but even so, a player might end up with the wrong idea of their faction's goal because they're looking at the wrong season.
With that said, one suggestion would be to include handouts for faction missions for the factions involved in each scenario (and, in fact, this was done for one faction recently IIRC).
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I started playing PFS earlier this year and have never even played "normal" Pathfinder. I was skeptical when I heard about the faction mission changes for this season, but I'm a newbie so I figured I would try it out in order to have some kind of informed opinion.
Having played most of the available season 5 scenarios available right now, I have to say that I completely agree with what Katie says. Not having faction missions anymore is terrible and it winds up as a complete disconnect resulting in no reason or impetus for anyone to even care about factions. This opinion is held by everyone I have talked to about this subject in my area. I have yet to meet anyone down here who thinks this direction is a good idea.
As far as I knew those missions were the only mechanic to interact with your faction, so now your toons are basically out on an island with no mobile phone service. It's a total bummer for me because I thought the interactions between all the factions and stories that could be produced from them was an unlimited source flavor for the game. Well, now I have no idea what any of them are doing. After reading the above comments I guess there is a way for me to find out whats going on with them, but frankly a) I think that should be in-game info, and b) no way in hell do I have the time troll the Paizo site to find all that info. Sorry, I've got other things to do. I really hope the peeps in charge re-introduce the missions or some other mechanic for characters to interact with the factions again because right now it is pretty terrible.
/rant
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you're not invested in Season 5's metaplot, you can't act unhappy when you miss out on all the hooks. You need to pay attention to what has been happening. You can't just coast for prestige anymore by asking the GM if there's a macguffin in every room, or by asking team members to make the necessary skill check for you.
To be fair, there is an expectation on GMs that they will have the overall faction missions readily available to refresh the players. There has been a slight change in the Sczarni overall mission, but the mission sign-pointers for Sczarni players in the new missions have been marked in neon.
I love the new format over the old. I don't want a system where both the kids who have been listening and the kids who have been playing on their mobile phones get the same rewards.
|
|
Chris Mortika- Some people already read the scenario blurbs, in fact I have had people ask before I ran something to give them the blurb. I don't believe this is the right thing to do. I am kinda split on it. It is cool that if you have a character that is the right faction for a scenario to get to play, on the other hand there are people that intentionally avoid scenarios because they don't have a character with the correct faction because they feel they HAVE to have all the boons and get upset when they don't, but knowing something relates to your faction in no way is metagaming on the level that the old faction missions were.
As for your question about season 5 scenarios and the faction missions involved I have no idea how it will work in season 6. I am pretty sure the only people that know is John and Mike. I would be very interested to see how it works as well. I have faith that John and Mike will do it right as they have been already.
For your comment about who's job it is to know which factions are represented it is the players and the gm's. In our region we put on warhorn which factions are involved with each scenario, I let people know before I start the game which ones are involved, paizo now lists it on their website in the description. I am not sure what else you expect people to do to let the player know. Lets be honest, the boons, while nice, are not game breaking and really are minor things and it really ties back into that entitlement attitude that you should be able to get every little boon possible. What about new players that don't have a character of the right level and faction? They just loose out anyway. I think Paizo and campaign leadership have gone to great lengths to inform people, but there is only so much you can reasonably do. As the saying goes, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. I think this is appropriate here.
Velsa- see my above statement about the lengths Paizo has gone to get the information about which factions are involved with which scenarios and what your local coordinator and GM can do to further get the information to you since you don't want to read a scenario blurb on this website.
The secondary mission now makes everyone at the table want to work together instead of say 4 different faction members working independently of each other to get their second pp. To be clear in season 0-3 there was a faction war going on and you were not supposed to reveal what your faction mission was to other non faction members. This was widely disregarded but the rule was still there and thus the change happened. I am not saying that is the sole reason they were changed either.
I am sorry that you choose to be offended by my last statement, just like you choose to think the new faction missions don't add fun, challenge, or new interactions but seem to add frustration, disappointment and apathy. I love playing pathfinder and yes this change won't make me quit or play less but it does make it less fun then it use to. It is after all your choice to feel that way. This argument you choose to bring up has been brought up several times before and it lead to almost the same argument this is leading to. There should not have been a pp involved with your faction, just a boon. You describe the way it used to work not the way it works now.
I am slight offended that you make that conclusion. In my first post I didn't complain about not getting the boon or not getting a prestige point in fact I have been given the opportunity it complete a faction mission because I was new and had enough integrity to be honest and not take the point. I stated that it was frustrating not just for me but 3 other GMs and 5 other players at my table and 3 previous games. The upsetting part for everyone is that unless the ask every NPC about there factions sweeping mission there is a good chance they will miss it. Especially when I is cryptic and doesn't make sense story wise. My faction mission had someone involved with something doesn't make any sense for the character involved.
