The importance of Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot

[Deliverance]

Just how important are they? My reason for asking is, as a Ranger, you can bypass the requirements for your combat style feats. This means you can grab Precise Shot and Manyshot by level 6, avoiding having to take Point Blank Shot, and by extension Rapid Shot (Since it requires Point Blank).

How big of a deal is Rapid shot? You are already taking a -2 on attacks from Deadly Aim, bumping that to -4 with Rapid Shot also seems kinda iffy.

This is for a Sniper-y archer, so Point Blank will only be relevant if something has gone wrong.

So, how much of a damage difference are these two feats?

[Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan]

Point Blank is still +1/+1, which doesn't suck. A lot of encounters are done inside 30', so in those instances Point Blank > Weapon Focus

[Adamantine Dragon]

I would take rapid shot before deadly aim.

Every dedicated archer I've built and played in PF has had point blank shot and rapid shot. Most do not have deadly aim.

[dwayne germaine]

A while back I hammered out the math for a lower level character to see if rapid shot or deadly aim was the better feat to take with an archer. What I came up with was that rapid shot gave a better average damage per round than deadly aim against all but a narrow band of target AC.

Really, If you want to focus on archery for a character I think that both deadly aim and rapid shot are must haves. I was surprised though at how overwhelmingly rapid shot came out ahead of deadly aim. Now what you are looking at is a little different since with the ranger archery feats bypass both point blank shot and rapid shot and this lets you gear up for melee combat as well so it really depends on how much you want to be able to switch it up.

[Deliverance]

The real deal for me is that I can basically save 2 feats by forgetting about Rapid Shot, since Point Blank will rarely be of use for what the character will do (and the setting the game takes place in)

[wraithstrike]

Rapid shot is big boost to DPR(damage per round). I would not skip it.

[Zhayne]

Deliverance wrote:

The real deal for me is that I can basically save 2 feats by forgetting about Rapid Shot, since Point Blank will rarely be of use for what the character will do (and the setting the game takes place in)

This is the problem with feat trees. You often get stuck taking meaningless, inappropriate, and/or underpowered feat taxes before you get to what you actually want.

Considering that Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot have no particular mechanical connection to one another, you might talk to your GM about waiving that requirement, and instead just putting a level limit on Rapid Shot (say, 3rd, which I believe is the first likely opportunity to pick it up).

[Chengar Qordath]

One thing I would point out, a dedicated archery build is going to need so many archery feats that the five combat style feats you get from being an archery ranger just won't be enough to even start covering all the bases. So you'd still need Point-Blank Shot, since pretty much every archery feat in the game has it as a prerequisite (or a prerequisite of it's prerequisites). Not taking Point-Blank means you pretty much only have your bonus feats to spend on archery, and that's just not enough for a dedicated archer. Even with a switch-hitter, using only the bonus feats means making a few hard choices (Rapid Shot vs. Precise Shot at level 2 and Manyshot vs. Improved Precise Shot at level 6).

[cnetarian]

rapid shot is too big a DPS boost to bypass, worth far more than deadly aim at lower levels. rapid shot is on the list of style feats for archery rangers so you don't need to take point blank shot.

[TriOmegaZero]

I have an archer who can get Precise Shot without needing Point Blank, and will be trying it out soon. Will let you know how it turns out.

[Kayerloth]

Same as AD, I'd want Rapid Shot on the build before Deadly Aim. The extra damage from Deadly has to "compete" or be compared with the additional shot and its damage you gained from using Rapid Shot. Deadly is only really going to be a better choice if your typical combat does not allow you to use Full Attacks (which are necessary to employ Rapid Shot). As long as the damage from the extra attack is greater than the cumulative bonus applied from Deadly, Deadly is not as good an option.

EDIT to add: That (Deadly's damage starting to exceed the total damage applied by the extra attack with Rapid) might start to happen at higher levels of play (i.e a larger BAB) ... so some of the answer might also depend on how high a level you are likely to see.

Ultimately if or when approaching and/or exceeding 20th I'd want both and the buffs to hit with most if not all my iterative attacks.

[Remy Balster]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

I have an archer who can get Precise Shot without needing Point Blank, and will be trying it out soon. Will let you know how it turns out.

Rapid shot adds more damage to a full attack than deadly aim. Deadly aim obviously adds more to a standard attack.

The way you are setting your guy up, it sounds like you plan to skirmish, hit and run tactics. If that is the case, you'll live without PBS and RS. But...

Consider that you may still want them anyway. PBS is the defacto prerequisite for a whole host of archery feats, so you may end up needing it later anyway. And if you end up needing it, what was the point of avoiding, when all that did was make you try to live without RS the whole time for nothing...

Plan out a general outline for your character through about however many levels you expect to go in the game. Or at least to 12 or so. If any of the feats you plan to take require PBS, you might as well bite the bullet and get it early, so that you can snag RS.

Rapid Shot adds a LOT of damage, especially at early levels, but basically always.

[Renegadeshepherd]

Rapid shot is almost a must. If u were a full caster or summoner who only shoots when the situation is well in hand and not worth using a spell I could make an arguement for u to not take it. But for a serious archer rapid shot cannot be ignored. Point blank is far less useful once u get to the point where ur shooting two or three arrows every round (which isn't that far) but as someone said it is better than weapon focus. Ultimately if I'm human or taking dips into fighter I always take both and don't regret it. Other than that poi t blank is a judgement call.