A bunch of (un) funny jokes about inserting magical items into one's self came to mind, but I'm actually not that bothered. As long as I feel competent, I dont really feel the need for more.
There will always be shinies. You can only choose to have less, or more.
Actually I always make use of the rules for implanting Ioun stones into your body. Its much safer to have them implanted then floating around your head and 100% less likely to tip off savvy opponents.
Honestly, I lost a lot of "enchantment" with special items when I realized they are either limited OR can easily be swapped out. My curent char has 3 different magical gloves that he can swap out when needed (reconnaissance, shadow falconer, spellstrike). A cloak of resistance can easily be swapped out for no penalty, same for statbooster items (except the headband of intelligence). Rings can be more complicated. I carry a small grab-bag, but that's for out of combat stuff. In combat, most of the special items just never feel useful, or just feel too situational(to me anyway).
But yeah, I'm not really a loot-aholic, I'm a crafter. I like to create my own weird items. But generally the stick to out of combat applications.
i try to make my attitude toward wealth a roleplaying decision... i'm playing a tiefling murderhobo in a campaign right now (he 'only feels truly alive' while engaged in life-or-death combat, and never passes up a good fight)- all of his wealth goes into items to increase damage and to increase his survivability (in that order); not long ago i had a fighter/monk who was an earnest professional and he focused his spending on the big 6 but with about 20% invested in utility items (bags of holding, magical and mundane problem solving gear, and even valuable scrolls for the party casters to use), plus he always kept some liquid assets available 'just in case': a while ago i had a pally who would keep certain (beneficial) loot from his adventures (partly to become more poerful/better able to aid others, and partly as sort of a trophy) but usually turned down rewards and would regularly make donations to temples and even give away money/food to others.
magic item obsession isn't necessarily a bad thing... just make sure its based on the character's history/motivations, not your own.
I've found myself loathing gear for different reasons. My group came upon a very large windfall in terms of gp but my character died. They looted his body which was fine. However, I haven't seen any of that in my new character. Zero. When I brought it up I was called entitled. It was almost enough to make me leave the group.
(or make sure there's an in-game reason why your character feels the same way you do...)
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magic item obsession isn't necessarily a bad thing... just make sure its based on the character's history/motivations, not your own.
Yeah, I have trouble with this. I don't like to play treasure-hungry characters, but I like treasure. Because of my inclination for item shopping, my druid ended up as the group "treasurer." I hand-waved it as a result of her childhood in a small trading caravan but it still felt a little off to me. However none of the other players were interested in the job and the rest of the party and DM felt I was the least likely character to run off with the loot or spend it all on ale and whores.
My next character is probably going to look a bit like nate lange's fighter/monk in terms of only caring about wealth in so far as it improves combat ability.
I have played a bard with a taste for bling, though, and that was a fun change of pace - magical jewelry, high-fashion elf-made mithral chain shirt, and eventually a Robe of the Resplendent Thespian.
I find it interesting to allow players to create their own magic items, and then see what they come up with. So, mostly, they end up selling a lot of stuff simply because they don't need it.
Try playing a monk sometime. You don't need armor. You don't need weapons (assuming you play him the way I have been). You end up with a character with very little stuff. One of the first things I got was a Handy Haversack just so I could keep the light load. I have collected lots of gold over time, and helped out other players over time, like the Inquisitor build one of his guns. I figured I didn't need that extra 5000gp so I gave it to him.
I think the other way would be a Kensai Bladebound Magus. No armor and you get your magic sword at 3rd level.
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I haven't played a high-level monk, but I've heard that despite appearances they're at least as loot-dependent as other classes. They don't need weapons or armour, but they still need an Amulet of Mighty Fists in order to keep up with the attack bonuses of other melee characters. Protective items are still necessary because while the monk AC bonus provides roughly as much protection as an armour enhancement bonus would, it doesn't cover the AC bonus a character receives from Rings of Protection, Amulets of Natural Armour, etc. Monks are a MAD class, so they have at least as much use for stat-boosting items. And then you have miscellaneous goodies like Boots of Haste.
Plus if you like items it's not always fun to miss out on that experience even if your character shouldn't need or value them.
If you're interested in an aesthetic character, I'd try a variant like this that gives an aesthetic character almost the same mechanical resources of a geared up character, and gives you the same metagame experience of shopping for magic abilities, but removes the actual items from your character.
