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I am probably going to play with my local PFS group in the next two weeks, and would likely be joining a 7-11 game.
Currently I don't have a PC in-level. Most of the group has, though, and a couple of them are pretty strong characters. We're almost certainly going to be in the 7-8 subtier.
Which level 7 Pregens are the strongest? I don't care too much for which I play, but I don't want to be a big drain on the party.
I've been interested in trying a Gunslinger or Monk, so comments on those especially would be helpful.
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The monk and gunslinger are among the most useless, never pick them.
Don't believe them that the pregen is good all the time, it is a trap
And here we go again with the pregen hate. STOP IT!
It has been said ad nauseum, the pregens are not optimized and players need to stop evaluating them as such. Be grateful that there is even the option to play at higher levels with a pregen. The pregens are not worthless. They function just fine.Derek, I would encourage you to pick whichever pregen sounds interesting or is a class you have yet to experience. If the party you will be joining is an uber-optmized one, none of the pregens are going to measure up statistically so don't try. Alternately, you can select the pregen based on any missing aspects of the party.
No healer...Kyra
No ranged...Harsk, Lirianne
No arcane...Ezren, Seoni, Lem
Need more melee...Amiri, Valeros, Hayato, even Reiko if played correctly
Don't give up the chance to have fun just to play a sheet of paper with numbers written on it. I also encourage you to give the pregen some "character." When I play Kyra, she is patterned off Paula Deen. When I've played Damiel (alchemist) he was like Spicolli from Fast Times at Ridgemont High. I've played Ezren like Chrisopher Lloyd from Back to the Future or like an old curmudgeon like Walther Mattheau. The point is, have fun and don't get caught up with the pregen bashing or overly focused on the specific numbers on the page.
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Thanks for the input. Bob, your thoughts mirror others I've read. I think as long as your expectations of a pregen's mechanical abilities aren't out of line, then you've got a real chance to enjoy the game.
If I do end up playing, then I've got no problem trying to rock some skill checks and let others take the lead in combat.
I also like your idea of adding personal flavor to the pregens. I'll have to see how things end up working out, but my "creative juices" are working a bit, and for that I thank you.
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Right, Wheezy - the alchemist is gone. And I agree with you and Eric that Kyra probably has the most general utility of all the pregens, based on what I've read. She's no battle cleric, but buffs and heals are always welcome. I'll just have to see who else signs up for the game, but I can't remember any clerics in the group.
Regarding the level 7 pregen, Kyra and Lem have saved our butts more than once. Without Kyra, we'd have had a TPK in Deepmar on, like, day one, day two, and all the other days. In Ironwood Watch, Lem consistently used inspire courage and dispel magic to be very effective in combat.
You'll find that while the pregens aren't optimal, they're solidly built and come in handy. Pregens usually look bad because they're being played by people who don't understand the class/system. They're an excellent introductory tool. Pregens in the hands of those who competently play them look quite good. It's part of the bad players make good characters bad and good players make bad characters good.
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Oh, also, for ranged characters, he is recommending a character who can fire once per round (Lirianne), and a character who can't fire more than once every two rounds (harsk).
They are whatever at level 1, but at level 7 you are facing real monsters with real powers. 1d8+5 once a round and 1d10+3 every two rounds is not viable against these monsters
And if the game is only played like WoW or if they are the ONLY damage output in your party, I would be concerned. If your only (or primary) way of evaluating a character is their DpR, then the pregens are a failure. I would say most real characters are as well. But since we are playing a cooperative role-playing game with infinite party mix and out-of-combat encounters, my statement that all pregens function just fine stands. Even the most optimized PC has weaknesses. Is 1d8+5 or 1d10+3 bad? Not if its a readied action vs. a caster. Everything is circumstantial.
Don't buy into the hate!
While bob sure did post his opinion, I would like to point out that he is playing a pregen that doesn't currently exist
I'm looking at one perfectly legal incarnation of Damiel right now; for shame, he has a -1 to his will save and his extracts are truestrike and enlarge person. I just scrolled through another scenario where certain level 5 pregens are legal; some scenarios allow for atypical pregen characters.
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Oh, also, for ranged characters, he is recommending a character who can fire once per round (Lirianne), and a character who can't fire more than once every two rounds (harsk).
