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Okay, so here's the thing. I've been looking for a build that I can pull off that doesn't violate any rules or needs outside support books to do. The build; up to level 20; is this:
1 level Fighter
3 levels Wizard
3 levels Cleric
2 levels Mystic Theuge
10 levels Eldritch Knight
1 level Mystic Theuge
It pans out; at least in my mind; into the char being able to cast as a level 15 Wizard and Cleric, with the ability to take feats that require you to be a level 11 Fighter to take.
I justify it by combining EldK. with Mystic. For the EldK. from level 2 through 10 you gain spells as if you had gained in your arcane spell caster class. Mystic, due to it's abilities, is technically an arcane and divine spell casting class. So when I gain my levels in EldK. I choose Mystic as the class I want to gain my new spell casting abilities from. Because Mystic's spell casting abilities raise both divine and arcane at the same time I gain both. So now I've just gained; at level 10; 9 levels of both Wizard and Cleric casting abilities. So now I cast as a level 14 Wizard and Cleric. Finish the 20 level build with an additional level of Mystic Theuge to maximize my spell casting abilities.
What timebomb said, MT is not a casting class in itself it just adds to them. It is also MAD and would suck till lvl 17 or so...
Mystic Theurge:
Since EldK is not granting you Mystic Theurge levels you do not gain spell casting in cleric and wizard. Or there is the fact that you don't have specific Mystic Theurge spell casting abilities to add to, you have cleric and wizard abilities.I would give it a "no"
Technically Mystic Theurge isn't giving you new levels of Wizard or Cleric either. They are both linking something together. I see it like a synergy bonus to your skills.
Mystic Theurge doesn't have its own spell progression - it simply advances pre-existing arcane and divine spell progressions. You have to pick a class with an associated list of arcane spells to advance with Eldritch Knight.
The build you propose would end at level 20 with the following:
+15 BAB
+12 Base Fortitude
+4 Base Reflex (ouch)
+11 Base Will
15th level arcane spellcasting (7th level wizard spells)
6th level divine spellcasting (3rd level cleric spells)
11d10 plus 3d8 plus 6d6 hit dice (99 base hit points on average)
Three favored class boosts (either Wizard or Cleric)
40 base skill points (bare minimum) with fighter, wizard, and cleric skill affinities
4 bonus combat feats
Scribe Scroll
2d6 channel energy
2 domains (base domain powers only)
arcane bond
1 arcane school (base school powers only)
Spell critical
It's weak but versatile, it's never going to reach the full potential of just going straight wizard or straight cleric, but it's not suppose to. It's set up to give you a char that can do ALOT of things but not really master anything. It does give you access to some of your highest level spells.
The Mystic Theurge's spells per day/spell known is linked directly to your arcane and divine classes that allow you to take it in the first place.
I guess a better question would be what is the definition of a spell casting class?
In my opinion; it's any class that gives you the ability to cast spells. So technically, a Rogue can turn into a casting class; though a very very limited one, based off of it's ability to cast low level spells with the correct tricks.
The other thing that makes me think that this would work is because once you've maxed out Theurge you can always go back and gain more levels in your previous classes. However there is nothing that states where you should pick back up your spell gaining in the previous classes. Is it at the level you left off at with the class initially; esentually breaking the classes limitation on spells per day and spells known at the lower levels, or where your modified caster level is now set.
While I understand that Theurge doesn't have it's own area for spells known and spells per day it is still at it's core granting you the ability to cast spells beyond what any feat could let you achieve through level gain. So I would still classify it as a casting class granting you spells, both arcane and divine, per day and spells known.
I think it needs to be explored more by the creators. Like I said, there is no clear cut outline of what's considered a casting class and what's not considered a casting class and in essense it's not my Wizard class granting me ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells it's my Theurge levels. Which while linked to my Wizard class it isn't my Wizard class.
