Telshad
|
So I'm playing in a rather large Pathfinder game with some friends(large as in ten people including myself when we're together). When I made my character I picked an Inquisitor as my class in part for the awesome image of playing a Solomon Kane/Witcher sort of character. Yet in play I find myself not being as iconic or enjoyable as I thought. I have less spells, and less breadth of spells, than the Sorcerer/Witch, the Cleric, the Oracle, and find that me having spells is almost useless. I have a decent stealth but I'm totally out of depth it seems when it comes to the two rogues. Heck, I can't even shine when it comes to melee combat because we have two cavaliers, and one of the rogue made most of her classes Barbarian. I don't shine skill wise one because of the rogues and their derth of skills, as well as the bard. So in a means of finding a new niche I've found my eye on the Gunslinger and Alchemist. Since the group lacks range it seems, and either one would allow me to really show them that my character is useful.
To the mechanical stuff this is how my character is built as a lvl 7, since I'm probably gonna spend my eighth on the other class.
Attributes:
Str:14, Dex:20, Con:15, Int:17, Wis:18, Cha:18
Saves: Fort:9, Reflex:7, Will:9
Ac:20, Init:13
Skills:(Total score)
Bluff:10, Climb:8, Diplomacy:20, Disguise:10, Heal:9, Intimidate:26, Knowledge(arc):9, Knowledge(Dungeoneering):9, Knowledge(Nature)9, Knowledge(Planes):9, Knowledge(Religion):15, Perception:15, Profession Sailor(8), Sense Motive:11, Stealth:16
Feats: Toughness, Lookout, Weapon Finesse, Persuasive, Stealth Synergy, Improved Initiative
So that's what my character is like. So what do you guys think, Alchemist or Gunslinger(or any other class you might deem appropriate and fit within the sort of hunting down evil theme I want).
| AbsolutGrndZer0 |
Well, I would like to know your actual spells and inquisitor powers and such. Also, your domain choice. OR even better, do you have an actual Inquisition from Ultimate Magic, that would be even better.
Now, as for what you have said... honestly I think the biggest problem is that you have ten players. That pretty much means that the more core classes like the fighter, wizard, cleric and rogue are going to shine, along with the cavaliers and then throw in the barbarian and oracle and boom, they can do pretty much everything why do they even need you?
Maybe someone with more experience in trying to run tabletop games with live action number of players can give you better advice, but really I am just thinking that with that large of a party an inquisitor is pretty much worthless and honestly so is almost anything else you could make... because they have everything. In abundance.
Bigdaddyjug
|
Take level 8 in musket master gunslinger, get yourself a Bane Baldric, and go to town. Make sure you have all of the requisite ranged feats: Point-blank Shot, Precise Shot, Fapid Shot, Deadly Aim, and others. Until your 3rd level of musket master, you'll only get 1 attack per round because of reloading rules, but you'll still be doing pretty good damage. And once you get a 5th level of musket master you'll be the top damage dealer in the party.
Telshad
|
I choose the Immolator Archetype, so my domain is Fire.
1st Level Spells:
Touch of Combustion
Ear Piercing Scream
Detect Undead
Cure Light Wounds
Shiled of Faith
2nd Level
Death Candle
Ghostbane Dirge
See Invisibility
Hold Person
3rd Level
Searing Light
Righteous Vigor
Daybreak Arrow
I believe I can be useful, because my skills aren't bad, it's just that I get sidelined often and I'm looking for a way to really carve my own place.
Reynard_the_fox
|
I believe your problem has 2 parts:
1) Inquisitors are great at doing a little bit of everything. In a small party, they can be a skill monkey AND back up the Cleric in divine spellcasting, for example. But in a game that huge, you really, really want to be highly specialized to get noticed at all.
2) You're playing a weapon finesse build with no significant sources of damage except Bane, and no extra attacks.
How does your GM feel about retraining feats? Archer inquisitors are quite excellent, as adding Bane damage to a bunch of arrows is really, really nice. If you could retrain to get Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, and Deadly Aim instead of some of your current feats, a lot of your problems would go away.
