Goblin Squad Member
|
Perhaps I can illustrate the value through a couple of examples. Let's say your settlement is having a council meeting would it not add to they story telling atmosphere if the council members could actually take their seats around the table? Heck what good is being the over tyrant of the River Kingdoms if you can't even lounge on your own throne? I can see bards and loremasters filling tomes with useful information and entertaining tales that players try to collect.
Role players don't just enjoy the hack and slash aspects of the game world. Many times they also enjoy the seemingly mundane details of the world too.
That was kind of what I was getting at but my comment was rushed and incomplete enough. Playing the game IS roleplaying and therefore I don't feel like asking for some support or features that aid it is coming from a sense of entitlement.
Now if we are told about feature or mechanic "X", how it works and then go on and on about how it is useless or won't work or not good enough (just because it is not built how we like it) then that seems like it might be stemming from a sense of entitlement.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
One of the most immersive storytelling games I have played to date was Betrayal At Krondor, where all of the visual scenes were static backgrounds and almost all of the interaction was wall-of-text.
What is accomplished by having books that you create filling the bookcase, and avatars who sit in chairs, is intrinsically different- it's much more like the feeling I get when I look upon my stained glass displays in Minecraft than the feeling I get when I tell a cooperative story.
I think the aim for books and chairs is more about meeting a social need similar to that which is met by attending parties and other gatherings of people.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I wish I understood better the value proposition of things like books you can write in or chairs you can sit in from a "roleplaying perspective".That would depend upon what you value. Role-players want their world to be more than a limited number of interactive buttons and toggles utilized strictly for numerical gain of one form or another. We want the world, as much as possible, to feel real - even down to something as simple as sitting in a chair. It's often about the ability to manipulate your surroundings such that those surroundings don't feel like static props and backdrops on someone else's stage. Would you rather have your character walk into a two dimensional representation of a tavern - flat and noninteractive - or a fully realized tavern, complete with usable chairs so you can sit with friends and feel at home? Would you rather have a painting of a bookcase, or one stocked with real books filled with player writing - the history of your CC, settlement policies, secret messages, poetry, clues to a player designed quest, etc.
Hobs nailed it.
Additionally, such things make for a brand new collecting game within the game. I remember back when I played UO, the customizable player housing floored me. I poured so many hours into the game working to acquire the skills to craft furniture and acquire the funds to purchase, build, and decorate the house. While I do not think anyone expects housing at this point, I know at least a few people around here who would make it a point to try to collect book series and more. Not to mention several bards-to-be who would love to become famous by seeing their works be spread and copied via chapbooks.
These are things that do not really stand out as important in a single-player RPG. But once you play an mmo game that includes them, you always feel like something is missing from every mmo that you play which doesn't.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I wish I understood better the value proposition of things like books you can write in or chairs you can sit in from a "roleplaying perspective".
I think that perhaps my definition of "roleplaying" is not in the same venn diagram as those other things.
Basically its about your character being able to do what you what them to do. This includes simple things like wanting your character to sit in a chair or on the grass. Books help build a character. For example it could be an in character diary of your character's mentor that gives insight as to why your character acts a certain way.
Those kinds of things add value for RP.
As to verbs and such check out the following website.
http://www.sylvanfair.com/Verb_Scripts/verb_page1.htm
Its a verb list for a MUD and people suggest many many more every week. That MUD is largely about RP.
Anyway having things like that add value to the RP, however I think the question is how much would it cost to add all that kind of stuff vs how many people would really use it. I suspect that verbs would get used a decent amount, but things like books wont be used very much outside of the hardcore RP group and would be one of those "nifty" things that gets ignored by the majority of the player base.
I would like to see an emote or ACT verb.
Act sits down and waves PC2 to sit next to him. This would output
Leperkhaun sits down and waves PC2 to sit next to him.
Things like books can be done by the player base by allowing RP friendly addons (wow has various ones where you can create objects and other such things such as bios that people with that add on can see and interact with).
What I would like to see is a large number of items so people can get together a coordinated outfit. I would also like to see the ability to either have your visual weapons/armor different that the stats. I would like to see non combat armor/gear. So i can dress as a rich merchant and craft a shirt out of pure gold thread. It would be stupid expensive and basically a waste but I could show off. On the flip side i would like to see common outfits and such.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Things like books can be done by the player base by allowing RP friendly addons (wow has various ones where you can create objects and other such things such as bios that people with that add on can see and interact with).