So you are offended that in your first post you say you didn't complain and I felt like you were, which by the way your whole post reads that way, then you post that which clearly indicates I was right in my line of thinking. It sounds like your gm didn't do their job of letting you know which factions were involved in the scenario, since you are a new player. You don't have to ask every npc. There are some knowledge checks that give some background info on the npc you are traveling with and if you didn't get the checks then so what, you missed out on a simple boon, but yet you are unhappy about this which says you feel you should have gotten it, even though you turned it down and did the right thing because the gm didn't do their job properly.
Katie- 1. I can understand the disconnect from your faction, but to be honest. I like the way the scenario faction stuff actually feels like part of the story and not something that was added on as an after thought. I think factions became too important. We are all part of the Pathfinder Society, and should be working together, we just have other goals as part of our faction that may or may not tie in with the current mission at hand.
2.It is our job as VO's, Gameday Coordinators and GM's to make players be aware of these things going on and it should not be put on paizo when this doesn't happen.
3. I am sure there are others that have done this as well, but you know as well as I do that this is not the rule but the exception offered by good players that want to do the right thing.
4. You are right, but once again there is only so much one can do to involve people and if they don't want to use the resources put out there we can't make them do it.
5. The old way lead to way to much metagaming in scenarios. I think the new way is much more elegant. Everyone is required to have the guide to organized play and the missions are in there.
Doublevison- my experience is if a group feels a certain way about things a new person entering that group will feel the same way as the group no matter what it is. As is evident by your post since you play in her area. I am not saying your viewpoints are invalid, but Katie and I played under those old systems and I would take this any day of the week over how it was run in s0-3. It is nothing against you personally, but that is the way things are typically.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am sorry you feel "faction missions" are failing. To be honest in my area they work great. It is everyones responsibility to read and understand the guild to organized play and if they don't they should ask. The PFS leadership has taken great strides to make sure everyone know what the season goals are. They have put them on the website, they emailed them out before season start and they have included them in the Guide to Organized play on page 18.
The blurbs on page 18 don't quite match up with all of the missions. Chelaxians in the wardstone patrol in particular were thrown a real curve ball there if they went with the guide instead of the letter.
I am not sure what else you expect PFS leadership to do to get this information to people.
Going back to the individual letters.
Going back to one specific goal per scenario, instead of three or four possible goals. With one goal in the scenario you're trying 1 key in 10 or so locks. With multiple objectives you're trying 4 keys into 20 locks a piece.
The good news is that if you feel the letters aren't as public knowledge as they could be you can do it yourself. Since the letters are information that every character/player is supposed to have anyway you can laminate them and pass them around the table whether or not you're dming.
I am unsure how you felt that season 0-4 added a bond between players for faction missions as my experience was it usually distracted from the overall story, gave away plot points and usually had people more worried about finding their faction mission for the 1 extra prestige.
Two ways I've seen.
1) Whats your faction? Shadowlodge?! YES! Shadowlodge for life! *brofist*
2) Dammit, I need a disable device check for this thing.. you have that skill? You will!?!? oh thankyouthankyouthankyou!
This is going to sound harsh, but far to often if you don't get every gold, item, prestige point and special boon you feel you have failed. Well I am sorry to tell you that you shouldn't be getting everything and it borders on an entitlement attitude to think you will.
Thats an overused, insulting term. There's nothing wrong with wanting a chance at success at least. Look at the success rate he's seeing... its ZERO. Of course he's going to conclude there's no chance of success here.
And yes, factions have taken a dive in importance/characterization. I know I've completely forgotten to bring them up with some of the newbies starting out because they didn't seem to matter much.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hi, Chirs Mullican. I don't want this to sound like I'm stomping on you or anything. I know that you're working hard to improve the Organized Play campaign.
Chris Mortika- Some people already read the scenario blurbs.... I don't believe this is the right thing to do. I am kinda split on it. It is cool that if you have a character that is the right faction for a scenario to get to play, on the other hand there are people that intentionally avoid scenarios because they don't have a character with the correct faction because they feel they HAVE to have all the boons and get upset when they don't, but knowing something relates to your faction in no way is metagaming on the level that the old faction missions were.
I apologize for repeating myself, Chris. In, say, season 2, PCs received messages from their faction leaders, and followed through on those, in character. I honestly don't see how that was 'meta-gaming'. If you can explain what you mean by that term, I'd be grateful.
But it is meta-gaming to make decisions based on information the characters don't know. If I GM a scenario, and know that there's a cool boon that fits my bard, or a cool magic item that my cleric can use, and if I choose which character to play based on that outside knowledge, that's what I understand as meta-gaming*.
I, also, have seen players beg off a scenario -- for which they have a legal PC -- in order to play it with the "right" PC (that is, a PC with a mission boon) later. Let me repeat that, because it's important. The current system acts as a disincentive to play. If that group had needed that player to make a legal table of three PCs and an NPC, that's a table of PFS that would not have happened. If that party would have died without the PC... you get the idea.
And please stop denigrating players who make this choice, as "entitled," as people who "HAVE to have all the boons". That's not the point; the boons are irrelevant. They want to play up the faction element of their characters.