Do you take it all, sell off what you won't use (90% of it) and buy the things you really want? You're not a roleplayer because heroes don't go to Magic-Mart and buy their upgrades. Do you make use of the items you fought for, and won? You're not optimized, and hurt the party's DPR, and the healer won't heal you because the extra rounds of combat are your fault. Or the DM can tweak the loot drops to ensure that things the players will like and will use are included in the treasures. This also gets criticized as not being "realistic" because the group of greataxe-wielding gnolls would not have a Elven Curved Blade in their treasures (sorry dude; it's sell and Magic-Mart for you!).
Couple more options there.
1) One or more PCs can take crafting feats, and the GM can include a higher portion of liquid assets (or fun magic components!) in the treasure to be used for crafting the specific items PCs want.
2) Give PCs access to a few friendly NPCs capable of crafting for them. Weapons are the most important, I think, since they're both core equipment and more personal than Rings of Protection, Belts of Strength, Staves, etc.
3) Use weapon groups, a variant rule from 3.5E Unearthed Arcana which allows a character to apply weapon-specific feats to any weapons of that group. It won't help characters with specialty weapons like whips or the elven curve blade, but a character who specializes in axes can switch between handaxes, greataxes, and battleaxes more easily based on the loot they find.
4) You can use a houserule that I think originated with 4E whereby some ritual can be used to transfer enchantments from one item to another. So if the players find a +2 Flaming Greataxe with the gnolls, they can transfer it to a Masterwork Curve Blade to get a +2 Flaming Curve Blade. Or if a party preferring light armour finds a suit of +3 Fortification Full Plate they can turn it into a +3 Fortification Chain Shirt. "Reforging" is a pretty thematic concept that could be used for this process.
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I have never been a real fan of the WBL guidelines or the crafting rules. Perhaps it's just my age showing, a tendancy to default to the way things were done back in the "good old days" but in most of the games I run, you can't just sell off treasure anywhere, and when you can sell it off, you are going to get a much smaller percentage of what it is worth.
Characters have to make do with what they find, think of interesting ways to make the most of their resources. I often get the feeling that the game my friends and I play is the same game as most posters on these boards play in name only. Crafting? Who has time for such nonsense? My players have been warned that these feats will prove mostly ineffective since the chance of them having enough downtime to make anything more than a couple scrolls or potions is slim to none.
Sure I will grumble a bit that my level 6 wizard has only a +1 dagger and a wand of true strike for magic items. But I actually like the game this way, and obviously so do the other people I play with. (4 of us each run our own games, I'm involved in 2 right now) We have all played more standard WBL games, but something about a magic shop in every village has always kind of broken my suspension of disbelief, and made the game feel cheap.
It comes down to everyone having their own style of game, and what is right for me isn't right for everyone. Loot is one of the most variable things from table to table. The amount of it, the way it is distributed, and whagt can be done with it. I loved CRAZY LOOTZ types of games when I was 13. I won't badmouth it because it was kinda fun back then, but I would never want to play the kinds of adventures I played back then anymore.
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[soapbox rant]
It is actually my biggest problem with what I feel is almost entirely a great system.
Just selling everything you find and buying that perfect thingamabob at the Magic-Mart, has become the norm in most of the games I see.
First, it eliminates any real point to the loot placement. If you are just going to sell everything, why should I (as GM) make any effort to place interesting/applicable stuff. Just you find X value of gold pieces and it weighs Y pounds. Might as well do it just like PFS does even in a home game. By adventures end you found a total of Z.
Our current campaign, we have advanced 2 levels and I think the whole group of 5 players have found a grand total of 3 magic items that are just barely worth keeping. Everything else is just piled in one of the 5 bags of holding until the next big clearance sale.
Second (and more importantly), it effectively destroys most sense of the magical wonderment of magic items. Meh, it's just a +3 spear. They're all over the place at this level and I don't use spears. Sell it. This is supposedly an item so powerful that only a powerful adventurer or kingdom prince will have it. But the players don't even care about it. Just chuck it in the bag of holding until the next time we make it to a decent sized city to have a sale.
That is probably the only change since the early versions of DnD that I don't like. You could have been a 13th level fighter. One of the most powerful individuals in the land. But you had very few permanent magic items. Especially very few that were all that powerful. So you kept anything you found because it was and you might need it.