This area gets into double-edged swords. On one hand, it can be very useful. But then at some point we reach a position where everyone needs to run 50 different add-ons that can break any time there is an update, and then only a minority of people actually use the add-ons because coordinating their use across a broad public tends to be difficult. I knew of many such "RP Item" add-ons in wow, but never met anyone really using them. =/
However, if it is in the base game, it will likely see wide adoption.
I wish I understood better the value proposition of things like books you can write in or chairs you can sit in from a "roleplaying perspective".
I think that perhaps my definition of "roleplaying" is not in the same venn diagram as those other things.
Lol, that's exactly what I'm saying... Roleplaying: It's all in your head.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Lol, that's exactly what I'm saying... Roleplaying: It's all in your head.
If it's all in our head, then we would do it without the game and GW would have had far less kickstarter support.
Given his first statement, I have the impression that Ryan's definition of roleplaying is likely as simple as, "You're role-playing because you're controlling an avatar that is not yourself and doing things you cant' really do." If that's all that role-playing is, you're technically role-playing in a single player console game, though I suspect most role-players would not agree. If that's all that role-play is, I would have been satisfied with EVE, but it takes more than the equivalent of "spreadsheets in space" to pique my interest in a game, let alone call it role-play.
If I have Ryan's definition wrong, I'd be happy to hear his thoughts.
People role-play with SPRPG's... That's why Skyrim and the Elder Scrolls series (the single-player series) has done so well. Yes, you'll need the basis for the game... a world to explore, a system where you can progress, class/race choices, but that basic "wire-frame" is all you really need.
CoD doesn't give you a world to explore, it doesn't give you means of progressing a character (just unlocking items), etc. All you need is the "wire-frame", and that's what you'll be getting with PFO. You don't need Ryan or the team at GW to come hold your hand every time you want to RP.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'd value the ability to leave clues on parchment in an NPC settlement for a young player to find that would lead that player and their friends on a small adventure I could engineer.
Items needed would include
Ideally I'd like a mechanism where the game would draw a map of the area where I set the container. Then the clues might lead to a map which provides the location of the container.
Then with the container stocked I would take it to a location, preferably an escalation area, initiate the map drawing mechanism, then place that map in a likely spot like a ruin, or an abandoned cottage, or similar.
Then I would find a spot to hide the clues document, but not so well that it wouldn't be found.
And if someone happened to find the container without finding the clues then that is fine, except I would prefer that should that happen the associated note and map should vanish.
Of course all that could be automated into the escalation cycle and autogenerated, but where would the fun be in that?
The value is in seeing players discover adventure, gather together to accomplish a mission, and find reward at the end.
These things are furniture for an environment that facilitate the working and sharing of imagination. These are tools that facilitate the making of friends (and enemies). The value is that there should be a set of better reasons for all the war and PvP. PvP alone could be done over a chessboard. RP gives PvP meaning. RP is why I should defend my town and my friends because without it I would not belong with that town or have friends living there to defend.
Were you actually to consider this sort of thing then what more non-advantaging products could you offer in the GW Store than RP props like these? Let them be purchased, and let them be consumed with use.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
People role-play with SPRPG's... That's why Skyrim and the Elder Scrolls series (the single-player series) has done so well. Yes, you'll need the basis for the game... a world to explore, a system where you can progress, class/race choices, but that basic "wire-frame" is all you really need.
CoD doesn't give you a world to explore, it doesn't give you means of progressing a character (just unlocking items), etc. All you need is the "wire-frame", and that's what you'll be getting with PFO. You don't need Ryan or the team at GW to come hold your hand every time you want to RP.
It sounded almost as if you were arguing that PFO should be just like Call of Duty. Apt comparison. Meaningless PvP.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I come from D&D PnP, long long before video game RPGs, when all there really was was RP. The game mechanics were actually disposable, we were telling a story about our characters, during their adventures.
I find it a bit odd that Ryan doesn't seem to have a background in RPGs.
People will actually pay to do the most mundane things, and even if you don't understand it, it will make a positive difference GW's bottom line.
The more "alive" you make the game world seem, you will get paid back multiple times for your efforts to create those small details. It's not even like it is something that is tough to develop, hundreds of video games have those small details already.
I would imagine the basic game engine you guys are looking to use, already has many of the basic building blocks that have been mentioned here.
But hey, don't take it from me. You'll here from the trolls in OE if they can't sit in a chair!
I find it a bit odd that Ryan doesn't seem to have a background in RPGs.
He worked at Wizards of the Coast.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Ryan may have enough experience with RPG players to not wish to expend the time and money to build things nobody is really going to use.