They are whatever at level 1, but at level 7 you are facing real monsters with real powers. 1d8+5 once a round and 1d10+3 every two rounds is not viable against these monsters
And if the game is only played like WoW or if they are the ONLY damage output in your party, I would be concerned. If your only (or primary) way of evaluating a character is their DpR, then the pregens are a failure. But since we are playing a cooperative role-playing game with infinite party mix and out-of-combat encounters, my statement that all pregens function just fine stands. Even the most optimized PC has weaknesses. Is 1d8+5 or 1d10+3 bad? Not if its a readied action vs. a caster. Everything is circumstantial.
Don't buy into the hate!
Or having someone in the group who can defeat stoneskin at range (ie.. Adamantine Bullets).
THAT literally saved the parties lives in one scenario where I found out my gunslinger wasn't high enough but hte 7th level gunslinger was.
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Level 7 Kyra is super useful. I played her through Deepmar to pretty decent effect. She has enough variety to be useful as more than just a healer, and the phylactery of positive channeling is just icing on the cake. She healed a stupid amount of damage ad I was never disappointed to be controlling her.
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Oh, so nothing is strong or not strong in pathfinder, all things are equal because maybe it has a niche use
I never said something was strong or not, I said the pregens work just fine. Anyone can list specific circumstances where a pregen will be lacking, but I could say the same for nearly every PC that ever sat at my table.
You miss the point. The pregens are not optimized, giving up a high level of specialization for more utility (in most cases). That means they are going to be less effective at pure activities like damage output, maximizing attack modifiers, etc., but that is just a portion of the game. If that is the only (or primary) way you evaluate PC "worthiness" than I shudder to think how many real characters have been subjected to "you suck." And under some circumstances, the pregens can outshine the real characters that may be over-specialized.
The bottom line is this, if *you* don't like the pregens and they don't fit *your* play-style, then don't play them. But, let's stop telling players they suck or are worthless. They don't/aren't.
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Level 7 Kyra is super useful
I would be careful not to oversell her. An optimized "real" healer PC can do a lot more healing, but I understand the sentiment. Seems most players don't want to be a healer because then they don't get to deliver the killing blow to the BBEG that seems to be soo sought after. But, sometimes, being the support/utility/healer PC is the "best" place to be. YMMV :-)
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Level 7 Kyra is super usefulI would be careful not to oversell her. An optimized "real" healer PC can do a lot more healing, but I understand the sentiment. Seems most players don't want to be a healer because then they don't get to deliver the killing blow to the BBEG that seems to be soo sought after. But, sometimes, being the support/utility/healer PC is the "best" place to be. YMMV :-)
True. However, she has access to all cleric spells and re-memorizes every morning. I played her in 5-02: The Wardstone Patrol (6-7) and my spell choice probably prevented a TPK. I've played her straight out of the box in scenarios that only last a day, too, and always found a way to be very relevant.
I like Kyra-7. A lot.
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I hope I didn't throw oil on the alchemist fire [bad pun intended]. I just know he's not in the list of pregens I have downloaded. I'm sure there are legal versions still out there.
I have tried to play a variety of characters. The two closest I've played to level 7 are my level 5 ranger and level 4 cleric.
My ranger uses a longbow, but has been switch-hitting in his current module due to a lack of melee warriors.
The cleric I play is a high AC battle cleric who lays down one or two buffs and then fights. His healing is a secondary function.
I'd like to try something new, but not something where class mechanics and level mechanics will niot allow me to make full use of the character.
I personally think Bob's right - the pregen's aren't worthless. But I also know that in untrained hands they aren't very useful (true of any PC). I know my Pcs and what they can do. I guess the best thing for me would be to study the sheets for pregens I'm interested in to get an understanding of their mechanics.
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Wait, aren't we talking about pregens? So why are you trying to downplay them compared to optimized healers? Of course an optimized anything is going to be better/more efficient than its pregen equivalent. I'm not saying she's better than a PC, but as far as the pregens go, Kyra is the most useful, in my opinion.
Edit: For clarification, this was in response to Bob's response to me.
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I shy away from evaluations like "most" or "least" useful in regards to the pregens. In the hands of a competent player any pregen can be just as effective as the "real" PCs at the table. Saying they are less effective than a fully optimized healer is true. I wouldn't consider that a downplay, just a statement of fact. Still doesn't take away from Kyra's overall effectiveness and anyone interested in playing a healer pregen should not have any worries about her.