Failing that, there are still several options to go down. First, you could get Power Attack or Piranha Strike to boost your damage a bit. Second, you could start taking Skill Focus feats to make you REALLY, REALLY good at the things you're good at - Perception, Sense Motive, and Intimidate are all good choices. In fact, nabbing Power Attack and then Cornugon Smash could be fun, or you could take Skill Focus and then learn the spell Blistering Invective.
Also, I can't help but note you have crazy high scores in all the mental scores. Taking two levels of Paladin could really help - you'd get big bonuses on all saves, and start getting Smite damage & DR piercing. Sadly, even while smiting, a charging cavalier will do more damage than you.
Alternately, you could look at Prestige classes. Shadowdancer or Duelist could be good for this character. Sadly, there's really no way to suddenly have your character stand out - like I said before, it's all about specialization in such a big group, and they've all been at it from level 1. Good luck though!
Telshad
|
I mean, my extra damage largely came from an enchanted Scimitar, and a class ability so I'm dealing both Frost and Fire damage. I also used my Judgments and Bane rather liberally, my only issue comes from the fact that we haven't had lots of combat. When we have the cavaliers have always had the room to charge and stuff. I would take two levels of paladin, I mean I considered Paladin, the only issue is that I would then have to be Lawful Good. Which kind of grains on the idea of Inquisitor being someone who gets that special license to do what needs to be done when it comes to working for their god.
I probably will ask my DM if I can retrain some feats, but out of my feats two are Teamwork feats I got for free so I'll see if she'll let me change those, out of the ones that aren't I don't know which to get rid of. Persuasive, which I just noticed would give me a Diplomacy of 24 and Intimidate of 30, helps me be so good at those. Weapon Finesse lets me focus on my Dex, and Toughness gives me that extra HP I may not exactly need(I don't get hit often, go figure) but would probably find helpful(my HP at the moment is 44, but I may be doing the math wrong).
| ekibus |
Wow those stats are insane. Did you ever debate on just switching up the inquisitor a tad, I played in a campaign a ranged Inquisitor that was pretty darn nasty. I went with the feather domain for added perception and a animal companion (which I took boon companion at lvl 5) Followed by point blank, precise and rapid. Honestly the only person who came close to me was the ranger. I would usually spend a level 1 slot on divine favor (+3 hit and damage) then with rapid shot I was easily at +10 to hit and +5 damage then if i used bane it really hurt them
Reynard_the_fox
|
Oh yeah! If you're using a scimitar, you should DEFINITELY take Dervish Dance asap. It will give you Dex to damage, which will actually pull you up to respectable levels of damage, especially if you take Power Attack.
Now that you mention, you're definitely low on HP. You should have:
7*con mod = 14
7*toughness = 7
7*favored class bonus? = 7
8 for first level hit die
~4.5 for subsequent hd*6 = 27
So you should have somewhere around 63, but no less than 50 if you used your favored class on skills and rolled low.
Telshad
|
Oh heck, I'm really low then. So might as well get this out of the way, with a Con mod of 3, a d8 for Inquisitor hit die(8 for the first level and then sixes for the rest), plus toughness, and the favored class on health, what do you think it'd be?
Just checked out Dervish Dance, yeah I do need it, I can just relocate some skills so I can take the Perform(Dance) two ranks I need. My issue is just what feats I ask to retrain.
But as I find myself shifting to probably working on getting Musket Master(we need range people, and I can probably definitely find my worth there), would their be any reason to maybe look at Alchemist?
Since we're here, depending on where I go, what kind of Mythic Path might you guys recommend? My DM just brought up taking it and I find that none of the paths are really drawing me.
Reynard_the_fox
|
You'd have:
8 +6*6 = 44 from hit dice
3*7 = 21 from con
1*7 = 7 from toughness
1*7 = 7 for favored class
=79. Pretty beefy for a d8 class!
As for alchemist: it's a cool class, no doubt, but it won't really solve any of your problems. You'd get a Mutagen (nice!), some first-level extracts (eh), 4 bombs dealing 1d6+3 (eh), Brew Potion (neat), and Throw Anything (eh).
Musket Master could indeed be a cool path to go down. Just start taking levels in Gunslinger, and ask about that retraining. Can't help you on mythic, I'm afraid, but I'm pretty sure a 10-man Mythic adventure would basically turn into Guren Lagann pretty fast.