If you DM'd and built a vast elaborate dungeon, fully stocked to the most minute detail, a masterpiece worthy of a Leonardo, and character after character just walked right by without even rolling a check you might have second thoughts about building stuff for those players again.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Ryan may have enough experience with RPG players to not wish to expend the time and money to build things nobody is really going to use.
If you DM'd and built a vast elaborate dungeon, fully stocked to the most minute detail, a masterpiece worthy of a Leonardo, and character after character just walked right by without even rolling a check you might have second thoughts about building stuff for those players again.
In that line of thought, the game graphics could look like this:
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm confused; why do some players want to play a character who hides boxes of stuff and leaves cryptic notes for someone to find, so that they can seek out and find the box after someone else had already stumbled across it and emptied it?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Items you can interact with simply add flavour to the game and facilitate roleplaying. Chairs within an inn you can sit at. Tankards of ale you can drink from. Dart boards you can throw darts at. Parchment you can write in-character stories, maps or directions to dungeons on.
They are not necessary, just like in PvP, different weapons and armour are not needed. Everyone could use leather armour and use a dagger. Adding variety just adds flavour and gives players choices for their characters.
The very first sentence on the goblinworks main page states PFO is a roleplaying game. I hope this part is fleshed out beyond just speech bubbles.
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
I wish I understood better the value proposition of things like books you can write in or chairs you can sit in from a "roleplaying perspective".
I think that perhaps my definition of "roleplaying" is not in the same venn diagram as those other things.
For me, there are things which help with roleplaying, by immersing me more fully into the game world, helping me feel like it it more of a real (virtual) world, and not "just" a game.
In EVE Online, having an avatar which can wander around (even if it's only in the tiny captain's quarters) helps me better imagine that persona as someone different from myself, instead of "me playing the game of internet spaceships".
A couple of things help me with that immersion; some are perhaps more conventions from roleplaying in earlier MMO's.
Relatively small things:
- being able to walk instead of run - in real life, no-one runs all the time; and when I play WoW, people walking instead of running are usually roleplayers (I play on a RP server, but it's not like everyone there is a roleplayer). Walking (or riding) at a leisurely pace from A to B (on patrol, on a pelgrimmage, etc.) as your characters, while talking in character about the world, and looking at the great vista's the game presents around you, can be quite a fun way to spend some time (at least, for me).
- similarly, being able to sit, on chairs and/or on the ground helps with immersion, feeling you're really there. Telling stories around the campfire in-character, perhaps.
- things like scrolls and books mean you can send notes to people. In WoW, we used the text items from received mails, as there wasn't anything else.
Imagine sending a messenger to some lord with a sealed note, or some plan to be captured. It opens up the opportunity for more in-game play for some of us, instead of either going out of game for things like that, or just imagining them.
- an emote system also helps with immersion. Being able to type "/me raises an eyebrow" and getting that into local chat as "Gilthy raises an eyebrow" is a nice start.
Age of Conan has a huge list of animated emotes (from dancing to leaning against a wall), and WoW actually animates your avatar if you talk in /say (with different animations for ending your sentence with a "!" or a "?", or /yell-ing). Again, it all helps with immersion.
None of those are strictly needed for the MVP, but I can imagine it's useful to anticipate having things like these at some point in the game (mostly so it's, well, perhaps not easy to add them later on, but at least possible).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I come from D&D PnP, long long before video game RPGs, when all there really was was RP. The game mechanics were actually disposable, we were telling a story about our characters, during their adventures.
I find it a bit odd that Ryan doesn't seem to have a background in RPGs.
People will actually pay to do the most mundane things, and even if you don't understand it, it will make a positive difference GW's bottom line.
The more "alive" you make the game world seem, you will get paid back multiple times for your efforts to create those small details. It's not even like it is something that is tough to develop, hundreds of video games have those small details already.
I would imagine the basic game engine you guys are looking to use, already has many of the basic building blocks that have been mentioned here.
But hey, don't take it from me. You'll here from the trolls in OE if they can't sit in a chair!
I think the question is about priorities? Ryan has a lot of RPG experience as mentioned above.
I think if you are building a virtual digital world, then the cause and effects in that world need to all be connected for real consequences to our characters and the world itself?
But what you say about adding little details in such a simulation that somehow interacts or can be made to create a"Butterfly Effect", then I'd say that is 100% important.