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Archmic, nobody but you is confused about what "casting class" means. There's no need for developer clarification. Let it go.
mystic theurge does not have spells per day, spells known or a spell progression.. it is not a caster class. Eldritch knight can only enhance your arcane spellcasting levels with an actual progression. Prc do not usually give you an actual progression but they give you benefits 'as if' you advanced in that or that class.
I challenge you... defy the class. It gains spells per day it is its OWN spell casting class.
This is a link to the Mystic Theurge class. It gains spells per day, it simply ADDS it's levels to those of the char's previous spells per day.
So my combination works!
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.html#_myst ic-theurge
It pulls it's spells from the Sorceror and Wizard spell list. Which makes more sense and is easier than rewriting the whole spell list and creating a spells per day and a spells known list that fluctuates, due to the fact that it would have to be reprinted every time a class that can meet the per-requisites for prestige class entry.
Here's the spells per day entry for those who don't want to open the link or just in case the link doesn't work.
Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.
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how do you explain that as his OWN spellcasting class.. ? there are better and at least raw legal ways to cheese the MT but this aint one of them
how do you explain that as his OWN spellcasting class.. ? there are better and at least raw legal ways to cheese the MT but this aint one of them
Then give me, from paizo, a definition as to what a spell casting class is. As stated in the Mystic Theurge class, it gets it's own spells per day, but simply adds it to your previous classes existing spell level. If we were to go back to 3.5, there are a lot of classes that state that they use the same spell list as the sorceror and wizard.
This isn't me breaking the rules, it's finding a loop hole. If a definitive answer to is or isn't Mystic Theurge a spell casting class presented then the interpretation is left up to the DM. You can just as easily tell your player that he can't use this combination even though he suffers for a while and will NEVER; if you limit it to a total class level of 20; be as good as a straight Mystic Theurge or a straight Elderick Knight then that is your call as the DM. But as far as the guide lines are stated for class entry and the requirements for continued growth in your spell casting abilities. The Mystic Theurge into Knight combination is legal and works.
Think of it this way: MT gives your 'wizard-ness' more spells and your 'cleric-ness' more spells, but doesn't get its own spells. It makes the part of your character with 3 wizard levels very strong, but itself isn't providing those spells.
Edit: If commoner is a spellcasting class or not is left up to the DM. If you use Str or Wis for to-hit is left up to the DM. Everything is left up to the DM, that's how it works. As-written, Theurge is not a casting class and can definitely not have its casting advanced by prestige classes. No one else is confused by this.
Then give me, from paizo, a definition as to what a spell casting class is.
No. Not every single term has a strict, written definition. You know that. Don't be petulant, it doesn't improve your argument.
Mystic Theurge is not a spellcasting class. How many 3rd level spells does a level 7 Mystic Theurge have, from which list? Undefined. Ditto Eldritch Knight. They have class abilities that progress the casting you get from an actual casting class.
There are actual prestige classes written that would progress Mystic Theurge, in Complete Scoundrel; they progress "class abilities" from a previous class.
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Then give me, from paizo, a definition as to what a spell casting class is. As stated in the Mystic Theurge class, it gets it's own spells per day, but simply adds it to your previous classes existing spell level.
Not. That's what you wish. From the table:
+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
And from the text:
When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.
If you aren't agree, it's not a problem of paizo or others. The rules just don't go as you wish, because MT adds CL to previously belonged classes, not for their own. Else somewhere MT should say from wich list he should gains spells, and the rate of spells. It doesn't have it's own spell list progression, else you could take it even with a fighter.
If we were to go back to 3.5, there are a lot of classes that state that they use the same spell list as the sorceror and wizard.
1) this is not 3.5, this is Pathfinder
2) Even if, so? If a class state that they use the spell list from sorcerer/wizard, that's mean nothing. It need its own spell progression.This isn't me breaking the rules, it's finding a loop hole.
Funny, I call it "being a munchkin".
The Mystic Theurge into Knight combination is legal and works.