Look, let's say Jeff has a 3rd or 4th-level PC working for Cheliax, let's say a ranger looking to become a Hellknight. His only options for engaging with the Paracountess at all are in two scenarios, and one of them is Tier 5-9**. If he plays the Tier 5-9 scenario now, with some other character, he loses that chance.
If Jeff wants to role-play that aspect of his ranger, he has to (a) read up on which scenarios are the right ones for Cheliax, and then (b) make sure he plays them with the ranger***. Please don't insult him by saying he's acting all entitled, or greedy about boons.
|
|
I consider having the factions who have missions sending more members the result of the faction heads pulling the venture captains strings.
Venture Captain: "So I have room on this quest into the verudian forest for either Oakenshot the druid, or Some city boy rogue Named Tadan..
Sczarni Representative: "Yeah, send Tadan. I hears there's some opportunities for mushroom types harvesting over there and he owes me a favor...
"Why not send the druid?
"He doesn't owe me a favor, and doesn't understand "profit margins"... do you understand profit margins mr venture captain?
"Why yes. Yes I do" *stamps approved".
|
|
I'd like some thoughts on this: I've read the guide, played one and Gm'ed at least 2 season 5 scenarios, with a third prepped but not run.
I gave a pal a copy of The Stolen Heir to run for his online group. He's had no experience with season 5 faction missions/objectives. How would YOU explain it to him?
I've got my ideas, but I'm pretty sure they'd just muddy the waters.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Chris,
I have re-read my post a few times now and feel I need to clear up a few of your assumptions and misconceptions.
1. My post is expressing the feelings I have for the current system and a plea to make it better because I believe it is lacking.
2. I am not new and no where in the post did I state I was new, your assumptions to prove your point is not appreciated. ( I have been playing for almost 2 years 4-5 times a month)
3. You accused me of having a entitlement mentality. I understand that labeling people and making assumptions about their personality makes it easier to dismiss them
4. I feel that my post wasn't complaining and neither did my wife because I didn't want to come off that way... I am not sure if you are bias because I don't like a system which you obviously do or if maybe I didn't communicate it properly.
5. The GMs that ran these games were at least 2 stars (2 of them 4 stars) and have characters deep in the retirement path and have either played eyes of the ten or played and ran eyes of the ten. They are great at what they do and I don't fault them at all.
So I will sum up what I was trying convey.
1. Faction missions in 0-4 required people to participate in the story by trying to complete a common goal even if it is secret from 1/2 the table. By having them in front of you it makes them accessible and easy to collaborate with other players of your faction. Faction missions in season 5 require people to go read the letters on a vague goal and go to the paizo website and read the blurb about the adventure to see if it pertains to you. This makes it less accessible and since you don't know who is in your faction it is hard to work on your faction with others.
2. Not getting information from your faction up front and communication from your faction makes people feel disconnected vs getting a letter from your venture captain each week.
3. This not just my opinion but matches the opinions of multiple people at both LGS's I play at.
I don't believe we are the only group that feels this way about the new faction missions and felt it best to express it in a constructive way ( see my first post asking them to update the process to make it better not change it back). If by some chance we are the only one who dislikes the change then I will happily listen to constructive posts and possibly ways we can make it better for our players
|
|
Chris Mortika- Missions that give away key plot points during a scenario that the faction leaders would have no idea in game on what is going on there that would lead players to know stuff about speculate and metagame things they otherwise would not have done without the knowledge they didn't have from their faction mission that their faction leader really should have no way of knowing. I guess it isn't truely metagaming, but in a way it is.
It is poor taste on that VO then for telling you such a thing and the problems with QFP is part of the reason boons should not be revealed to players. Yes it happens, but once again it shouldn't be. And your point proves that people play certain factions/class combinations for the boons and not the RP aspects. I will admit that there are some people that play for RP reasons but by and large this is not the case. In Phoenix I know of 2 players that refuse to play certain season 5 scenarios because they want the boons and have said as such. Talking with other venture officers, which I do on a daily basis, this is some of the same stuff in their regions as well so lets not try to kid ourselves that by and large it is for RP reasons and more for "I want the shiney boon/extra reward for playing with that faction."
The entitlement attitude I am referring to is people expect to get every pp, boon etc and when they don't they are upset. Sorry, but as in life you don't always get everything you want and you shouldn't get everything you want. I think I have been pretty clear in my posts about it.
|
|
As a GM, I love not having to hand out faction missions and have to field questions about 'is THIS where my faction mission is?' in every new room.
As a player, I feel like factions don't matter too much, and I don't like to play my faction-appropriate characters in scenarios because the conditions are too opaque. I can just GM it and get my boon without having to fumble in the dark for it.
I know that is against the spirit of the boons, but the rules support it as a valid option.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Mullican (I can't just call you "Chris", or "Chris M")--
I agree, the first seasons of scenarios included a number of implausible faction assignments. "You will meet a balding man named Rashad. He will have a jelly sandwich in his right .. no, his left coat pocket. Take a bite out of it without any other members of your party noticing." We just chalk that up to divination magic on the payroll, I guess.