Telshad
|
Nothing wrong with Gurren Lagann ;)
But yeah, I was thinking Alchemist because a friend threw that idea into the ring as well since bombs would give us a ranged attacker, maybe a shorter range than Gunslinger but splash damage is delicious. As well as help me in the area of having a greater breadth of spells since the Inquisitor spell list is so limited especially since we don't even get Domain spells(which in my opinion is super weird, I mean, don't Paladins get domain spells).
But yeah, I'm in things for the long run, like in the long run a Gunslinger would have me, at range, probably pinging things pretty nicely. So I can rely on my gun rather than spells for things, and have my spells augment my own little realm of violence. While in the long run an Alchemist would've given me that wider spell breadth, so I could in theory end up with spells as varied as our Sorcerer/Witch(he just took his first level in Witch). Though I don't completely understand which Sorc/Wiz spells I can count as Formula capable.
| Blave |
No offense meant, but that's a poorly built character. I'm speaking purely optimization here, so if you have RP-reasons for the decisions, feel free to ignore me.
First of all, the Immolator Archetpye seems awfully weak. Getting flaming (+1d6 fire damage) instead of bane (+2 attack, +2d6+2 untyped damage)? The best thing about the inquisitor is his ability to stack up damage sources that don't care about resistance (Judgement, Bane, Divine Favor, Precise Strike, Power Attack and so on) and substituting his biggest damage boost with just 1d6 (and fire damage of all thing) is just wrong.
My advice would require a serious re-build of the character. If your GM allows it, drop the archetype, switch your feats to ranged combat (point blank, precise, deadly, rapid), switch your spells to personal buffs like divine favor (again: that's the best thing about the inquisitor and casting those yourself is not redundant with the other divine casters) and utility spells, get a composite longbow and start killing stuff. Also, try getting another domain if possible. Travel is great for an archer and if you want/need more party face abilities, try the trade subdomain.
Inquisitors are good at so many things. If you feel inferior at everything, something's definitly wrong.
Also, don't multi-class. You'll just weaken your inquisitor ablities even more and it will be at least another 5 levels of feeling useless before the new class starts being meaningful.
Telshad
|
Yeah, I've never been a big optimizer when it comes to stuff like Pathfinder. I can tell this character is underpowered, but a full rebuild will probably not be possible(though GM has allowed me to still use Bane). I'm gonna speak to her in person about a lot of what you guys are saying, especially about dropping the archetype so I can regain Bane. Since my goddess is Sarenrae I won't have access to Travel, and I again I don't know how much she'll let me retcon. Mainly because we're two levels in(started at 6 now going to 8), and the plot is starting to ramp up. So it's like, I may not have noticed completely that I was almost useless up to now, but it doesn't change the fact that I missed the time to really change things up. But I do get what you all are saying.
Though I don't think Gunslinger would be that bad starting out, since a Gun alone means I don't need to hit things at the same AC as party members, and my Dex is already up the wazoo.
| Blave |
If you can get rid of the archetype and change your domain but not your diety, Sarenrae can grant the Heroism domain, which is pretty good.
I'm not very familiar with the Gunslinger as all my groups play with core+APG only but even for hitting only touch AC your build is not too good. You don't have deadly aim, precise shot or anyting else that makes ranged combat the king of DPR. I wouldn't go for gunslinger unless you can retrain your feats and if you can, there's really no reason to multiclass at all because you can just as well use a longbow, which would also make bane even better thanks to manyshot.
If you can't rebuild at all, I'd proablby stick with Reynard's idea and go with dervish dance. And don't forget to get power attack, too. Also switch your teamwork feats to more melee focused ones like precise strike and outflank. Then get a few combat buffs (like divine favor/power and heroism). Next level you can also use second Judgement to get Justice and Desruction running at the same time. That with bane and a buff or two should still make you a capable melee fighter.
Telshad
|
Okay. If I can retrain my feats I could at least get Point Blank and Precise Shot. It wouldn't make me the best if there were other ranged people, but the thing is, there really aren't any other ranged people. So in the end I would win out because I'd have a longer range increment than the rest of the party, hitting touch helps, I have a high Dex, I'm thinking of getting a Far Reach Sight on the rifle. But if nothing else, thank you guys for helping me find something might help me. My next feat will definitely be Dervish Dance(barring I can get anything else). I'll also look into the changing of my Domain.
| Mysterious Stranger |
No offense but this is one of the worst builds I have seen on an inquisitor. Your feats are all over the board. You really need to pick a focus and stick with it. Really the only thing that is going to help is a total rewrite of the character. You could go one of two ways. The first is to focus on melee damage, or you could focus on ranged in either case drop the archetype. All your feats should be changed as none of them are doing you much good.