Curiously you're the only that think that. But let's say, just for sake of discussion, that you're right. Your build still never work:
At the indicated levels, an eldritch knight gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming an eldritch knight, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
Just arcane, not divine. So even if you're right, and anyway you're wrong, the EK adds ONLY to arcane spellcasting. It doesn't specifically add to any spellcasting class you belonged before. MT specifically add both divine and arcane, EK specifically add only to arcane. So, you're wrong twice: you don't want read the rules correctly because this is against what you want, and even forcing the rules as you like instead as what they said, you still can't accomplish what you wish.
It's not finding a loophole. It's being munchkin.
As written, in it's status block it gets it's own spells per day, it adds it's level to the other classes caster level to come up with a total casting level.
Granted, it's spells per day are dependent upon what your previous two classes are. However, that doesn't make it any less a spell casting class. It doesn't grant one spell, it gains spell slots, new spell levels and new spells.
Instead of staying locked in to the; it doesn't show a spells per day or a spells known chart. Look at it as more of a class upgrade to what ever arcane and divine class you had.
I'm sorry but I have to stick with what I said earlier. Unless paizo itself states that Mystic Theurge isn't a spell casting class you should be able to use the combination. Just because it isn't defined by it's own spell list or spell progression doesn't make it any less a spell casting class.
Push the boundaries of what you see a little bit guys.
Does it allow you to gain spells... yes.
Is most of the classes usefulness tied up in the ability to cast spells... yes.
Does it improve your ability with weapons and or armor... no.
Does it give you access to a lot of feats... no.
Does it give you access to a lot of skills... no.
Does it give you a lot of flexibility/options to do things that aren't based on spell availability... no.
Does it have a neat ability that isn't tied to spell casting... no.
If it's not a spell casting class... what is it?
Like I said, it's not my wizard class, see first post, that's giving me access to the EK class; it's my MT class.
Why do certain classes have their own spell lists? Because they can cast very specific/limited spells but where else can you find those spells? On another spell list from a class that casts similar spells. Some times a class will have a spell that it doesn't share. But I'm willing to bet that at least 95% if not 99% of their spells come from a core class spell list.
It adds it's spells per day and spells known based off of any one of your arcane spell casting classes. I can take the EK class and if I wanted to, I could use it to improve one class, like Wizard, by why when I have a combination that gives me more?
I've said it once and I'll say it again.
PROVE THAT IT ISN'T A SPELL CASTING CLASS!
Which every one of you has failed to do.
1st argument: EK doesn't grant you levels in MT.
Responce: Neither does MT give you levels in Wizard.
Conclusion: MT to EK still works.
2nd argument: MT has no Spells/day, spells known, or spell list and isn't a spell casting class.
Responce: Looked up the stat block. Stat block in class clearly states Spells per Day. MT also adds IT'S level to your CASTER level.
Conclusion: MT to EK still works. It has both a stat block area for spells per day and provides you with a caster level.
3rd argument: Eldritch knight can only enhance your arcane spellcasting levels with an actual progression.
Responce: Looked up EK and read the block; three times. "An eldritch knight gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting."
Conclusion: MT to EK still works. Does not specifically state that only the arcane side is enhanced. Does state that can only be used to enhance a class that allows you to cast arcane spells, and only to add spells per day, spells known, and caster level as if you gained a level in that class.
4th argument: MT is not a spell casting class.
Responce: I thought I cover this but I'm post one part from the MT spells per day block again to make sure that it is completely clear.
"This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has..."
Just in case it was still missed.
"-level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class..."
One more time so I don't have to argue it again...
"-other arcane spellcasting class..."
There; definitive PROOF! MT is a spell casting class, it is both Arcane AND Divine. As such, can be modified by EK and as stated up in argument 3 you can gain your divine spells through EK.
True; it juggles some things around and it's ability is dependent upon it's previous classes, but it IS an arcane and divine spell caster.
You can argue it all you want, but the proof is in the class.
Here's the spells per day entry for those who don't want to open the link or just in case the link doesn't work.
Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.