But there were also some terrific faction missions. Some of them were funny ("I do this for Taldor.") and others were intriguing, or opened up aspects of the background that enriched the scenario. I think that Season 4 did a good job of that, and all the people involved -- writers, developers -- should be proud of that improvement.
My experience with role-playing versus treasure hunting players differs. I think it's regional: a couple of people in one city or another can make the difference.
And I concur that there are some -- maybe a lot -- but I don't think most -- players who have developed an attitude which demands all the loot, all the prestige, all the boons. I've seen one player retire characters because he lost out on a boon. I've had players get up and walk away from the table last season because their PCs were between sub-tiers and another player had voted to play in the lower sub-tier.
But again, I think it clumps. If somebody tries to pull that kind of stuff in other places, the playerbase won't stand for it.
Most of this is besides the point. How is the Season 5 Faction set-up going? A number of people are having serious problems, and I think it's better to address them. So, in your neck of the woods ('neck of the desert'?) how do you manage players who pick the "wrong character" for a scenario and miss out on a faction mission? Do you let them switch characters?
What role do you think factions play in Season 5? If a new player walks inready to build a character, how important is the faction in all of that?
|
|
I agree with some faction missions being good in S1-3, but mostly they weren't. They were tacked on and mostly garbage. Yes Season 4 went to great lengths to make sure the faction missions were much more integrated and less spoilerific. People in regions definitely make a difference on how they are received.
In our area factions are a group of people you sometimes do favors for and sometimes get something cool if you do. In season 0-2 with the faction war it didn't feel like you really worked for the PFS you went on missions for them but either 1 or 2 of your prestige came from faction missions it was much more about working for a faction than actually working for PFS. In seasons 3/4 you went on a mission for PFS and did side missions for your faction, so now we are much more involved in helping the society and not just our factions. In season 5 our primary motivations are to help PFS, which I think is what should be happening, we joined PFS, not the cheliax faction, and occasionally we get the opportunity to help our faction out. Factions should help with background of characters and motivations but they should not dominate everything like they did before. If someone comes to my table and they happen to have a character that is of the right faction and right level for that scenario then before the mission starts if they want to switch characters I have no problem with it, but not everyone has a character of the right faction and level, especially new players.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've read this thread with interest and I fall in the group who liked the original missions better as what you currently get in season 5.
The biggest issue in my view are the casual players
The PFS leadership has taken great strides to make sure everyone know what the season goals are. They have put them on the website, they emailed them out before season start and they have included them in the Guide to Organized play on page 18. I am not sure what else you expect PFS leadership to do to get this information to people.
First - let me agree that the PFS leadership went out of their way to reach people.
But let me explain why it doesn't reach everyone.
It is highly beneficial for season 5 is players go to these webpages and follow what is going on. But we all know there is only a minority which reads these pages. Not all 60K PFS players are here on a regular basis and read or post. That cuts off one way of communication.
Players who started before season 5, downloaded the guide once but never again. Players who don't read the guide cover to cover but only pick out what they feel is important. So the guide doesn't necessarily work either.
E-mail to everyone - sounds that should work? No - it doesn't necessarily. I have approx. 50% of players who never registered here. We are talking casual players (friends), young players (children < 13 years), players who don't care enough, family members for whom I do all the electronic work, new players who play some 3-10 scenarios and will be gone again - or come back a year later, players who send paizo e-mail straight into junk/advertisement or only have them mail to a secondary address seldom read.
I was reminded of this just a few days ago when I installed some e-mail for my son (he just turned 13) and he immediately had some messages in his inbox - some older ones from Paizo. I know the number of such people is extreme for my very local area. But I can't believe none of these exist elsewhere.
Add to this that you might have players who hop around seasons and don't do them in order - and it gets confusing. Oh - today I play Black Waters - so I don't need to look out how to undermine the Chelaxian enemies. Next week is season 5 but then it is season 3 followed by 5 again.
I had a group of 3 brand new players starting in summer. Doing season 5 was not an option with the lack of tier 1-5 scenarios. Mix them with 3 players who have played a lot and you start selecting scenarios solely by which of the experienced players is (more importantly isn't) around and which holes can you fill.
I also wonder how well the missions will work in 3 years time. Will the goals of the faction stay static forever or will you have to hunt down old write-ups for players just starting or old players going back who have forgotten what the goals have been several years ago.
I'm not saying that the old system was perfect. The one advantage it had was - everything was in one single place. You could give a player with hardly any background of his faction a small piece of paper and he (likely) would know what to do.
Or in other words - it was simpler for the casual player to take part in something he felt only he was responsible to do.
It also kind of worked years later (yep - Silver Crusade was doing Andoran and some missions made less sense taking into account recent developments - but hey - the players I'm talking about didn't know what had happened since anyhow).
All in all - there are some bits I like more now. Secondary success conditions, the emphasis to work together. But the faction part to me doesn't work as well as it did before.
|
|
I think this last post gets to the heart of the matter.