In fact that is what I'd question what is important: Players creatively experimenting with things or people. Isn't that what a lot of real life fails to provide for people in their day-to-day jobs? In my experience it really is, but I've had plenty of grindy-poor jobs tbh. :)
Edit: Just to further mention: If the PvE side of the equation fails in Themepark games because it involves no lasting changes, I'm aware (only) that Asheron's Call patched the game and updated according to player actions. Escalations are somewhat open-pve content but I wonder if the GW devs can run their own PvE input-outputs based on our player behaviours to drive the world map npc/environment world interactions side of the equation and update the game world periodically based off that (metrics/targets non-disclosed to players etc etc)?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
You don't need Ryan or the team at GW to come hold your hand every time you want to RP.
No one is asking to be hand held. As I stated earlier, if - as you keep asserting - all you needed to feel immersed in your RP within a game was your imagination, then we really wouldn't need PFO at all. Unfortunately, you continue to push to the extremes of an argument (and often insultingly so) to make your case.
BECAUSE RP'ing relies much more on player imagination, they don't need NEARLY as much to enjoy a rich gaming experience
It's the "NEARLY" part that we're really discussing here. Can GW not afford at least a modicum of programming/code/etc. for a portion of its player base?
Let me approach this from a money & PR standpoint. For a game that likely hopes to make a portion of its revenue by luring Pathfinder players into an MMO at least loosely based on the table top namesake, I would think it a worthwhile expenditure of time and money to throw the RP community a small bone or two and make those TT veterans feel a bit more at home in the new setting. Or is it that any time at all taken away from PvP development is being viewed as a total waste, as if GW should cater exclusively to PvPers?
Before anyone accuses me of not knowing what PFO is about, I (and I believe other RPers in this thread) are not asking to turn the game into an RP-fest. Within the existing context of the game, we're simply brainstorming ideas of how to add a touch of realism and creativity.
Put another way, I don't have to role-play that I hit you with a sword. I can do it. You can tell I did it. It is a visible reality to both of us, complete with effects (spattering blood, armor damage, you fall over dead...). Neither of us need to imagine anything to feel that my action happened. The game provides all the evidence we need. But if I stand next to a noninteractive chair, emoting that I'm sitting, not only doesn't that seem real within the context of the game, but it's the kind of work-around in a less than RP friendly environment that causes nonrole-players to look at us and ask, "What's with that guy?"
In that nearly every other consideration in game development is being made for PvP, settlement conflict, etc., is having a chair that works like a chair really that much to ask?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
In UO the chair was quite useful, eg players experimented with stacking them in front of gates to block them up or used them to pile up and drop through the roof of a player's locked house and steal everything. :)
So these had ripple effects (good or bad: You decide!). I'd ask: If any RP item or features is added, then it must pass the test of "ripple effects" and then be ordered according to how consequential it will impact on the game by comparison to other features (for sake of priority). How about that?
The way I see it, PFO will indeed start spartan but as more is developed and as more (quantity of as opposed to potency) consequential features are added, these will form the basis for RP with meaningful impact and greater scope for verisimilitude; which is what RP needs to be able to achieve to work in the game world.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
And hey, if a chair can be sat upon and is a real object in the game, maybe you could find other uses for them.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
why do some players want to play a character who hides boxes of stuff and leaves cryptic notes for someone to find,'Why' is because those players value the enjoyment of their fellows and believe players play the game to have fun together, and believe other players will have fun with the content being created.
so that they can seek out and find the box after someone else had already stumbled across it and emptied it?
That is where you appear confused. The intent is not for someone else to empty the container, but in the event that someone else did, then the container and clues to find it should vanish. I wouldn't want someone to follow the map only to find a pilfered chest.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The argument that in order to code for simple emotes or environment interactions, takes away from coding for more "important" game mechanics is a bit of a red herring.
I'm not a game designer, but some of these things have to be as standard as tires on a car. They have to be as simple as elements that are learned how to code in Game Design 101.
I was in real estate for a very brief time, but one of the things they taught us in the course was that simple landscaping pays back five-fold in a property's value.
GW also needs to keep in mind the MMO market realities. The last group to leave an MMO are the RP'ers, provided they have the standard tools in the game that support their play.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hobs has hit on it. I've yet to play a game that I've not had to separate what my character is doing mechanically from what they would be doing if I were being true to the character concept I created in my head. Roleplaying isn't about escaping a dull real life, it's like acting in a movie and getting into the depth of a designed character. The props used for the set can either be cardboard cutouts from a middle school play or they can be an intricately designed Hollywood set. Roleplaying is an entirely social aspect of the game and builds strong communities. Someone with an imagination doesn't need props. You could RP in DCUO if you really wanted to, but it's not as much fun as it was in SWG.