MT doesn't have its own casting ability, it increases your other classes' casting ability.
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Archmic, you've been proven wrong, in this thread, repeatedly. At this point, your argument is basically: That depends on what you definition of "is" is.
Your build doesn't work, and there's nothing further to discuss here.
MT doesn't have its own casting ability, it increases your other classes' casting ability.
Not true, if you were to again gain in wizard or sorceror what would the DM allow you to do? Continue from the next highest level of the two combined even though neither Wizard nor Sorceror says you can do that, and MT says you can only do that when you gain a level in MT.
So are you going to force some one to double up on caster levels because they took another class?
Answer: Not only no but heck no.
Simply because it starts out as depending on the previous class doesn't mean that it's not.
That's a lot like saying that an Arch-type isn't a casting class because it's modifying the base class.
Sounds ridiculous doesn't it?
That section states that you can't gain new spells per day by using itself or any class that you had BEFORE you took the class. So you can take 3 levels of Wizard, 3 levels of Cleric, 1 level of MT, and 5 levels of bard. If you took the bard levels after you entered the MT class then you can't then gain a level in MT and modify the bard.
Because the wording is very specific on this, your arguments that it doesn't has it's own set of progressions is irrelevant, because it clearly states BEFORE you gained the class. So you couldn't use it to modify itself anyways.
It is an arcane spell caster and it is a divine spell caster. Simply because; and I can't believe I'm saying this again; it doesn't have a predetermined chart, doesn't mean it's NOT one.
I'm going to stop here because I'm getting a head ache from repeating the same thing over and over again in different ways to prove it. See my previous post for the complete break down of ALL your arguments; this is to include the fact that it allows you to upgrade your previous class.
I really hope that you guys get a player who takes a prestige class that allows them to qualify for another class but has an undefined variable and tell them that they can't do it. Because when they start pouring through the books like some one possessed. You'll know that the next time you misstep on a single rule, you trip over a single word, or you mess up a single thing they will be there to sharp shoot you. Because if you do it once, you better keep doing the same thing because if you don't... you are then cheating the player.
That's why there are rules, and that's why I continually asked for an official rule; after proving that the class is what it is; that stated the class wasn't a spell casting class.
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The game rules are guidelines and absolutely open to interpretation. You're right, in a way, in your head the thing works the way you think it does, and that's great. It sounds like you're the only one here who is open to that interpretation, so why continue to argue?
The game rules are guidelines and absolutely open to interpretation. You're right, in a way, in your head the thing works the way you think it does, and that's great. It sounds like you're the only one here who is open to that interpretation, so why continue to argue?
Because their arguments have holes in them that are too big to miss? lol.
If they really want to continue to say that it doesn't work that way I'm pretty sure that we can all agree that EK and MT work the same way for gaining spells. And there's actually a discussion stating that the person writing the classes and what not missed a word.
If you look at EK's spells per day it says "An eldritch knight gains new spells per day," and just like the discussion says; just because they glossed over a few words; which is understandable when writing a several hundred page book; doesn't mean that it's NOT the way it works.
If we can agree that; and I find it hard that some one wouldn't; the EK and MT gain their spells the same way... the EK's clearly states that the spells are the EK's and NOT the class that gave you access to it. Even though it uses what ever spells per day and spells gained that the entry class does; just like the MT; they are considered to be the EK's there by making him a casting class.
*shrugs* But like you said, if they don't want to actually read the whole block rather than take little parts here and there and say rules rules rules but when asked for clarification on something, that's their choice.
well if your dm says its ok you can play it.
but one issue i see is that mystic thurge isn't an arcane caster only, its both an arcane and divine caster so you can't apply EN levels to it since you only gain + caster level in arcane class ONLY as an EN
The block actually states that you can only use it on a class that is an arcane casting class. The rest of it is based off of that classes spells. It's a loop hole in the book. At least that's my opinion.
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You're doing it wrong.
Warpriest 1 (Trickery domain blessing)
Wizard 1 (Scrivener)
Eldritch Knight 8
Mystic Theurge 10
Trait to make Wizard +2 level.