Are factions a thing we want in PFS? I can totally understand how many players who really dig their factions feel a disconnect in the season 5 scenarios. There also appears to be a camp that thinks a Pathfinder's loyalty should be to the Society first and above all else (kinda like Grand Lodge).
Is there still some kind of "Shadow War" for Absalom? Have we moved past this? And why must a Pathfinder choose a faction at all? Grand Lodge's unquestioning loyatly to the Decemvirate isn't a good fit for everyone.
I'm not saying factions are good or bad, but under the present system it seems that it would almost be easier to simply do away with them altogether. Then your PC would have to be loyal to the Society/Decemvirate - otherwise they wouldn't be in the Society.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Are factions a thing we want in PFS?
For me personally, no. At least, not in the form we're used to. If they were treated like ethnicities or other background details (i.e., mostly fluff with options for minor mechanical benefits), that'd be great.
And if that had been how they'd been handled from the beginning, I bet no one would be asking for the things asked for in this thread; it's only the memory of how things have been that makes anyone want it back.
Is there still some kind of "Shadow War" for Absalom? Have we moved past this?
To my knowledge, that's no longer a thing. Which of course totally changes the nature of what the factions are.
And why must a Pathfinder choose a faction at all?
That's a very good question. We're not even required to choose a birthplace, so having to choose a faction doesn't make much sense.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think this last post gets to the heart of the matter.
Are factions a thing we want in PFS? I can totally understand how many players who really dig their factions feel a disconnect in the season 5 scenarios. There also appears to be a camp that thinks a Pathfinder's loyalty should be to the Society first and above all else (kinda like Grand Lodge).
Is there still some kind of "Shadow War" for Absalom? Have we moved past this? And why must a Pathfinder choose a faction at all? Grand Lodge's unquestioning loyatly to the Decemvirate isn't a good fit for everyone.
I'm not saying factions are good or bad, but under the present system it seems that it would almost be easier to simply do away with them altogether. Then your PC would have to be loyal to the Society/Decemvirate - otherwise they wouldn't be in the Society.
I'm starting to lean this way as well. The original faction mission system had problems, but I don't think the new system is really any better. Now it can be harder to muster tables where everyone is in the same subtier (before even considering party balance), because everyone is so keen to play their faction-appropriate PC and nothing else.
I think I'd rather just have factions as bits of roleplaying, with perhaps some minor in-game benefits that don't last past the scenario (such as a Taldan NPC who is impressed by Taldor-faction PCs, who then get a bonus on Diplomacy/Bluff rolls, or a Varisian innkeeper who automatically upgrades a Sczarni PC to the deluxe suite when they stay for the night).
|
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Factions are definitely a thing I think adds to PFS. When I started (way back in season zero), they were something that clearly separated Pathfinder Society from Living Greyhawk and they rapidly became one of my favorite parts of the game. I miss not getting the missions and I still hand them out whenever I GM. (I also have a 99% completion rate of players doing their mission, even though they know there are no out-of-game benefits for doing so anymore, making me think that players in my region like them too.)
I believe factions and their missions add a lot of personality to people's characters. At the end of the day, I think Pathfinding is something that characters do. It's close to a job--show up, get the artifacts or the knowledge, get paid. Factions are much closer to what characters are. If you encounter an Andoran, you know they believe in democracy and are against slavery, which gives people a better idea of how they will react to a given situation. It gives them a motivation for adventuring, for taking the risks that they do beyond just "get the stuff that these ten creepy masked people want me to get." Chelaxians, Taldans, Silver Crusaders--deciding how they fit into those organizations gives players a good hook for their characters and ties their character much more closely to the world of Golarion, which I think is a very good thing.
They also added a lot of lore to the world in and of themselves, which I enjoy.
Furthermore, I think a lot of people find the idea of secret missions rather problematic. If they don't know what they are supposed to do, it feels more unfair when they fail then if they know what they are supposed to do and aren't able to manage it.
|
|
Are factions a thing we want in PFS? I can totally understand how many players who really dig their factions feel a disconnect in the season 5 scenarios. There also appears to be a camp that thinks a Pathfinder's loyalty should be to the Society first and above all else (kinda like Grand Lodge).
I really like the factions. I like having variety in characters.
Judging from the faction boards, what I've seen playing, and the Maslows pathfinders thread loyalty to the society isn't that high on peoples lists. There's a number of reasons for this. New players just make a character without really knowing the in game society. Its hard to align with goals that are canonically mysterious, many people just come up with a background that doesn't include the society, or isn't focused around the society. Many of the venture captains are rude, insulting, unlikable, and make you wonder why anyone would go accross the street to get a pack of gum for them much less delve into the monster infested bowels of the earth.
The factions give an alternate explanation for "What the heck is my character doing here?" that inevitably arises from the metagame consideration that you HAVE to be a member of the pathfinder society. The silver crusading paladin is TRYING to steer the society towards something better. The Andorans are using the pathfinders individuality as a platform to proclaim the benefits and power of democracy, empowering the common man and the rights of the individual. The chelaxians are trying to take over the place, and teh scarzni are hiding illegal things in unusual places to smuggle them accross the borders and make money as they adventure.