RP is a time filler for when you can't do anything else and I'd argue it's the only reason besides being Star Wars that SWG lasted as long as it did.
Will I play this game without tools that support RP, probably. I enjoy pvp immensely so yeah I'll be pvping with Pax. It'll get pretty old fast for anyone but someone who concentrates solely on pvp without some tools. I've gotten use to games not supporting RP and I've gotten older and curmudgeon-ey so I don't do it as much as I used to.
The tools I'd like to see at a minimum (the other things that have been mentioned are nice too):
-Variety of clothing/armor with the ability to dye
-At least the ability to use customized emotes.
-Individual housing with furniture.
-Sitting in chairs
Why wouldn't you want to add things to the Skinner box that players come up with themselves to spend time in your game. They're doing the work for you once you build the set.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The argument that in order to code for simple emotes or environment interactions, takes away from coding for more "important" game mechanics is a bit of a red herring.
I'm not a game designer, but some of these things have to be as standard as tires on a car. They have to be as simple as elements that are learned how to code in Game Design 101.
I was in real estate for a very brief time, but one of the things they taught us in the course was that simple landscaping pays back five-fold in a property's value.
GW also needs to keep in mind the MMO market realities. The last group to leave an MMO are the RP'ers, provided they have the standard tools in the game that support their play.
It break it down into 2 areas:
1) PFO = MMORPG 3D Fantasy = Bipedal avatars with faces
* So it's evidently important for these representations of players to be able to service communication between players. I guess emotes might therefore be quite as important as the gear and other ways to personalize the avatar? I don't know if emotes do or do not enormously help with that goal - but something needs to eg text and voice-coms +?
If you're keen on keeping socializers who expect minimum these things then perhaps that is how to y/n get these in.
I kinda like if emotes become part of the skill-training, so animations that are tied to skill-training open up. Eg dance for a bard or something like that a range of dances with more skill-training here... ? If you skill train charisma or whatever suitable diplomacy/leadership skill then your avatar can smile convincingly etc etc?? Sorta already brought up previously in the forum but worth embellishing this idea to combine avatar communication signals + skill-training achievement ?
2) Environmental interactions = 3d object world follow rules
*I'd love to see more of this, but with a ton of players on a single server anything gross such as weather that then modifies eg "wet day = bow-string is damp and has negative modifier etc". Then I'm all up for that. Voxels would be great, but I feel like infini-miner style game play or mod-making then make the game much more around that? perhaps I'm not using my head enough on what other sorts of environmental interaction we could make a go of, in PFO??
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The tools I'd like to see at a minimum (the other things that have been mentioned are nice too):
-Variety of clothing/armor with the ability to dye
-At least the ability to use customized emotes.
-Individual housing with furniture.
-Sitting in chairs
Pretty solid list and mimics what I would be hoping to see myself. Consider it seconded!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Hobs has hit on it. I've yet to play a game that I've not had to separate what my character is doing mechanically from what they would be doing if I were being true to the character concept I created in my head. Roleplaying isn't about escaping a dull real life, it's like acting in a movie and getting into the depth of a designed character. The props used for the set can either be cardboard cutouts from a middle school play or they can be an intricately designed Hollywood set. Roleplaying is an entirely social aspect of the game and builds strong communities. Someone with an imagination doesn't need props. You could RP in DCUO if you really wanted to, but it's not as much fun as it was in SWG.
RP is a time filler for when you can't do anything else and I'd argue it's the only reason besides being Star Wars that SWG lasted as long as it did.
Will I play this game without tools that support RP, probably. I enjoy pvp immensely so yeah I'll be pvping with Pax. It'll get pretty old fast for anyone but someone who concentrates solely on pvp without some tools. I've gotten use to games not supporting RP and I've gotten older and curmudgeon-ey so I don't do it as much as I used to.
The tools I'd like to see at a minimum (the other things that have been mentioned are nice too):
-Variety of clothing/armor with the ability to dye
-At least the ability to use customized emotes.
-Individual housing with furniture.
-Sitting in chairsWhy wouldn't you want to add things to the Skinner box that players come up with themselves to spend time in your game. They're doing the work for you once you build the set.
This is a pretty good case for RP features, I must say.
I'll add however, that the distinction between work and play is to my mind exactly why games should offer creativity for players who are not fortunate enough to consider their work more like "play"! I'm working on it however!
