Sorry if this has been answered, but I haven't found it searching within the site or through google.
The normal range of color spray is a fifteen foot cone. If modified by the Reach Spell metamagic feat to 'medium range' (100ft) does the cone start 100 ft away and spread until 115 feet or does the cone start with me and spread until it reaches 100ft?
Honestly, either one would have been fine had I not already snapped up "superior Summoning" as my 3rd level feat. I'm guessing now that I'm into tier 3-4, this would have been the sweet spot to use a range enhanced color spray to incapacitate foes.
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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
I'm sorry but...
PRD wrote:
Reach Spell (Metamagic)
Your spells go farther than normal.
Benefit: You can alter...
Spells that do not have a range of touch, close, or medium do not benefit from this feat.
PRD wrote:
COLOR SPRAY
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (red, yellow, and blue powder or colored sand)
Range 15 ft.
Area cone-shaped burst
Duration instantaneous; see text
...
Color Spray does not have touch, close, or medium under the Range entry, so I'm pretty sure this doesn't work.
AFAIK you have to use Widen Spell instead.
Grayfen Starling wrote: Sorry if this has been answered, but I haven't found it searching within the site or through google.
The normal range of color spray is a fifteen foot cone. If modified by the Reach Spell metamagic feat to 'medium range' (100ft) does the cone start 100 ft away and spread until 115 feet or does the cone start with me and spread until it reaches 100ft?
Honestly, either one would have been fine had I not already snapped up "superior Summoning" as my 3rd level feat. I'm guessing now that I'm into tier 3-4, this would have been the sweet spot to use a range enhanced color spray to incapacitate foes.
I don't believe it would affect its range. I think you're looking for Widen Spell. For reach the range has to be defined as touch, close, medium, and long. Widen states it affects burst, emanation, or spread-shaped spell, of which Color Spray is one of them.
After looking at the PRD again, Reach specifically says that spells that don't have those range designations don't benefit from it.
Yeah, until you get Widen, you pretty much have to get up in the face of your enemies to affect a lot of them. That 15' cone is pretty small.
Yep, Widen Spell is what you are looking for.
I believe Rerednaw is correct. You cannot use reach on the spell. It's a burst, which eminates from your square. Widen Spell would increase the size of the cone from 15ft cone to a 30ft cone. Look at the feat Widen Spell, it was obviously intended for this type of spell where Reach spell is not.
I thought Color Spray is considered close range because close range is defined in the PRD as...
"Close: The spell reaches as far as 25 feet away from you. The maximum range increases by 5 feet for every two full caster levels."
Clearly 15 feet is within the described limit of close, too short for medium and obviously a longer distance than 'touch' range. Color Spray isn't affected by the 5 foot increase per 2 levels, but I don't think that is necessarily a disqualifying factor.
While the Reach Spell paragraph states: Spells that do not have a range of touch, close, or medium do not benefit from this feat. To me I simply interpret this as 'there is no category beyond long range' that a long range spell could be increased to.
Given what the Widen Spell feat achieves (and the relative difference in spell level needed to prepare color spray as same), I'm inclined to believe that Reach would merely displace the starting point of the spray rather than increase its overall scope (if in fact Color Spray is a legal target).
If Color Spray were a close range spell, it's range would be printed in the same format as every other close range spell. Specifically:
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Since that is not how its range is formatted, it is not a close range spell.
If the goal is to increase the AoE of Color Spray, I concede that Widen Spell is the appropriate feat to effect same. I think my argument for using the Reach Spell feat to displace the point of origin of the spell is valid.
Zhayne wrote: If Color Spray were a close range spell, it's range would be printed in the same format as every other close range spell. Specifically:
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Since that is not how its range is formatted, it is not a close range spell.
I disagree with that interpretation. The description of close range inherently includes spells with ranges expressed other than as quoted above based on their values falling within a particular range category. Color Spray is much like a three-legged dog, it won't meet the reasonable definition that all dogs have four legs, but it's still a dog. Color Spray is 15 feet, which one would reasonably qualify as within the limits of 'close range'.
Let's say Color Spray was expressed in such terms as you have described above. There would be problems, the area of effect would be too large for a level one spell that renders unconscious, blinds and stuns multiple creatures and because the point of origin of the spray is the Wizard's hand it would lead players to presume that the cone continues to expand as the range increases with every two wizard levels.
The definition of close range reads "The spell reaches as far as 25 feet away from you". 'As far as' is just as good as "no farther than". Color Spray would be described as close range because: it's longer range than touch and closer range than medium. Fifteen feet is certainly no farther than (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels).