I think Kyra gets a lotta love because healers seem to be less than desirable by players. Sure, there are some out there that love playing healers, but compared to damage dealers, blasters, glass-cannons, etc. they seem to be more rare. Which results in "play Kyra" being the standard response when you ask the rest at the table which pregen you should play.
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The scenario can have a lot do to with a character's effectiveness, pregen or not. My barbarian-9/rogue-2 with over 200 HP, an earthbreaker with power attack, etc. played in a scenario where he never attempted an attack roll and the only meaningful damage he took was self-inflicted. Sometimes, being optimized can bite you in the a$$. I would have been better off playing a pregen in that one.
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Well you have rogue levels, so how optimized can it be.
With 200+ hit points, DR5/-, a Str/Con belt, rage, power attack, and all the typical combat enhancing feats/rage powers I would say he's nearly as optimized as you can get. And it was a combat-heavy scenario. His problem was will saves, which could have been mitigated with less optimization and a more utility approach. But I digress...
This is not about anecdotes about "one time at bandcamp." My original objection was to the blanket idea that some pregens are worthless and others are less than worthless, which is not much of an endorsement to their playability. In the hands of a competent player, ALL the pregens function just fine, and given the right set of circumstances have been known to outshine real characters. While the "right" circumstances are by their nature, circumstantial, the same can be said of real characters as well. The point, there is more to this game than DpR and the pregens are fully-functional, adequately capable characters with a lot to offer. Don't like them? Fine, don't play them, but please stop telling other players they are worthless.
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FWIW, Damiel is available (and legal to play) from the 1st level module "Master of the Fallen Fortress".
True, and technically, he could be used in any circumstance since you can build a 1st level PC that looks exactly like him and/or rebuild at will up to 2nd level. Using the 4/7th level versions, if you still have them, would be different of course since they are no longer listed as "legal" and therefore would not qualify for the standard rules of applying a chronicle from a pregen to a real character.
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I shy away from evaluations like "most" or "least" useful in regards to the pregens. In the hands of a competent player any pregen can be just as effective as the "real" PCs at the table. Saying they are less effective than a fully optimized healer is true. I wouldn't consider that a downplay, just a statement of fact. Still doesn't take away from Kyra's overall effectiveness and anyone interested in playing a healer pregen should not have any worries about.
The problem I have with this is that this doesn't actually mean anything, it's such a broad statement that applies to any character, whether it is a pregen or a PC-built character. The fact is, for the average player, some pregens are going to be more effective than others. There are some pregens, like Kyra or Lem, that are going to be more useful in general situations more often. There might be times where the table might require a Merisiel or an Amiri, but when you set aside table make-up there are some pregens that are useful more often than others. They're less useful, but I do agree with you that calling the other pregens trash is wrong.
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The problem I have with this is that this doesn't actually mean anything, it's such a broad statement that applies to any character, whether it is a pregen or a PC-built character. The fact is, for the average player, some pregens are going to be more effective than others
That's exactly the point. With all the variables of player competence, scenario encounters, etc. a pregen is just as viable a character choice as any "real" character. You cannot predict what circumstances will occur during play so choosing a certain PC over another, pregen or not, is a cr@pshoot. Pick a skill-monkey for a combat-heavy scenario and it'll probably ineffective, pregen or not. Take your Cha-5 dwarven barbarian into a role-play heavy scenario, ditto. It doesn't matter if you're a pregen character or not. If you play enough, your data set of experiences will average out and pregens, like any character becomes less susceptible to unusual or extremely specific encounters, overall becoming a reasonable player choice.
a barbarian should have among the best saves if you are optimizing
A character cannot be the best at everything. To optimize in one area means you can't put those resources into improving something else. Every character, no matter how optimized has weaknesses, but I'm not going to argue the definition of optimization with you.
How you phrase your arguments is pretty telling about how much you have to reach in order to find positives about them.
I don't have to reach at all. The pregens are effective, albeit not optimized characters. I've seen a lot more "real" characters die or been ineffective at tables I've been at, relatively speaking, than pregens due to optimization or specialization, or whatever you want to call it.