My fighter might be the best swordsman in the land but when the Gigmarel shows up after a couple rounds of combat I figure out that my sword doesn't do any real lasting harm to him. So I try switching to Felar's Corrosive Spike (+2 dagger that does d6 acid damage) in order to survive. That magic item was special and unique, none of us would have even considered 'meh sell it' except in the most dire of need for cash.
I really wish the rule books had not been written such that everyone thinks the whole table of 'standard' magic items is necessary for every adventurer to have. They aren't. The wizard's headband of intellect and the targets cloak of resistance effectively cancel each other out. Neither is necessary. Most of the big 6 that every one screams you 'must' have are canceling bonus if both sides have them.
The only real change is DR and incorporeal. But a wand of versatile weapon and/or magic weapon, maybe some adamantine arrows, as well as tactics get around that problem pretty easily. Plus I feel that creatures with DR and ghosts are supposed to be dangerous opponents that one should be careful when facing.
[/soapbox rant]
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(Little rant of my own)
I'll pronounce myself in favor of "more stuff" in general. While I dont mind games with low loot (dragon age RPG, dungeon world), I enjoy a game where I have more choices to make for my character (in this case equipement-wise)(most low-wealth systems I've seen give very limited character customization). The system is built with that in mind, and you know what? I enjoy having stuff. I like I dont like the idea of existing "entirely at the whim of the GM", it isnt enjoyable. A good GM can make a low wealth pathfinder work, but the system isnt made for it (unlike dungeon world lets say) so it gets cumbersome, and it's why I dont WANT to play a low-wealth, or E6/E8 game in pathfinder. Other systems do it better.
As for all the people clamoring for "special and unique" items, that's all in the eye of the beholder. You see felar's corrosive spike, I see a +2 corrosive dagger. You see a +3 spear, I see a spear of lords (or whatever you want to call it). The whole "liquidate items" thing can be abstracted if done intelligently as well. Return the "spear of lords" to the king? Well he'll hire a wizard for you to be able to craft X gold of items. Or he'll let you pick something from his armory, etc. A lot of folks seem to take the easy way out of (acquire item-sell item-craft better item) when such cycles can be abstracted into something more fitting. (sorry for focusing on your examples kydeem, you're just the last post I read)
Some people complain so much about certain aspects that are built into the game I wonder, why do you stay? There are SOOO many other well thought out systems out there, that allow exactly that, without the hastle that it takes to change the fundamental system. I currently play a pathfinder game (high-magic, stuff everywhere, a lot of messing around) and a dragon age RPG game (low-magic, very few items, a LOT grittier), and both are fun for different reasons. I get the feeling some people feel forced to stick with pathfinder or something, when there are systems that address exactly their complaints.
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... (sorry for focusing on your examples kydeem, you're just the last post I read) ...
I am very much not offended. I've had similar discussions with multiple people.
... (most low-wealth systems I've seen give very limited character customization) ...
I feel PF still has a heck of a lot of customization potential without the plentitude of magic items. Is some way it might have more since almost everyone wouldn't have the 'big six' items.
... The system is built with that in mind ... but the system isnt made for it [low magic items] ...
From the little bit of experimenting I've been able to do, the system actually works out just fine without them. As I said, most of the 'big six' bonuses just cancel each other out.
... and you know what? I enjoy having stuff ...
Actually, I can entirely understand this. And oftentimes I agree with it. But I often see that I and other people really don't enjoy having their 'stuff' because it becomes just standard gear. At 9th level they no longer enjoy their +2 sword because it has become even less special than the breastplate they had at 2nd level.
... I like I dont like the idea of existing "entirely at the whim of the GM", it isnt enjoyable. ...
I sorta understand this, but sorta not. I kinda think you are always "at the whim of the GM" and if you can't trust your GM, maybe you should have a different GM.
... As for all the people clamoring for "special and unique" items, that's all in the eye of the beholder. You see felar's corrosive spike, I see a +2 corrosive dagger. You see a +3 spear, I see a spear of lords (or whatever you want to call it). The whole "liquidate items" thing can be abstracted if done intelligently as well. Return the "spear of lords" to the king? Well he'll hire a wizard for you to be able to craft X gold of items. Or he'll let you pick something from his armory, etc. A lot of folks seem to take the easy way out of (acquire item-sell item-craft better item) when such cycles can be abstracted into something more fitting. ...