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
From what I'm seeing, it seems like most of the self-identified "Roleplayers" want commands and animations of a similar number and technological nature to the commands and animations available to PvP players, but with the meaningfulness of those actions not being server-mediated.
Am I mostly correct in that?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Let me add one thought. Whenever RP is mentioned in the same breath as all the other provided activities in an MMO, there is the tendency to portray it as a social pass-time, as if it is something you do separate from other activities, or worse yet, while you're waiting for other activities to take place. For instance, he's planning to do a little PvP by ambushing a caravan, to go kill monsters in an escalation, to craft some items, go role-play. Worse than "or"...he's waiting for an escalation or that item to pop out of the crafting hopper...so he might as well role-play while he's waiting, as if role-play were simply a way to pass the time.
For some of us, role-play isn't an aside to the game, it's something we do while playing every other part of the game. If I'm hunting monsters, I'm still role-playing Hobs. Hobs will still act like Hobs (not me), he will still interact with the world based on what Hobs (the character) sees, hears, understands, etc. There won't be "Hobs' player while playing PFO" and then "Hobs' player while Role-playing in PFO". There will just be "Hobs in PFO".
I think the temptation to view all role-players as doing their own thing off in the corner, away from the rest of the player body, is to assume that all role-play is some form of minigame within the larger game environment. True, historically there have been some RP communities that worked that way and have brought that judgement upon themselves and, unfortunately, the rest of we role-players. However, for those of us who wrap up everything we do in-game within a skin of role-play, it is even more vital to have the world feel more real for our characters, because we are interacting with that world in the same way every other player does, plus trying to experience it through our character's eyes. So when a chair doesn't work as a chair, we're forced back into the role of a player watching a particular mass of pixels go where we tell it to go.
As for me, I plan to play PFO as fully as any other player. The only possible difference - I'll be doing so in-character. I don't plan to be any less effective of a harvester, merchant, healer, etc. because I also role-play my character. I'm not going to be spending hours huddled with other role-players "imagining" together in some corner of a tavern. Rather, I intend to squeeze every bit of game enjoyment out of PFO that the developers put in it for any other play-style...and then, like a big, tasty MMO sundae, I'll place the cherry that is role-play squarely on the top.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
From what I'm seeing, it seems like most of the self-identified "Roleplayers" want commands and animations of a similar number and technological nature to the commands and animations available to PvP players, but with the meaningfulness of those actions not being server-mediated.
Am I mostly correct in that?
I don't think you are
The only animation I think rp'ers have asked for is sitting in a chair.
custom emotes I think most aren't expecting anymore than any game gives them which is a line of text coming up along the lines of
Pagan takes a long drag from his cigar.
I do expect the built in emotes may well have animations as well but they are generally no where near the complexity of combat animations and certainly the number of built in emotes doesn't have to be extensive at least to start with.
Frankly I do not understand the point of view of some here who are arguing that RP should not get any support because rp'ers can use their imagination. Surely that applies to PVP or PVE just as strongly and there is no need for combat animations at all as you can imagine your character swinging the sword and the resultant splatter of gore. All the game needs to do is let you indicate which skill you are using and tell you the result. This is patently a silly argument when applied to PVP or PVE and is just as silly when applied to RP.
The reason for the game to support animations to indicate what is happening for all three are the same. It aids immersion in the world and immersion in a believable world aids player retention.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I hate to quote myself Hobs, but I said this on page 1:
"I actually find that RP is the one aspect of an MMORPG that can stand alone or be mixed in equally well with PvP or PVE."
Both PVP and PVE are actually enhanced by RP. I can not think of any way that RP can take away from them. But all three play styles can stand alone as well.
PVE + PVP + RP are the true "Holy Trinity" of an Sandbox, Open World MMORPG.
I personally would like to see an effort on GW's part to get the mix around 30% PVE, 50% PVP and 20% RP. That would be my ideal mix.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
From what I'm seeing, it seems like most of the self-identified "Roleplayers" want commands and animations of a similar number and technological nature to the commands and animations available to PvP players, but with the meaningfulness of those actions not being server-mediated.
Am I mostly correct in that?
Given that the game will focus on settlement conflict, made possible or at least augmented by PvP, crafting, escalations, etc., I doubt anyone is asking for anything similar in number to all the commands and animations available to PvPers or even crafters. The lists I've seen posted here are pretty short, and some (such as skins and dyes) have been mentioned in other threads.