At the end:
*9th level fighter for feats. Got Weapon focus + 2 free feats.
*18th level wizard spells. 20th level wizard spellcaster level.
*11th level divine caster (up to 4rd level spells, using War Priest list)
*Bab +13, +14 when using the War Priest weapon (which is an arcane focus that you got to enchant for half price, yay!)
I like the Theurge capstone better; since it essentially lets you "free action" a spell (and can be combined with quickened, since it doesn't take an action; giving you 3 spells in one turn). You can mix-and-match as you want; the EK capstone doesn't play friendly with the "+5 to damage" from Arcane Strike, making it kinda pointless.
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Archmic...you honestly believe your argument doesn't have holes?
Archmic you are wrong. The spell casting class is what provides the spells. MT just boost your caster level in classes you already have. The two are not synonamous. The table is there to show you how it affects classes that you already have for the purpose of spellcasting. Even if it were RAW, which it is not, most people go by RAI when adjudicating rules. You don't want dead enemies attacking you, do you? O.o
edit: added the word "want"
Archmic...you honestly believe your argument doesn't have holes?
I never said mine didn't have holes. Just that the holes that they were pointing out were smaller in comparison to the ones they were presenting.
For example, I'm stilling trying to get someone to tell me what doesn't make it a spell casting class, and if it's not a spell casting class then what is it? Which was completely ignored seeing as there isn't a written definition of what a spell casting class is and so they can't show me where to find it, because it's more than clear that it can't be your Wizard or Cleric class casting those spells because they are to high level for them.
They really need a voice chat thing on here. It would make things a lot easier than taking the time to type everything out.
A spell casting has a table for spells per day, possible a table for spells known, and a list of spells available to the class. Examples are bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard. Heck, ever paladin and ranger are spell-castingg classes.
The mystic theurge does not have its own table or list. It has a class feaure that refers you to other classes.
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Ease off peeps; this was an interesting thread on a diverse character, I don't think we need to go into fights :).
As to "overpowered", not really IMHO. I think for most levels, the Wizard 2 / Cleric 1 / Mystic Theurge 10 (early entries to allow this; and trait to make your wizard level = character level) is better. At high you COULD throw on Eldritch Knight for "fighter bonuses", but probably don't want to; the addition of BAB and the ability to use weapons is worthless when you have such a diverse aresnal of spells available. When would you EVER want to actually swing a sword / shoot a bow when you have that many spells / day?
The early-entry EK is also better; since they get "online faster" and get a much better BAB (which equates to more attacks and important feats like Improved Precise coming online faster). Divine Hunter 1 / Scriviner 1 / EK 10 is a fantastic character, can overcome any evil creature's DR 1/day, detect evil, has solid saves, tons of feats, and dishes out some mind-blowing damage with his bow (Weapon Spec + Deadly Aim + Arcane Strike). He also gets to enchant said bow for half price. You can finish with Arcane Archer 4 (if you don't mind the loss of 1 caster level) Wizard 5 to end up with the +17 BAB / 9th level spells caster and go to town.
Oh, this has been entertaining; we've all had moments where we thought we had found the "perfect" combo then discovered that it did not pan out... In any case folks, no need to continue trying to convince him; nobody that doesnt want to be convinced wont be convinced by the likes of forumites.
As for you archmic, hopefully there is someone you know (and respect more than forumites) who will convince you otherwise, because I can just imagine a GM laughing in your face if you try to play this. You yourself have said "it's op", so how do you think anything so OP would fly at ANY table? In the end, the GM has no obligation to play by your interpretation of the rules, only his own, so be careful... your stubbornness could be your undoing.