I'm not saying factions are good or bad, but under the present system it seems that it would almost be easier to simply do away with them altogether. Then your PC would have to be loyal to the Society/Decemvirate - otherwise they wouldn't be in the Society.
And that would be wrong.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How about you don't try and dictate how other players roleplay their characters. Just because you think every PC's primary loyalty should be to PFS doesn't mean that is true for everyone. It's not BadWrongFun that my sorceror is just using the society as a means to the end of advancing his social standing in Cheliax.
In season 5 our primary motivations are to help PFS, which I think is what should be happening, we joined PFS, not the cheliax faction, and occasionally we get the opportunity to help our faction out. Factions should help with background of characters and motivations but they should not dominate everything like they did before.
I never told someone how to role-play their characters and I would appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth stating that I did. What I said, and let me say it again so you understand, is in previous seasons it was all about helping out ones faction, and who cares about the organization you decided to join, this was especially true in season 0-2, it shifted slightly in season 3 and 4 in that you had 1 mission from the society, of which you are a member of, and 1 from your faction. Now in season 5 it has shifted again so that the society sends you on a mission and you get fame from doing that, but if you go above/do what the society expects all of its members to do you get some extra fame and occasionally you get to help your faction out when the opportunity arises and if you do so you get special advantages other people would not get. I never said it was badwrongfun to join the society to further your interests, in fact I said your faction should be part of your background and part of roleplaying your character, you just don't have to have a faction mission to do that, nor does making an entire party of the same faction with your friends stop because you don't have a faction mission to do.
People act like you have to have a faction mission to roleplay your character, and you really don't.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
If you encounter an Andoran, you know they believe in democracy and are against slavery, which gives people a better idea of how they will react to a given situation. It gives them a motivation for adventuring, for taking the risks that they do beyond just "get the stuff that these ten creepy masked people want me to get." Chelaxians, Taldans, Silver Crusaders--deciding how they fit into those organizations gives players a good hook for their characters and ties their character much more closely to the world of Golarion, which I think is a very good thing.
They also added a lot of lore to the world in and of themselves, which I enjoy.
All of this is also true of ethnicities, social background, or choices of Day Jobs (having Profession: Baker versus Profession: Slaver says a lot, for instance), but we don't force players to choose a Day Job or nationality for every single PC and then attach half their item access to their ability to perform errands for their baking mentor or slave-ship captain in every single scenario.
Everything you just said you liked about factions still exists without the old faction missions.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
It exists but its not shown. Its on stage but doesn't get the spot light..
Everything you just said you liked about factions still exists without the old faction missions.
Which is exactly the same as ethnicity or Day Job, yet I don't see any threads requesting that these details be made mandatory or be tied to item access or have hooks written into the scenarios.
|
|
Let me add that for some of my PC's, faction is a big part of their character. My rogue and lore warden are total "Captain Andoran" types whilst my ranger and cleric try to thwart evil via the Silver Crusade.
But what about my wizard, who's in this to explore and gather knowledge? Osirion is what I picked, because I'm nor currently interested in playing a Grand Lodge PC. But it almost engenders a degree of loyalty to the Ruby Prince FAR above what I'd envision for this charater's personality. He's the type that woul djoin the Society for the adventure and such, and not worry too much about broader political machinations.
Any thoughts for this type of PC from those who support the existing faction structure?
|
|
Which is exactly the same as ethnicity or Day Job, yet I don't see any threads requesting that these details be made mandatory or be tied to item access or have hooks written into the scenarios.It exists but its not shown. Its on stage but doesn't get the spot light..
Everything you just said you liked about factions still exists without the old faction missions.
It was nice having something about the characters given an individual moment in the spotlight.
|
|
People act like you have to have a faction mission to roleplay your character, and you really don't.
You do need a faction mission to feel like you're actually a part of something besides the society however. And while the faction specific scenarios sometimes help with that, often they do not.
If we HAVE to report what faction we are, it should actually be present in-game, not just in our private roleplay.
|
|
People act like you have to have a faction mission to roleplay your character, and you really don't.You do need a faction mission to feel like you're actually a part of something besides the society however. And while the faction specific scenarios sometimes help with that, often they do not.
If we HAVE to report what faction we are, it should actually be present in-game, not just in our private roleplay.
I disagree. Each of my characters feels like they are part of their faction regardless of which season the scenario I am playing is.
Obviously I come down on the side of season 5 handling of factions. Clearly, communication of how the new faction setup worked did not reach everyone this year and hopefully next year everyone will be on the same page.
I still think that GMs, and/or whoever is arranging the game day, is responsible for being aware of the special rules and rule changes, as well as making players aware of these things. I include making players aware ahead of time what factions are most appropriate to a given scenario. It is not at all hard to do, IMO.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Factions are much closer to what characters are. If you encounter an Andoran, you know they believe in democracy and are against slavery, which gives people a better idea of how they will react to a given situation. It gives them a motivation for adventuring, for taking the risks that they do beyond just "get the stuff
Sometimes, not always. I've got an Andoran who is a member because she is violently anti slavery. But she thinks democracy ( at least as practiced in Andor) is one of the silliest things ever.