Well it is not entirely in the 'eye of the beholder'. If the group has 23 of +2 or +3 items in the bags of holding. Not a one of which they are even considering keeping and/or using because they can just sell them for to get keen and icy burst added to their scimitar (or whatever). It takes a very special kind of eye to see any of them as in any way special or unique.
You say it "can be abstracted if done intelligently as well." Well then neither I nor any GM I know as been able to figure out how to do it intelligently or well in the baseline PF system. When I as GM try to describe a unique magic item, the players eyes just glaze over as they wait for me to stop talking then they ask how much they can get for it. If someone where to suggest "Return the "spear of lords" to the king? Well he'll hire a wizard for you to be able to craft X gold of items. Or he'll let you pick something from his armory, etc." the immediate response is "why?" We'll just sell it and pick something.I have met a couple of players that will cooperate with attempts to "cycles can be abstracted into something more fitting." but even then most are just playing along and waiting for you to finish so they can pick their item.
... Other systems do it [low magic items] better ... Some people complain so much about certain aspects that are built into the game I wonder, why do you stay? There are SOOO many other well thought out systems out there, that allow exactly that, without the hastle that it takes to change the fundamental system. I currently play a pathfinder game (high-magic, stuff everywhere, a lot of messing around) and a dragon age RPG game (low-magic, very few items, a LOT grittier), and both are fun for different reasons. I get the feeling some people feel forced to stick with pathfinder or something, when there are systems that address exactly their complaints.
There are several huge reasons I stick with PF.
1) The overabundance of magic items is literally one of only 2 system issues with which I am relatively unsatisfied. (The other is vancian spell casting, which has been present since the beginning. I much prefer the current psionic system from Dreamscarred Press. But that is a totally separate subject.) The whole rest of the system is in my opinion extremely well done. There is huge amount of customization, choice, and material available. Most of the time there is a specific rule for whatever the player or GM wants to try. If there isn't, it is relatively easy to compare to another rule and decide how to handle it. Overall, I feel it is an excellent system.2) I am perfectly aware this is my own personal preference. Of our current 5-7 person group, only 1 other person is interested in trying any kind of low magic item campaign in this or any other system.
3) Player base. Even if I find Huscergumits, some 'perfect for me' game that addresses everything I want to do exactly the way I want to do it, I will probably be sitting in my living room reading the books by myself. Because find a fellow player for any other RPG is incredibly more difficult than finding a player for PF. I can go to PFS event and invite players I like. If that doesn't work, I can put a posting on the board at my local game shop or on the web and will get a lot of responses from people that have a decent idea of what to expect and whether or not they will like it. I can remember posting to find a group for the old Star Wars d6 system. iirc, I got about 1 response a month. Those would each get tired of waiting and drop out before the next response. The same thing happened with a couple other systems I tried.
4) As an individual I personally do not have the time, finances, or inclination to purchase, learn, organize, and participate in campaigns for multiple game systems. Even if I already had an available player base, I'm not sure I would add another game system. I already spend more of my time and money on PF than I probably should. I know there are people that have, learn, and cart around nearly everything possible for 5+ systems.
Great for them if they enjoy that. But that seems to be closer to a job than a relaxing past time or hobby to me.
I understand your point kydeem. I LOVE the customization of pathfinder, and I dont like limiting my choices (life is too short to limit chracter choices).
I've yet to come across some of your situations (IE 20 +X weapons) but it must be problematic. THen again, it doesnt help that your fellow players have certain expectations (IE, you can sell magical items) of the game, which color their reactions. I get the impression that the whole 3.X cycle (3.0 to pathfinder) might have been too effective in setting up certain habits in players. I think there are ways to abstract this, or do this better, but that's a story building thing, and it might be your fellow players are too "set in their ways" as it were to enjoy such attempts.
For one, something I am attempting in my first game as GM is to do away with a lot of the loot by setting; the characters are doing their military service, so they get equipped by their superiors. Everything else, they can craft (if the want; there's a dwarven fighter-baker I'm allowing to use dwarven battle bread as hammers), request to have crafted or OCCASIONALLY find on enemies (IE, only special enemies/bosses have special items).
