Hi all,
Pondering a few simple changes for rogues:
1. A rogue using sneak attack(s) is treated as full BAB.
2. If a rogue attacks an opponent that any of his allies are threatening, that target become eligible for a sneak attack. In order for a ranged attack to qualify, the rogue must be within 10 ft. of the target.
3. If a rogue is able to strike an opponent that is not in combat and otherwise qualifies for a sneak attack, the rogue's sneak attack deals maximum damage.
1 because rogues should be adept at landing sneak attacks, this improves them a bit in this regard.
2 because a sneak attack should be able to occur anytime a rogue is able to attack a distracted opponent. If an opponent is engaged with any other combatant, they're going to have to take their eyes off of the rogue at some time. The 10 ft. requirement, because in order to take advantage of these split second moments, you have to be close.
Flanking is still the preferred method (for the +2), but rogues will more reliably get their sneak attacks in.
3 because sneaking ahead and assassinating an opponent should be a possibility for a rogue rather than a bad idea.
Thoughts?
1. i like it, makes him similar to monk and his full-BAB flurry.
2. merely threatened is too much, i think, but i always thought that it should be: if you provoke an AoO, rogues could sneak you.
3. nice one, too. out of combat specifies what, out of initiative, and unaware that rogue is a threat?
4. to these, i would remove concealment as hampering condition for sneaks ('cause "dark alley"), and called sneak attack fixed. now something to do about his supposed skill superiority...
2. merely threatened is too much, i think, but i always thought that it should be: if you provoke an AoO, rogues could sneak you.
What if it is changed to "As a full-round action, a rogue can make one sneak attack at his highest attack bonus against an opponent that is threatened by another opponent." This way, the rogue will usually be able to get 1 sneak attack off/round. Still having the ability to get multiple sneak attacks on flanks and other situations.
3. nice one, too. out of combat specifies what, out of initiative, and unaware that rogue is a threat?
Exactly. Don't want it gimmicky where invisibility or something else gives max damage sneak attacks all the time. If the opponent is not in combat and unaware of the rogue, then they're a suitable target for max damage sneak attack.
4. to these, i would remove concealment as hampering condition for sneaks ('cause "dark alley"), and called sneak attack fixed. now something to do about his supposed skill superiority...
That seems pretty powerful. Maybe that could be a feat.
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Dark Alley (new rogue talent):
A rogue with this talent gains low-light vision. If she already has low-light vision, or dark vision, her range with that ability is doubled. Finally, a rogue with this talent may make a sneak attack normally against a foe who benefits from concealment. A foe with total concealment relative to the rogue is still immune to her sneak attack.
The Shadow Strike feat, from the APG, already allow sneak attack damage against foes under concealment and it is clearly designed for Rogues.
Feats are more precious than talents for a rogue - it should be a talent option. Honestly, a big problem with rogues is that the talent options are mostly pretty horrible in comparison to other abilities available at a comparable level for other classes. It's pretty telling that the most recommended talents are the ones that let the rogue take a different feat.
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Feats are more precious than talents for a rogue - it should be a talent option. Honestly, a big problem with rogues is that the talent options are mostly pretty horrible in comparison to other abilities available at a comparable level for other classes. It's pretty telling that the most recommended talents are the ones that let the rogue take a different feat.
This is pretty much true here.
Like Esoteric Scholar
Esoteric Scholar (Ex)
Benefit: Once a day, a rogue with this talent may attempt a Knowledge check, even when she is not trained in that Knowledge skill.
This talent itself is just so.. utterly terrible. Not the worse I've seen, but pretty bad.
According to this Talent, Rogues cannot attempt knowledge checks without it or perhaps once they have it, they can only attempt them once per day. Even if they are trained in the knowledge skill.
Nevermind that bards have been doing this since core-rulebook since the start. Esoteric Scholar should read thusly..
Esoteric Scholar (Ex)
Benefit: Once per day, a Rogue with this talent may make a knowledge skill check untrained. She gains a bonus on this check equal to half his class level. At fifth level, and every five levels after, she gains another use of this ability. In addition she may expend a use of this ability after making a knowledge check but before results are known to add an additional +5 to any knowledge check as a free action.
Bam! Suddenly there is use for it. And its different than bardic knowledge. He gets a few times per day he gets to use the ability, but she can add additional +5 to the skill check.
A lot of Rogue talents can be improved simply by increasing their number of uses a day.
The roll twice for a skill check talents, for example, should be bumped up to limitless uses a day. The various once a day talents should have their uses increased to 2 + 1 per 5 Rogue levels or the like. (Or add in a Ki pool type mechanic that allows points to be spent to gain extra uses of these abilities).
Powerful Sneak needs to have the penalties to attack rolls removed.
I'm not a big fan of pseudo full BAB, at some point I just wonder why you don't just give them full BAB and be done with it.
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Well lets look at it as Rules as Intended, rather than RAW cause by Raw, Rogues can only make 1 knowledge check a day. (Cause thinking to hard makes rogue head esplode.)
1) Not being trained in it, means well, you're not bloody trained in the skill. So if you have no other bonuses.. At average you're going to make a 10
Lets just assume you have no other bonuses right now
So You have knowledge Arcana.. This starts off at 15 DC and goes up (Which the 15 you have to have detect magic to do.)
So you'll never make any arcana checks.