For some of my characters their faction is important, for others it is irrelevant and chosen only because they HAVE to have one. Ironically, some f the characters who cared most were in the Lantern and Shadow Lodges.
I'm definitely in the "factions are all but irrelevant now" camp. In fact I suspect that this is deliberate and that the current plan is to totally eliminate them in season 6, doing it this way to reduce the nerd rage.
|
|
Chris,
I wanted to reply to a couple of things you said across multiple posts so I have gathered it all here. I think I may have some of them out of chronological order, I hope it is not more confusing this way.
...
Most of this is besides the point. How is the Season 5 Faction set-up going? A number of people are having serious problems, and I think it's better to address them. So, in your neck of the woods ('neck of the desert'?) how do you manage players who pick the "wrong character" for a scenario and miss out on a faction mission? Do you let them switch characters?
My situation is somewhat unique, I'm the only one running for a small group of players. I know all of their characters and their factions and I select the scenarios based on the factions of the players' characters.
If I ever get to the point that I am organizing multiple tables a day I will makes sure that my players are well aware of the "most appropriate" factions for a given scenario if there are any for that scenario.
What role do you think factions play in Season 5? If a new player walks in ready to build a character, how important is the faction in all of that?
Faction is as important as the player wants it to be for his character.
....
But it is meta-gaming to make decisions based on information the characters don't know.
I agree with this statement, mostly. I would say "it is meta-gaming to make In-Character decisions based on information the characters don't know." This may seem like a minor difference but it makes a big difference to me.
If I GM a scenario, and know that there's a cool boon that fits my bard, or a cool magic item that my cleric can use, and if I choose which character to play based on that outside knowledge, that's what I understand as meta-gaming*.
To me the situation you describe above is not meta-gaming. This is because the character is not involved in deciding what mission he takes. In-game the society, generally in the form of the Venture Captains, decide(s) which missions you character takes on.
*
And the other, Tier 3-7, is extraordinarily disappointing. Cheliax's Season Five Faction Goal is to 'secure important artifacts and sources of power'. There is no hint of that in "Wardstone Patrol." I've run Warstone four or five times, and no Cheliax PC has ever gotten that boon, because they have no idea what to look for.
If people read the Faction Head letters for this season. This would not have been a problem. For this reason I have the faction head letters for the season printed and in my GM packet at all times.
Just to be clear here. Whose job is it, again, to make sure that the players all know their faction missions, and which ones apply to which scenarios? If we're heading into Andoran, asking about the Eagle Knights, that's a pretty obvious hint that the Cheliax faction (Spy on rival powers in the Inner Sea region.) should be involved. Is it the player's job to know that it isn't? Is it the GM's job to tell the Cheliax player that it isn't? Where is that spelled out?
Well it is definitely the GMs responsibility to know. In my opinion, it is also the players responsibility to know. In my opinion, a good GM makes sure that their players are aware of enough information to give them the possibility of success. There is no harm in the Cheliax player asking, as long as it does not slow the game down to the point where you can not finish in the allotted time. "Where is it spelled out?" To me, all of this is common sense, and I am having trouble understanding why everyone has had such a hard time with it.
When we hit Season 6 and the faction missions change, who's responsibility is it, then, to remember back to early Season 5 and know what the Taldor mission was? Or should we ignore Season 5 factions entirely, once the campaign has moved on?
I would again expect the GM, or if someone else is arranging the game-day then that person, to know what season the scenario is and which seasons faction missions, if any, are relevant to it. Given that the Faction Head letters are on the boards and, most likely, will be until Paizo is no more, There should be no problem is getting this information, it would be just a few minutes of the prep that you should be doing before running the game anyway.
The rest of this post is more general.
I would probably be considered a "Boon Hunter" by some. I want to know what boons are available with what scenarios, so that if I have a character that a boon is particularly appropriate for I have a chance to get it for them. That appropriateness may be something that will sync with the build, but it will more likely be concept driven. I might even be inspired to a whole new character by a boon I find out about, and thus build a character with the intent of playing it in that scenario hoping to get that boon.
I can not imagine retiring a character because I did not get a certain boon. I suppose I might if that character concept was built around the acquisition of that boon. Back when Hellknight Signifer was only available through a boon, if I had built a character to be a Hellknight Signifer and missed that boon, I would probably have retired that character, at least until another opportunity to get access to Hellknight Signifer showed up.
I do not believe I am metagaming in any of this. I do not think I am breaking with the spirit of PFS, nor do I feel I am breaking any rules in this. I am not reading the success conditions for these boons, unless I need to because I am GMing the scenario for others. I am not reading scenarios I am not running.
Just my thoughts.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Joanna, I also started in Season 0, and factions were, and remained through Season 4, a pain in my tail, as both a player and a GM.