As for the "big six" I have been thinking of ways to reduce their impact. Eliminating them requires either WBL adjustment or CR adjustment. I think I'll experiment with treating the wondrous items (cloak, amulet, ROP) as entirely slotless. Since I'm "giving" them the items, I'll able to be sure they have the minimum, and leave them some wiggle roomwith what money is left (I estimate about 1/4 of WBL, though I'll probably be more flexible). (I've just realised I'm a slightly controlling GM -type)
As for finding players for a system you like, well, that's simple: play through the web. The most reliable place I know is app.roll20.com. It allowed me to start playing despite frequent travel, an irregular schedule & various other problems. I've played with folks from around the world (though mostly anglo countries). Yes, it's not quite the same as playing around a table, but it's still my only way to be able to play.
As a note:
There are currently about a dozen games of various star wars RPGs looking for players (edge of the empire mostly though), so it might be worth checking out.
There are also a ton of good RPGs that cost very little (dungeon world costs 10 bucks, is super quick to set up, and quite fun, if limited).
... I've yet to come across some of your situations (IE 20 +X weapons) but it must be problematic. ...
According to the current GM, he has only been giving us what is presented in the AP. We are currently about level 12.
... do away with a lot of the loot by setting; the characters are doing their military service, so they get equipped by their superiors. Everything else, they can craft (if the want; there's a dwarven fighter-baker I'm allowing to use dwarven battle bread as hammers), request to have crafted or OCCASIONALLY find on enemies (IE, only special enemies/bosses have special items). ...
I would like that. I'm not sure that most of my group would be willing to give it a try. As I said, many have formed this opinion that PF makes it necessary to have certain items which requires being able to easily sell lots of other items. I disagree with that, but it is a pretty pervasive opinion.
... As for the "big six" I have been thinking of ways to reduce their impact. Eliminating them requires either WBL adjustment or CR adjustment. ...
Contrary to the usual opinions. I don't think it requires nearly as much adjustment as most people do.
WBL: At higher levels impose certain costs that are likely to occur if it was a more real world situation. In a real feudal era style culture, you would have a tax man charge them more for using the road just because he thought they could afford it. Chartering a fast boat to go exactly where and when you want should be horribly expensive. Getting military grade equipment should require a lot of bribes and penalties. If the crown representative stops by for a visit they have to entertain him in the manner in which he expects, not necessarily what they have in the budget. Etc...
CR: As I said, most of the things are canceled out by the other side not having them. You not having a cloak of resistance is canceled out by the enemy caster not having a headband of intellect. The only time you have to be careful is for the really weird creatures that rarely carry items anyway. Summoned demons for example will still have most of their same magical abilities and defenses. But I am perfectly OK with things like powerful outsiders being more dangerous.
... As for finding players for a system you like, well, that's simple: play through the web. The most reliable place I know is app.roll20.com. It allowed me to start playing despite frequent travel, an irregular schedule & various other problems. I've played with folks from around the world (though mostly anglo countries). Yes, it's not quite the same as playing around a table, but it's still my only way to be able to play.
As a note:
There are currently about a dozen games of various star wars RPGs looking for players (edge of the empire mostly though), so it might be worth checking out. ...
I continue to consider this approach. But honestly a large part of the reason I do RPG's at all is to get my hermit butt out of the house and actually meet people face to face. I already find it entirely too easy to sit in front of my computer for hours on end. But yes, that is me and my issue.
... There are also a ton of good RPGs that cost very little (dungeon world costs 10 bucks, is super quick to set up, and quite fun, if limited).
I haven't really looked in while but prior to restarting gaming about 15 years ago, I looked into a bunch of them. None of the cheap ones had the complexity to hold my interest for any real length of time even if I could find others wanting to play.
Well, nice to see we agree on some thing Kydeem. I will be trying my damnedest so that they arent convinced items can be simply "sold"; they're going to have to find somebody who wants it first (might be hard to sell a drow torture whip in a dwarven city for example).
Hopefully you find some gaming that pleases you more; I can understand not wanting to be a hermit. TO you, gaming is both social & gaming; for me, it's gaming that's incidentaly social. I have not really much options; I will be playing at a table for my first campaign, but it wont be able to last more than a few months because of my own constraints. As for other systems... yeah they all lack complexity because they dont have the "weight" of D&D/pathfinder does. At 10 bucks, you dont get that much.