For melee keep weapon finesse and pick up dervish dance. Take power attack and cornugun smash as your other feats. This allows you to not only do a lot more damage but to also get to use intimidate to demoralize him for free. With the inquisitors intimidate you will almost always succeed so they will be -2 on all attacks, saves and skill rolls.
Since you said you GM is allowing advanced firearms you could drop your domain and go with the black powder inquisition. Change your feats to point blank shot, rapid shot, and rapid reload. For your last feat you could go either armature gunslinger to get a grit pool, or go with improved monster lore. Improved monster lore is an often overlooked feat for inquisitors. It allows you to identify monsters better than a bard. You get the same level bonus as a bard and two stats to add to the roll instead of one. From the looks of it you put a decent amount of skill points into knowledge’s. Improved monster lore would allow you to put a single point in each of them and with your stats end up with a +15 to identify monsters.
For spells change go with the following
1st level: Cure Light wounds, Divine Favor, Expeditious Retreat, Protection from Evil, and True strike
2nd level: Blistering Invective, Detect Thoughts, Invisibility, and hold Person
3rd level Heroism, and Searing Light, and Nondetection.
Divine Favor gives a luck bonus, Heroism gives a morale bonus and your judgments give a sacred bonus. This means they all stack. Heroism Lasts over an hour and also affects skill including knowledge skills so is well worth taking. Invisibility combined with Expeditious retreat means you will be better at stealth than a rogue. You get a +20 bonus for invisibility, and can affectively move at full speed while still staying hidden. Nondetection also means you do are difficult to locate by magical means which is something the rogue just cannot do.
All of this can be done under the retraining rules in ultimate campaign.
Telshad
|
So looking at the retraining rules I'm thinking of usung the three month (in game) downtime. I'm going to ask to retrain my seventh level of Inquisitor abd use this new level to take two levels in gunslinger. I'm switching my domain to Heroism. I'm going to retrain some featsbsoI can take Point Blank anf Precise Shot (which feats are unknown since I need Weapon Finesse for the Scimitar abd Persuasive for my high Intimidate score. No Iidea if I should retrain Toughness. I'll be retraining my spells. I don't know if I could retrain the Teamwork feats since I have ti have them for Inquisitor.
| Blave |
An Inquisitor can even change his most recently gotten teamwork feat as part of the class feature so you'd need to retrain only one of them.
I still think going gunslinger is a bad idea, even more so if you change your domain to something actually useful. I've never done the math on firearms but I seriously doubt you'll get more damage out of them than with a composite longbow full attack. I think firearms work ok-ish if you focus on them completely but for an inquisitor, the bow seems to be superior in so many ways. And not targeting touch AC should harldy be a problem. With all his buffs an inquisitor is easily able to hit everything they want.
If you want a firearms badly, go for it. If you just want it because you're concerned with hitting stuff: Don't be. Inquisitor's have a ridiculous number of stacking buffs so hitting the regular AC of an enemy is REALLY easy.
Telshad
|
I like the gunslinger for thematic reasons, mechnically its not bad because it's better than the Gun Powder Inquisition in my opinion. I think I'm going to change Improved Initiative, Lookout, and Stealth Synergy for Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and some other ranged feat or take Dervish Dance. I am definiteky aware of Inquisitor buffa, I guess I just want to be equipped to hit well even without buffs. Also, I'd have to shift around stats, which I don't believe I can do with retraining, so I can damage well with the composite longbow.
| Dave Justus |
Gunslinger has interesting flavor. But if you want damage you will do a lot more with an archer inquisitor for quite a while. Bane and judgement applies to every arrow you shoot. An eighth level inquisitor that gets rapid shot and many shot can but 4 arrows down range every turn.
Basically, your character is suffering from lack of focus. You are trying to do everything an inquisitor can do, and therefore you are mediocre at all of them. Multiclassing will increase this problem, not solve it.