Archmic you are wrong. The spell casting class is what provides the spells. MT just boost your caster level in classes you already have. The two are not synonamous. The table is there to show you how it affects classes that you already have for the purpose of spellcasting. Even if it were RAW, which it is not, most people go by RAI when adjudicating rules. You don't dead enemies attacking you, do you? O.o
How? How is a level 3 cleric casting a level 6 spell? When it's table clearly states that it can't cast those spell until it's level 11. Unless you're using a magic item, but I'm talking about casting the spell without any such device. Since your cleric level never increases how are you casting the spell? Please show me. If you can show me, how a level 3 cleric can cast a level 6 spell with out any assistance from anything. It's just the cleric, well the cleric and any mandatory items he has to have to cast the spell.
He can't. The cleric doesn't have the power to cast a spell that is above his available spells. He doesn't even have a 0 in that slot to indicate that he can use his bonus spell slots from a high wisdom score to cast it. The power to cast that spell is simply beyond him.
So the only explanation is that some other source, in this case it's a class, is providing the power to cast the spell.
The Wizard and Cleric classes are the ignition source, but the Theurge is the fuel.
The Theurge picks up where the other two classes left off. They only provide a path to the power source. The Theurge provides the rest.
Or rather in my attempt at "munchkining", also known as finding loop holes in rules, the Wizard and Cleric classes are the match, the Theurge is the tinder, and the Knight is the fuel in which the fire; magic; comes from.
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I just realized what was being said; my fault.
No, EK doesn't raise your divine caster level. It's just an enhancement to your caster level (and spells) for divine (or arcane). So you would not gain caster level in divine spells there; and while I understand the argument you are going for, I don't think any GM would "buy it" the way you are intepreting the wording. It's not RAI, and I don't even think it's RAW; by RAW, as people are saying, you have to choose the Wizard class (since Mystic never had a class to work off; it was just a similar enhance to "add values"). It'd be difficult finding a GM who would say otherwise.
I just realized what was being said; my fault.
No, EK doesn't raise your divine caster level. It's just an enhancement to your caster level (and spells) for divine (or arcane). So you would not gain caster level in divine spells there; and while I understand the argument you are going for, I don't think any GM would "buy it" the way you are intepreting the wording. It's not RAI, and I don't even think it's RAW; by RAW, as people are saying, you have to choose the Wizard class (since Mystic never had a class to work off; it was just a similar enhance to "add values"). It'd be difficult finding a GM who would say otherwise.
You'd be surprised. Look at Wizards of the Coast, who actually set up a contest to see if some one could make a be all end all char at the lowest level.
These are the creators of Dungeons and Dragons, the game Pathfinder is based off. And they accepted this answer.
http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization /threads/1013486
Would I allow a player to do that? Nope, but that's due to the amount of divine power in my world. Wizards of the coast opened up the floor and gave people unlimited access to any book, item, or thing they wanted.
And Punpun was born.
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Well, again it'd be more powerful in this world, because of early entries.
As a Warpriest 1 / Wizard 1 / EK 1 / Theurge 10 / Eldritch Knight 6 with a trait and early entry requirements (Scriviner/Trickster) you'd be:
*Spells of an 18th level wizard (20th level for arcane casting)
*Spells of a 11th level Warpriest (17th level divine caster)
The fighter part would be irrelevant. You'd need an official Paizo ruling to pull this off though. But they let the SLA qualify for classes (which nobody thought they would), so who knows if they'd allow this to happen too?
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Hahahaha. I'm dreadfully sorry but using Wizards of the Coast, who are the kings of underdeveloped books, almost nullifies any credibility you might have had. This has been an interesting read for sure. However, I agree with the simple statement of proof being your burden. I've seen several quite valid counterarguments, but no amount of proof will change your perspective.
@Archmic
I just realized what was being said; my fault.
No, EK doesn't raise your divine caster level. It's just an enhancement to your caster level (and spells) for divine (or arcane). So you would not gain caster level in divine spells there; and while I understand the argument you are going for, I don't think any GM would "buy it" the way you are intepreting the wording. It's not RAI, and I don't even think it's RAW; by RAW, as people are saying, you have to choose the Wizard class (since Mystic never had a class to work off; it was just a similar enhance to "add values"). It'd be difficult finding a GM who would say otherwise.