I've made my point, agree with it or not. If *you* don't like the pregens, don't play them. Pregens are legal and are going to continue to be available options. They are not going to be rebuilt to make them more optimized (who gets to decide what that means?). It would be more productive to advise players, on a case-by-case, which pregen would be best for them and how they can maximize their enjoyment than bashing a integral part of organized play. That or organize your games better to mitigate the need for pregen play in the first place.
Enjoy the rest of the thread, I'm out...
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Every pregen isn't terrible; even Harsk. Take a look at his level 7 saves: the worst one is +8 (usually a +10 due to dwarf). His badger animal companion isn't the greatest, but if Harsk casts a barkskin on it (which he has prepped) it has a semi-decent AC, and it makes a great flanking buddy. Also, Harsk has rapid reload, so he CAN shoot every round. He also has 170gp, easily enough for him to pick up cold iron bolts, as well as silver blanching. I personally wouldn't choose him, but he's not nearly as bad as you make him out to be.
As for Lirianne, take a look at the Targeting deed. She may not do the most damage, but that deed is ridiculous. Disarming, or confusing, or knocking people prone with an attack roll that targets touch. And she has enough money to buy some alchemical cartridges, for extra shots when she knows she needs to make them.
Of the other pregens, I've seen Lini, Seelah and Valeros be ridiculously effective at level 7. Lini's animal companion is vicious, Seelah looks weak until you take note of the power attack feat, plus smite, plus lay on hands to keep her going, plus her good saves, and Valeros has enough attacks (and double slice!) to make short work of most foes.
Are pregens better than actual characters? Of course not! They aren't even equal to the average character. But they aren't worthless, nor even bad.
Need more melee...Amiri, Valeros, Hayato, even Reiko if played correctlyo.O
...why would you say this?
I had to look her up to come up with an answer, and yeah, she doesn't look too bad. In fact, she's kind of similar to a ninja/fighter I built.
Essentially, if she's played correctly, people will make use of her mirror image and invisibility that don't provoke. This'll help her move through threatened areas more easily and get off some of that sneak attack. Also, she's got 4d6 sneak attack, so if her party demonstrates competency, she'll have someone else with whom to flank. I couldn't find an actual ruling, which means nothing, but if she can sell off any of her gear, an oil of keen weapon would make her wakizashi brutal. The hat of disguise could afford one oil. That's not so bad.
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But I also know that in untrained hands they aren't very useful (true of any PC). I know my Pcs and what they can do. I guess the best thing for me would be to study the sheets for pregens I'm interested in to get an understanding of their mechanics.
We have a winnah!
Optimization, just off-hand, varies depending on whether you are planning on optimization for combat, interaction with NPCs, gaining all the background information available for a scenario, just for general competence, or even just for fun, and I am sure there are other forms of optimization available.
Edited because I forgot to count to 10 over someone's posts which I should have just marked as inappropriate.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I had to look her up to come up with an answer, and yeah, she doesn't look too bad. In fact, she's kind of similar to a ninja/fighter I built.If she was in sub-tier 5-6 or 6-7 maybe. Any higher and the encounters would mulch her 38 HP.
*cough*Elven Entanglement*cough*
Yeah, I'm glad we were able to talk the new guy out of playing Reiko in that one. Dying in the first encounter definitely isn't fun for anyone.
I couldn't find an actual ruling, which means nothing, but if she can sell off any of her gear, an oil of keen weapon would make her wakizashi brutal.Pregens can't sell gear. Also, what? You know that sneak attack dice don't multiply on a critical right?
I am going to ignore the post full of personal attacks and misrepresentations, hopefully a moderator will step in
I just did a quick search for pregen's abilities to sell gear, and only found the standard "to pay for their own resurrections" but didn't look further. Regardless, it's still an extended crit range on the weapon.
I am more than aware that sneak attack dice do not multiply. (I've a L8 frontliner who can either hit on a +9 for 1d4+4 or a +6 for 1d4+10 with a X4 crit weapon. Reiko does better than those numbers; at least she has a chance with sneak attack or a 10% more likely crit.) In a 10-11 game, she isn't much good, but in a 6-7/7-8 game, I don't see a stealth oriented character as a bad thing.
I'll assume the "post full of personal attacks" was not directed toward me.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I am going to ignore the post full of personal attacks and misrepresentations, hopefully a moderator will step in
You don't need to wait for a moderator to delete your posts; you could just walk away.