Also, when I talk about CR adjustments, I'm talking about monsters. NPC CR adjustement is, as you indicated, negligible (since most have virtually no items anyway). I have RARELY faced NPCs. 90% of what I have faced up til now are full on monstrous, and thus have NO items. In fact, most NPCs my GMs have thrown at me relied on templates & weirdness to be strong. So CR adjustment is critical for those. And losing items is NOT a mere CR-2, as the guidelines say. The numbers dont match up.
Edit: I will also NEVER run an AP. That is not why I want to GM, and I dont want to feel constrained by it.
... Hopefully you find some gaming that pleases you more ...
Not really necessary to find something new. I am about 98% happy with PF. I would be astonished if I were to find a system fitting my preferences better than that.
The OP asked how I felt about the loot system, so I answered him. Doesn't mean I am unhappy with the system as a whole.
Like I said, it is the only thing I can think of in all the changes since the D&D Beginner's set that I don't like. The game is almost unrecognizable to those of us that compare to that start. And I still think almost everything else is a vast improvement.
... Edit: I will also NEVER run an AP. That is not why I want to GM, and I dont want to feel constrained by it.
I can understand that attitude. I love it when a GM makes a homebrew world and campaign. But I personally no longer seem to have the time, energy, or dedication for that level of commitment when I am GM. I've been trying to build a world/campaign in my spare time for a couple of years now. I just never seem to make enough progress to feel it is ready to roll out as a campaign.
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williamoak wrote:
... I've yet to come across some of your situations (IE 20 +X weapons) but it must be problematic. ...
According to the current GM, he has only been giving us what is presented in the AP. We are currently about level 12.
I am in an AP atm where the enemies in one area all came with wands of sound burst. We kept killing the bad guys and accumulated so many of the wands on my inquisitor that the GM started saying they (the bad guys) broke the wands as the died. I think I have about 12 of them. So I completely understand the that situation.
Course, this particular AP is so magic item poor for the 1st 2 1/2 books that it's silly.
... Edit: I will also NEVER run an AP. That is not why I want to GM, and I dont want to feel constrained by it.I can understand that attitude. I love it when a GM makes a homebrew world and campaign. But I personally no longer seem to have the time, energy, or dedication for that level of commitment when I am GM. I've been trying to build a world/campaign in my spare time for a couple of years now. I just never seem to make enough progress to feel it is ready to roll out as a campaign.
Well, good luck to you on your own campaign ideas. I'll admit my own stuff is kinda... lazy. I've written 4-5 pages on the central setting (a dwarf city), everything else is considered to be in "genericland", land of all adventure, where everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) can happen. I'm an improv type. My preparation will be more along the lines of "making stuff up 1-2 weeks in advance".
As for the OP (sorry for the derail), I will try to make my players lust even more for items than yourself. MUAHAHAHAHA.
I would rather PF have something like 4e's Inherent Bonuses, so that treasure became a perk, rather than a requirement. I would have no problems whatsoever playing in a game with limited items and money ... I would probably prefer it.
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Edit: I will also NEVER run an AP. That is not why I want to GM, and I dont want to feel constrained by it.
So don't be constrained by it. You can change whatever you like.
I would rather PF have something like 4e's Inherent Bonuses, so that treasure became a perk, rather than a requirement.
I did something like this in my own games - the "big six" items are gone and replaced by scaling bonuses at each level. Leaving the item slots open for more interesting items.
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I would rather PF have something like 4e's Inherent Bonuses, so that treasure became a perk, rather than a requirement. I would have no problems whatsoever playing in a game with limited items and money ... I would probably prefer it.
I'd rather see accuracy bounded then get back on treadmill design.
I would rather PF have something like 4e's Inherent Bonuses, so that treasure became a perk, rather than a requirement. I would have no problems whatsoever playing in a game with limited items and money ... I would probably prefer it.I'd rather see accuracy bounded then get back on treadmill design.
Can I get a tongues over here?
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I would rather PF have something like 4e's Inherent Bonuses, so that treasure became a perk, rather than a requirement. I would have no problems whatsoever playing in a game with limited items and money ... I would probably prefer it.I'd rather see accuracy bounded then get back on treadmill design.
Hubbahubba-wha?
I don’t care for the "Christmas tree' but I love cool unique magic items. I love for my PC to be able to say "I wield the Ring of Gaxx' and have others quail in fear.
Am I the only one who feels obsessive about acquiring loot? Or spending it?
Yup. You're it. The only one. Finally we found a topic that can be answered easily!