Also worth mentioning, the things we are asking for are not only usable by role-players, but will hopefully make the world feel more real, and thus more entertaining, for any player.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I remember this chair discussion from GW2 forums. I think they're still not in that game despite much requests, from a quick google search?
I'm not against chair sitting, in fact if there are taverns and bars then I think it could be very important animation perhaps, along with something iirc Nihimon suggested /rolls dice /dice turns up a 5 etc etc for "dice/card" games in the tavern while sitting with a heady dram to hand.
But I'm curious where in priority or where as a component of in priority does it sit? That's the question.
I'm torn between: (1) "here's a set of emotes for freestyle during all those down times" that players will all be exposed to in the game and (2) emotes associated with learning a skill as a reward and as development of your character (both skill and expression of).
I just find for risk of boring everyone to death with one individual's pov, that a lot of mmorpgs have many threads starting with, "Wouldn't feature X be cool to have in game... ."
I need to structure how it relates to the rest of the game to be able to decide if feature X can faff off for another time or if feature X is the philosopher's stone that really needs to be in!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@AvenaOats
GW2 does not have a very good reputation, honestly its reputation is that it sucks. I've played it for about 6 hours, its a button masher grind fest. It is not the least bit innovative or interesting. The fact that they won't cater even a little bit to the RP community, is the eventual nail in its own coffin. If it were not a F2P model from the start, it would have become one within 2 months of its launch.
GW / PFO should not be do short sighted. A long view of PFI means that certain standard MVP elements of RP should be in-game during EE.
A Few Emotes
A Few environmental interactions
A Few Social Clothing
Viewable Character Bios
These can later be expanded in number and or made more complex in later expansions / patches.
The game doesn't need a bunch of extra role-playing elements. To get the perfect role playing experience, you just need to buy the Magic Chair of Roleplaying, which can be found here, for only $100:
This will make all your Roleplaying dreams come true, and, at only $100, your practically stealing it compared to what you get it.
Explore new worlds in the infinite space of your imagination... Let your dreams come alive
Order the chair today and never worry about Roleplaying support again... they even come with 4 legs which keep you elevated above the ground!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Then maybe some universal emote stuff every character gets. And for more emotes and so on (crowdforging) perhaps combined with skill-training (which I like the idea of).
Perhaps you're right and people really expect emotes as part of the core/basic/starting avatar.
The reason I mention GW2 is the budget was again pretty high and you'd expect they'd have sitting in chairs for all races, especially given their de-emphasis on end-game (ie none and alternatives eg mini-games) as opposed to emergent gameplay being the solution which PFO/EVE aim for.
Bowing is a good one possibly. If you bow, it allows a code of conduct type of interaction ("parley" as they say in that pirates movie I always found amusing).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm not against chair sitting, in fact if there are taverns and bars then I think it could be very important animation perhaps, along with something iirc Nihimon suggested /rolls dice /dice turns up a 5 etc etc for "dice/card" games in the tavern while sitting with a heady dram to hand.
But I'm curious where in priority or where as a component of in priority does it sit? That's the question.
I think you have a valid question here. One of the things that was said early on about settlements was that (some?) buildings might not be enter-able. They would have a function, but aren't necessarily a space we move into and around, not at launch anyway.
So how does an inn or tavern function if our avatars don't move around inside? Or inns an exception to the buildings aren't enterable idea? Personally I'd rather characters be able to do actually actions rather than having my chat window flooded with endless variations of "Sam sits on the edge of his chair and edgily smokes his pipe." "Ed drums his fingers anxiously on the table." etc, etc.
If it's going to be all /emotes, I hope we also have an option to ignore all emotes. I'll toggle that for my sanity before entering a tavern.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There was a screenshot of the inn inside: Every Picture Tells a Story
behold an early incarnation of a Pathfinder Online Tavern!
So hopefully inside the Inn is... in? /I'll get my coat.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I wish I understood better the value proposition of things like books you can write in or chairs you can sit in from a "roleplaying perspective".
I think that perhaps my definition of "roleplaying" is not in the same venn diagram as those other things.
The value as a designer is that they are tools that don't take much resources yet a dedicated portion of the player population will use them to create oodles of content for ourselves.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The game doesn't need a bunch of extra role-playing elements. To get the perfect role playing experience, you just need to buy the Magic Chair of Roleplaying, which can be found here, for only $100:
This will make all your Roleplaying dreams come true, and, at only $100, your practically stealing it compared to what you get it.
Explore new worlds in the infinite space of your imagination... Let your dreams come alive
Order the chair today and never worry about Roleplaying support again... they even come with 4 legs which keep you elevated above the ground!