If the point of origin of a touch spell (a wizard's hand) can be displaced with Reach Spell, then why not a spray? The area of effect is merely displaced and not expanded as per "Widen Spell". That is the point of the feat after all.
Grayfen Starling wrote: If the goal is to increase the AoE of Color Spray, I concede that Widen Spell is the appropriate feat to effect same. I think my argument for using the Reach Spell feat to displace the point of origin of the spell is valid.
Zhayne wrote: If Color Spray were a close range spell, it's range would be printed in the same format as every other close range spell. Specifically:
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Since that is not how its range is formatted, it is not a close range spell.
I disagree with that interpretation. The description of close range inherently includes spells with ranges expressed other than as quoted above based on their values falling within a particular range category. Color Spray is much like a three-legged dog, it won't meet the reasonable definition that all dogs have four legs, but it's still a dog. Color Spray is 15 feet, which one would reasonably qualify as within the limits of 'close range'.
Let's say Color Spray was expressed in such terms as you have described above. There would be problems, the area of effect would be too large for a level one spell that renders unconscious, blinds and stuns multiple creatures and because the point of origin of the spray is the Wizard's hand it would lead players to presume that the cone continues to expand as the range increases with every two wizard levels.
The definition of close range reads "The spell reaches as far as 25 feet away from you". 'As far as' is just as good as "no farther than". Color Spray would be described as close range because: it's longer range than touch and closer range than medium. Fifteen feet is certainly no farther than (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels).
If the point of origin of a touch spell (a wizard's hand) can be displaced with Reach Spell, then why not a spray? The area of effect is merely displaced and not expanded as per "Widen Spell". That is the point of the feat after all.
The problem with this is that you're trying to use Reach Spell to change the point of origin for the spell. Reach Spell does not change the point or origin. It only affects the range the spell can be used at. The point of origin is the same.
The range of 15ft in the spell description is only listed to indentify the area of the cone.
Indeed, color spray will always originate from you, it is a burst. Thats how it function. Reach allows you to cast spells at a longer range than normal, but doesn't cause the spell to function markedly different. Casting a fireball at 400 feet versus 800 ft is still essentially the same. Turning a burst spell which emanates from you into a spell which emanates from a square 20ft away from you is very different. The rules just simply don't allow for this, because the spell would no longer be a burst. If the spell doesn't have the words touch, close, or medium included in the range description it just doesn't function with the spell.
*Note, I know fireball technically doesn't benefit because it is a long range spell and not valid either, but it was the best example I could think of off the top of my head.
Grayfen Starling wrote: If the goal is to increase the AoE of Color Spray, I concede that Widen Spell is the appropriate feat to effect same. I think my argument for using the Reach Spell feat to displace the point of origin of the spell is valid.
Zhayne wrote: If Color Spray were a close range spell, it's range would be printed in the same format as every other close range spell. Specifically:
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Since that is not how its range is formatted, it is not a close range spell.
I disagree with that interpretation. The description of close range inherently includes spells with ranges expressed other than as quoted above based on their values falling within a particular range category. Color Spray is much like a three-legged dog, it won't meet the reasonable definition that all dogs have four legs, but it's still a dog. Color Spray is 15 feet, which one would reasonably qualify as within the limits of 'close range'.
Let's say Color Spray was expressed in such terms as you have described above. There would be problems, the area of effect would be too large for a level one spell that renders unconscious, blinds and stuns multiple creatures and because the point of origin of the spray is the Wizard's hand it would lead players to presume that the cone continues to expand as the range increases with every two wizard levels.
The definition of close range reads "The spell reaches as far as 25 feet away from you". 'As far as' is just as good as "no farther than". Color Spray would be described as close range because: it's longer range than touch and closer range than medium. Fifteen feet is certainly no farther than (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels).
If the point of origin of a touch spell (a wizard's hand) can be displaced with Reach Spell, then why not a spray? The area of effect is merely displaced and not expanded as per "Widen Spell". That is the point of the feat after all.
Color Spray does not say 'Range: Close'. Therefore, it is not a Range: Close spell. It doesn't get any simpler than that.
Enlarge should work with Color Spray though.
ramedlaw wrote: Enlarge should work with Color Spray though.
No, Enlarge Spell doubles range. Color Spray has a range of 0. What it has is an area of effect, and to change that, you need Widen Spell.
Widen Spell will increase the area of a burst, but it will not increase the spell's range. Certain bursts (Color Spray or Lightning Bolt, for example) have a definite range, so even if you Widen them, it won't actually have any effect. IMO, Widen Spell was intended to work on Color Spray so it would make a good house rule.
Enlarge Spell only works on spells with a range of Close, Medium, or Long. Color Spray has a Range of 15ft. so it wouldn't work.
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