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Kydeem de'Morcaine, I think your complaints are partly the result of playing an AP. The authors of an AP simply can't know what the composition of a party is, so the loot isn't placed with the party's needs in mind. Secondly, the authors can't monitor the players' enjoyment of the loot in play and adjust accordingly.
You can also reduce the number of found magic items without simply turning them into gold value. Trade goods, art objects, and magical components keep things interesting. Instead of finding two +2 weapons, a +1 suit of armour, and a +2 ring of protection, you can find one +2 weapon, the +2 ring of protection, a vial of dragon's blood (500gp), two pounds of adamantine ingots (600gp), three finely made silk dresses (300gp), and a silver and turquoise necklace (100gp).
Most players will probably still convert these to gold, but the party's face might keep some of the finery to smooth interactions with the upper-class, and a crafter might use the dragon's blood when adding the flaming property to the fighter's scimitar. And even if they do sell it all, trading with trade goods breaks immersion less than turning in the +3 spear to a magic-mart.
For a long time, one of my players was so obsessed with getting the largest share of loot, he would actually anger and alienate the other players, by having his character barter, beg, trick, bother, and then finally steal from them when those didn't work. He would dash ahead into the next chamber, or dangerous areas, to see what he could grab before everybody else, often inciting creatures/guards/allies/whoever into violence unnecessarily or before the rest of the party was ready to fight. Characters got hurt and close to killed by this behavior. He did this with every character. Finally, for this and other reasons, we could not play with him anymore.
We play with him again now, as he has finally matured out of this bad behavior and everybody can get along pretty well now.
Another player was so hung up on his character having power and gold that he would cheat to get both. That I cannot understand at all. I mean, I get why people want to advance their characters and why they want their characters to get good stuff so they can survive the next adventure. But I don't understand anybody who so prizes imaginary power and imaginary gold that he is willing to cheat his friends and compromise his integrity to get it.
It's not real.
No. I'M The Only One.
You are not alone! Just pay your dues and join the Golarion Union of Murderhoboes for the Betterment of Others!
Sincerely yours,
~Jaspar "Shank Him Louis" Kahrdboordebachs~
your local GUMBO representative
Kydeem de'Morcaine, I think your complaints are partly the result of playing an AP. The authors of an AP simply can't know what the composition of a party is, so the loot isn't placed with the party's needs in mind. Secondly, the authors can't monitor the players' enjoyment of the loot in play and adjust accordingly.
You can also reduce the number of found magic items without simply turning them into gold value. Trade goods, art objects, and magical components keep things interesting. Instead of finding two +2 weapons, a +1 suit of armour, and a +2 ring of protection, you can find one +2 weapon, the +2 ring of protection, a vial of dragon's blood (500gp), two pounds of adamantine ingots (600gp), three finely made silk dresses (300gp), and a silver and turquoise necklace (100gp).
Most players will probably still convert these to gold, but the party's face might keep some of the finery to smooth interactions with the upper-class, and a crafter might use the dragon's blood when adding the flaming property to the fighter's scimitar. And even if they do sell it all, trading with trade goods breaks immersion less than turning in the +3 spear to a magic-mart.
To a certain extent I agree with you. AP's are not geared specifically to the particular party running through it. However, most of the gear we find is that being used by the opposition encountered. So it is at least fairly appropriate for that opposition.
And yes, the GM could change things he knows we won't use into something else of the same approximate value. That would probably be a bit more interesting. Then the opposition would be a bit weaker because of little gear. But that can be worked around. I agree that would break immersion less. I will try to keep it in mind when I am GM for the group.However, most people will say that what is in a Golarian based AP is the standard around which the system is designed. In other words the system means "You are supposed to sell Z value of loot to get all these items of X capabilities because it is needed to survive."
So again, there is nothing special about a +3 weapon because everyone at level 10+ will have 1 or even 2 of them. It is just the standard gear of that level of PC.
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Kydeem de'Morcaine, good points.
1) NPCs do tend to be tricky treasure sources because what the NPC finds useful isn't always what the PCs find useful.
2) A +3 sword might not feel exciting to a 10th level PC, but a 10th level PC is practically a figure of legend themselves. They're billionaires. Purchases they think nothing of would be extravagances to most of the population. Most of the rest of the world will consider their spare +3 sword a big deal - and they might have a hard time finding a buyer who can afford it, encouraging trading in major items to important people for other wealth or favours.