I get the feeling you were forced to sit in a lot of corners with chairs like that.
I get the feeling you were forced to sit in a lot of corners with chairs like that.The game doesn't need a bunch of extra role-playing elements. To get the perfect role playing experience, you just need to buy the Magic Chair of Roleplaying, which can be found here, for only $100:
This will make all your Roleplaying dreams come true, and, at only $100, your practically stealing it compared to what you get it.
Explore new worlds in the infinite space of your imagination... Let your dreams come alive
Order the chair today and never worry about Roleplaying support again... they even come with 4 legs which keep you elevated above the ground!
I get the feeling you're a stand-up comedian IRL.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wish I understood better the value proposition of things like books you can write in or chairs you can sit in from a "roleplaying perspective".
I think that perhaps my definition of "roleplaying" is not in the same venn diagram as those other things.
I wish I better understood why you would want to develop an open sandbox game based upon the Pathfinder universe without including RP elements. In the pitch Goblin-works provided to its kick-starters, GW advocated that this game was not an endless grind. To many individuals, the few Golgothan Heavy RPers included, this introduced a game based upon a highly successful table top role-playing game where swinging your sword was just as important as being able to talk your way out of situations.
I think what players want here is Immersion. The ability to escape reality in a video game based upon their favorite fantasy table top universe. You chose the setting, and had to have had the market research to understand who would be willing to kick-start such a game. Your game appeals to the RP community as much as it does the PvP community. Your giving progression regardless of time spent grinding out resources.
I understand that it will take time to implement the things your players want to see. I also realize that most of those said players do not expect that upon EE or even OE.
Pathfinder is a Role-playing game. You escape from the tedium of normal existence into a fantasy realm where you fill the role of your fantasy.
For any corroboration on my argument, you need only check the core-rule book for Pathfinder. In the items section you will find such items as: Chalk, Hourglass, Ink, Ink pen, Small steel Mirror, Parchment, Sealing Wax, Water Clock, etc..
The list of examples of RPing in the table top go on and on.
An Exert from the Game Masters Guide:
"Retaining Interest
Listening to your players is important not only when looking to start a new campaign but also during the course of the story. From your seat at the table, you can tell who's engaged and who's not. The goal should always be to figure out whats going to get them back in the game (without sacrificing the fun of the others, of course). If during the last game session a particular player seemed bored when it wasn't her turn in combat, make a point to chat with her about the reasons why. Maybe she doesn't feel like her character is performing well or getting enough of the spotlight outside of combat. It only takes a slight tweak or a single encounter tailored to her skill set to make a disenfranchised player feel like a valuable part of the group."
I certainly only expect a minimum viable product. I am a PvP player, to the core. In all aspects: Combat, Diplomacy, Military Strategy, etc.. But I am obligated to voice the concerns of those that call Golgotha Home.
|
CEO, Goblinworks
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sitting in a chair and writing notes in a book or scroll seem so .... unimaginative.
I can't say that in close to 30 years of playing roleplaying games I've ever thought "the best part of that session was when I sat in a chair".
If you came to me in 1990 and said "imagine you're playing a shared world game with thousands of other people in a detailed 3D virtual fantasy world - tell me what you would want to be able to do in that world that would be meaningful to you as a way of developing your character" I can guarantee you "sit in a chair" was not going to be on the list.
Sitting in a chair and writing notes in a book or scroll seem so .... unimaginative.
I can't say that in close to 30 years of playing roleplaying games I've ever thought "the best part of that session was when I sat in a chair".
If you came to me in 1990 and said "imagine you're playing a shared world game with thousands of other people in a detailed 3D virtual fantasy world - tell me what you would want to be able to do in that world that would be meaningful to you as a way of developing your character" I can guarantee you "sit in a chair" was not going to be on the list.
UNLESS, it was the Magic Chair of Roleplaying...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sitting in a chair and writing notes in a book or scroll seem so .... unimaginative.
I can't say that in close to 30 years of playing roleplaying games I've ever thought "the best part of that session was when I sat in a chair".
If you came to me in 1990 and said "imagine you're playing a shared world game with thousands of other people in a detailed 3D virtual fantasy world - tell me what you would want to be able to do in that world that would be meaningful to you as a way of developing your character" I can guarantee you "sit in a chair" was not going to be on the list.
Perhaps what people are telling you is they prefer to keep their imagination for the big things and think the small everyday things aren't what they should need to imagine