Dungoneering
10 to ID a rock type. So.. You could have made this without the talent at the same chance.
15 to ID slope. Okay, 25% of the time you'll get this one. Just in case you ever needed to figure out the slope.
15+ underground hazard. You probably won't make this one for very long even then at base you have a 20% chance.
20 Determine Depth - 5% chance.
Luckily Rogues get Dungoneering as a class skill! So one rank and you get +20% to your chances to make it, and never actually needed this talent.
Engineering
10 - ID Dangerous stuff in construction Could already do this.
15 - ID Style or Age of building. 25% of the time. Might be useful?
20 - ID Weakness. Honestly, if you're looking for a buildings weakness, its probably a strategy you have, and not something you throw off the cuff randomly.
Geography
10 - ID accent
15 - Recognize regional terrain features.
20 - Know there is a village nearby.
Again another one of the weaker knowledge skills.. and one that is most odd. I suppose this would be off the cuff. But do you really want to rely on a 5% to know there is a village nearby?
Pretty much the list keeps going on like this.
1 ability you could have made it anyways.
1 you'll make at 25% of the time with no bonuses.
1 you'll make at 5% of the time with no bonuses.
Assuming a 14 int, you only increase your chances by 10%. You could spend feats to increase it another 15% or 10% per feat, to make those knowledge checks. So here you are, spending all of these feats, and talents to try and increase your knowledge skills to the point you could reasonably make the 20 dc check. /once per day/
There is a reason the bard's ability increases with level. Because you're not putting skill points in it!
Also, Increased uses per day +bonus - You're still limited to very few times per day. /and/ by my wording, it doesn't apply to trained knowledge checks for the +1/2 bonus.
Bard vs Rogue with this talent.. Bard just takes 10 each time. on important checks they could go natural 20. So the flat +5 bonus is nothing honestly compared to being able to infinity perform knowledge checks (And the bard could get a flat +4 bonus to each and every knowledge check by putting a single rank in it if they wanted)
EDIT:
But Ah Ha! My Rogue has 18 int, you might say.
Great!
That means you have 12 skill points per level, and could EASILY spend 10 skill points to become trained in all knowledge skills, granting you another 5% chance in actually being able to succeed at them.
necromental: what would constitute a fix for called sneak attack? is the problem the negative modifier for the called shot? Should a Rogue have an intrinsic ability for improved called shot as well as sneak attack damage?
i don't use called shots, it's a grammar mistake. it should be: "IN ADDITION, i would remove concealment as hampering condition for sneaks ('cause "dark alley"), and CALL the sneak attack fixed"
1) I wouldn't do that, rogues are lacking a bit in the damage department but they actually do fine when they can SA. It's too big of a step, making some rogue talents better can go a long way to fix the class. A limited resource pool that allows rogues some more versatility would be better in my opinion.
2) A bit too much and simple for my tastes.
3) That would be ok, since it would be a single attack.
I would :
A - overhaul and add to rogue talents to make them a bit more impressive, worth a feat or slightly better. I'd attach requirements to some much more like rage powers rather than a simple division in 'normal' and 'advanced' which gives a bit more leeway to make the talents more powerful at higher levels.
B - Add a pool based on the rogues intelligence or charisma modifier + 1/2 lvl to reroll a skill check, get a dodge or save bonus. A pool based on luck or guile, some talents can add more uses.
What's funny is that the dice of sneak attack are so high because they don't hit as often. I do like number three a lot.
Much better than the sap master feat line
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rogue talents need to be cooler. that is a given, even if no other changes take place.
and i like sneak attack and strike talents, and am curious how to work with these things to give the rogue more tools.
for example, one concept i have been thinking about with strike talents is to have them serve two functions.
1) add effects to a sneak attack
2) add avenues to a sneak attack
they certainly already accomplish the former, and i'm wondering how there could be a way for the latter to happen as part of the rogue package before additional investment is considered.
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Orich Starkhart,
that is essentially what the OP is proposing, but at full iterative speed.
also, i really like the Guile Rogue, as both of the abilities (Guile Pool and Ambush) come into play frequently and it's really fun. my only complaint is that the Guile Rogue is best for only certain builds, who focus on Dexterity and Charisma based skills and tactics (Stealth and Bluff especially) - which is totally awesome(!) if a little narrow. the best part about Rogue Glory is the new rogue talents the book offers, that accomplish the latter goal i outlined above (avenues to sneak attack).
i just wish it'd didn't have to 'cost' a talent to give sneak attack more play. it should be built-in, in my view.
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Tormsskull,
when i consider rogue changes, i also consider ninja changes. the ninja, having access to the ki pool, actually does a lot towards making sneak attack a more viable combat tool.
i'd like to maintain their differences (rogue is extraordinary, ninja is supernatural) without one falling behind the other.
As GM I allow the rogue to pull one card from the crit hit deck per 2 dice of snk damage and choose the best one (max 3 cards)
This has made rogue a much more attractive option to players,and since sneak attack is a form of crit it only makes sense.
Larkspire, is that in place of sneak attack damage or in addition to it? Is it only when they crit or any time they land a sneak attack?
It's in addition to the sneak damage,only it's not doubled or tripled except with an actual crit roll.It happens every time sneak damage is dealt..so it generates alot of bleed and ability damage.
If it is a critical sneak,only the base damage is multiplied.