You'd be surprised. Look at Wizards of the Coast, who actually set up a contest to see if some one could make a be all end all char at the lowest level.
These are the creators of Dungeons and Dragons, the game Pathfinder is based off. And they accepted this answer.
http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization /threads/1013486
Would I allow a player to do that? Nope, but that's due to the amount of divine power in my world. Wizards of the coast opened up the floor and gave people unlimited access to any book, item, or thing they wanted.
And Punpun was born.
The requested page "/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization%20/threads/1013486" could not be found. <---that is what I got
With that aside Pun Pun was not a part of an "official" contest. That site had a theoretical optimization crowd which would come up with powerful builds based on the loosest interpretation of the rules. Their devs never commented on the site with regard to actual rules so I am sure they never said the MT was its own class. I know because I was on the site almost every day, until a few years after Pathfinder was created.
edit:I used google to get the correct link and nobody official supports your claim. The main poster is just another player.
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To answer OP.
No this build shouldn't be allowed as you interpret it because that is not rules legal.
Your question has been answered. If you don't like the answer go somewhere else with your question. You won't be getting a different answer here.
Hahahaha. I'm dreadfully sorry but using Wizards of the Coast, who are the kings of underdeveloped books, almost nullifies any credibility you might have had. This has been an interesting read for sure. However, I agree with the simple statement of proof being your burden. I've seen several quite valid counterarguments, but no amount of proof will change your perspective.
I did prove... oh never mind.
If burden of proof of what is or isn't a spell casting class requires something that can't be provided then there are no such thing as a spell casting class in this game.
All those classes that supposedly cast "magic" are really just really really good at bluffing.
If I'm wrong in this prove it. The burdens on you now. Just remember,
when you find that proof, you'll have more than likely validated my point with this build and have lost the bigger argument.
Until then, I still believe that my class is legal, with in the limits of the books it was written in and there fore will be submitting it to Paizo so that they can either A.) Approve it for society play; or B.) Create an errata to fix it.
If I'm wrong in this prove it. The burdens on you now.
This is the fall back stance of those who are unable to argue their point.
Archmic you are wrong. The spell casting class is what provides the spells. MT just boost your caster level in classes you already have. The two are not synonamous. The table is there to show you how it affects classes that you already have for the purpose of spellcasting. Even if it were RAW, which it is not, most people go by RAI when adjudicating rules. You don't dead enemies attacking you, do you? O.oHow? How is a level 3 cleric casting a level 6 spell? When it's table clearly states that it can't cast those spell until it's level 11. Unless you're using a magic item, but I'm talking about casting the spell without any such device. Since your cleric level never increases how are you casting the spell? Please show me. If you can show me, how a level 3 cleric can cast a level 6 spell with out any assistance from anything. It's just the cleric, well the cleric and any mandatory items he has to have to cast the spell.
He can't. The cleric doesn't have the power to cast a spell that is above his available spells. He doesn't even have a 0 in that slot to indicate that he can use his bonus spell slots from a high wisdom score to cast it. The power to cast that spell is simply beyond him.
So the only explanation is that some other source, in this case it's a class, is providing the power to cast the spell.
The Wizard and Cleric classes are the ignition source, but the Theurge is the fuel.
The Theurge picks up where the other two classes left off. They only provide a path to the power source. The Theurge provides the rest.
Or rather in my attempt at "munchkining", also known as finding loop holes in rules, the Wizard and Cleric classes are the match, the Theurge is the tinder, and the Knight is the fuel in which the fire; magic; comes from.
Because you don't have MT caster levels. You have arcane X and divine Y caster levels.
When you roll that caster level check which is class dependent or that SR check are you rolling your MT class level to defeat the spell or would you be using your wizard levels to defeat the spell/SR?
Answer is wizard, or cleric if you are using a divine spell for your particular build.. Therefore wizard is the casting class, NOT MT.