As a player, I have a plethora of PCs (currently 19 registered, probably 20 once I receive an Undine boon). Most of them are Andoran, because, quite frankly, out of a bad lot, Andoran is the least objectionable. I have a Szcarni, mainly for the amusement of the patchwork that it is part of, and a couple or three Grand Lodge.
Also as a player, in past seasons, I was definitely offput by all the "Is it in THIS room?" stuff going on all the time. "Are we there, yet?" stuff seriously detracted from my enjoyment, and made it difficult for me to remember what the heck we were actually supposed to be doing at such-and-so place.
Add in incoherent faction missions, hard-to-hear GMs, and you get players asking, "What are we supposed to be doing here?" Meh.
As a GM, you get players who are only looking for their faction mission stuff, and not really paying attention to the actual Pathfinder Society mission. Heck, the other day I GMed an early season scenario, gave out the faction missions, and, even though they are purely fluff, still got the, "Is it in HERE?" questions. Definitely lowered my enjoyment of the game, and made me feel like the players were all over the place instead of dealing with the mission.
Factions often feel like you have to worship Pholtus, I think his name was. The new versions of faction preparedness seems to bve good, as long as the players have read the letters from their faction heads so they know what their faction is interested in.
Without that, it is like an "experimental" session I got involved in, where the GM gave some of us random, unidentified faction mission notes, not our own, without any clue as to what faction it was for. That wasn't much fun, either. I know that my second PP relies on the other members of my faction here, and I cannot really do anything to help them. Made me feel like a mushroom. In the closet, all wet, in the dark.
My vote? Eliminate factions entirely, or make them minor RP things, not a central concern. Where they have been in the past was too visible, and taking too much focus away from the goal of the game, which is what the VC asked our party to do, not what <redacted> wants to add to her BDSM wardrobe...
|
|
I rather like the new secondary success conditions and faction boon system. As a GM, I got incredibly tired of people being more focused on finding their faction leader's tea set or some other such silliness. We are crack adventurers, here to find the lost Tome of Knowledge, penned by Mage-King Pharom the 3rd in his final years. We are not here to collect every spoon, mold, and other such madness. And when you have 6 different questions of "hey, is my mcguffin in *this* room" going on, we lose a lot of time and the other players zone out.
Consider me a fan of the new system. That said, I also encourage players to *act in a way that benefits their faction*, even with no mechanical benefit. Preach the benefits of Devils on the frontlines to the crusaders. Talk about the value of central authority, promoting the Taldan monarchy system. Collect body parts of demons for the Sages of Osirion to study. If you act to aid your faction only for the PA, do you really support your faction?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
I've only done a couple of the Season 5s. So far the lack of factions bug me as well as some of the faction rewards.*
I'm in the camp of factions provide flavour and comradship. Does anyone remember the "Andoran Favor?" (tricking/scamming the Andorans into doing the Chelaxian faction mission). Ksenia is Taldor not Cheliax because of the history of Taldor (and picking on Andorans) Dex is silver crusade because of his belief in law and good**
Factions are also fun. When I ran <redacted> I tried to get an all Taldan/Chel party because of the Andoran vanity boon. (It's fun to introduce Ksena as "Baroness of Almas, and Eagle Knight")
*
**
|
|
I have played a wide range of scenarios over the years and gotten some of the boons from playing X scenario and honestly I never recall to use them. The boons are nice but my chances of recalling to use them when the situation arrives is low. I can not think I am the only one who runs into this issue.
When I started society I made a very Taldan character who cared nothing for society and was using it to fulfill his gnomish need for adventure and to better Taldor. I saw over time how much my derailing of games to find my magical tea set was ruining the flow of the scenarios. I then dialed it back as much as I could but old faction missions still required you to steal the spotlight.
It also always struck me as weird when a scenario started with you being whisked away to some mission in the night yet your faction head knew about the rare purple fungus that grows in the place you found out seconds ago you were headed to. The missions a lot of times felt tacked on because they had to be there.
You are a Pathfinder. Your missions is what your Venture Captain tells you it is. If there is a chance you can help further the goals of the secondary group you ally yourself with then have at it and maybe it will confer an extra bonus to you. You can not expect that every mission you go on to have something for your faction.
Each player should be responsible for knowing what it is their faction is trying to do this season. It is in the guide, on the forums, and emailed to the account used for your Paizo account. The guide is required reading and even so the higher ups do their damnedest to make it easy to know your faction goals. I see no failure on the end of Mike and John. If a faction mission is missed then either the player failed or the GM failed to communicate something.
|
|
I gotta agree with the last posts by Alexander and Mason.
As a GM and a Player I've experienced the issues and concerns they described.
I support the Season 5 faction mission system even though I think it needs a little reworking. But system tinkering happens every season, so if players dont like the new system much get a thread going on how to improve upon it.
Complaints are great, recommendations are better! :)
When I play I don't really play my PC around the Faction I usually plan it around his level.
The RP aspect of society play should be player driven as only the player really knows what his character is about. If that player wants to RP his character he can do so within the scenario without the need of a faction mission driving his goals. Some players don't even like to RP much, they just want to roll the bones(which is ok with me if its okay with them).