That said, the game is for having fun, and if you like a certain feel go ahead with it, but since your fun seems to be suffering because you don't feel effective in combat, you should probably not continue down a path that will keep you from being effective in combat.
Telshad
|
So say I just build myself around being a ranged Inquisitor, keep the Persuasive feat so I can have enough of a boost to my Intimadate. Retrain my two teamwork feats, Improved Initiative so I can take Rapid Shot along with Precise and Point Blank. I'm not feeling too heavy on dropping Weapon Finesse because I put alot into this enchanted scimitar of mine, and can't really get rid of it for a better gun. Plus, doesn't hurt to have a decent sword incase enemies get too close. Don't retrain my seventh level so I can get a Bane Baldric. With Rapid shot I'd be able to shoot twice each turn?
I just really don't want archer Inquisitor, because I don't have the Strength for it, and I just don't like the idea of my Inquisitor with the bow. But yeah, from what you guys have said this is kind of the plan I want to go. Along with retraining spells, and changing my domain.
| Dave Justus |
If you love intimidate (and all inquisitors should) perhaps you should take a look at Dazzling Display.
To do this you would only need to get is weapon focus and that feat, then every round rather than doing damage you would make a display, giving basically a -2 to all the bad guys for just about everything. This won't give you DPR, but it is something unique you can do that will probably help out your party more than just about anything else.
Some people won't enjoy playing a tactic like this, but it is actually pretty effective, and if you want a niche where you are the man, this would be a good one.
Telshad
|
I guess it's because I want to focus on stats I already have at a high score, which is my Wisdom(which will apply to both my Grit pool as a Gunslinger, and making the DCs for my spells much higher), and my Dex(my to hit with a gun and a scimitar). Especially because then it means I don't have to work on building up three different stats(Str for dmg, Dex for to hit, and Wisdom for class abilities) than just two.
This isn't too say I don't like archers, but for my Inquisitor I don't see archery as fitting the concept. Since with her I'm leaning towards more Solomon Kane sort of feel for a reference.
Bigdaddyjug
|
Archery damage comes from the static bonuses you add, not from one of your ability scores. Sure, you can get a masterwork composite longbow (str +2) and add 2 damage to every one of your shots, but Deadly Aim adds 2 damage to every shot as soon as you get it, and it scales with level. At level 6 it adds 4 damage, at level 11 it adds 6 damage, and at level 16 it adds 8 damage. Plus you can use your Judgement of Destruction to add scaling, static damage bonuses to each of your attacks. And don't forget Bane. If you are level 7 with a Bane Baldric (and why wouldn't you be?), you add 4d6 damage to each of your attacks as long as someone in your group was able to identify the creature you are attacking.
As far as using Bane wisely goes, make sure to save the rounds of Bane use for when you can make full attacks so. This becomes even more important at level 8 when you get your first iterative and can fire off 3 arrows in 1 round (2 from Rapid Shot and 1 from the iterative), and even more so at level 9 when you should be taking Manyshot which means 4 arrows per round.
If you're going to go the archery route, I would ask your DM if you can just do a complete rebuild of your feats and focus on archery. Inquisitors do not make good switch hitters because they don't have the feats for it. The feats you should have at level 7 are: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow), and Deadly Aim. For your teamwork feats, take Lookout and Enfilading Fire. Pick up a masterwork composite longbow (Str +2) and start adding magical enhancements to it ASAP. You may want to consider Adaptive to it and buying potions of bull's strength to drink before big fights as this will add 2 damage to each of your attacks, or pick up a wand of it that a friendly arcane caster can use on you before each combat.
| ekibus |
There is always a swashbuckler in beta :) I feel ya for the Soloman Kane idea, but the gun might not be the best route. I assume you are going with the musket? You can only hit the touch ac within your first range increment (so 30ft?) You also should go all the way to lvl 5 so you can get your dex as added damage (but you will lose a lot with the Inquisitor.) To reload after your single shot you need a hand free (say good bye to the scimitar) Also it is a standard action to reload. You could of course take rapid reload to reduce the time and perhaps quick draw, but I'm sure you are kind of feat starved. Oh and probably ditch that stealth, the moment you fire that gun all the mobs in the dungeon probably heard the boom. I was in a group in which the gunslinger drew the attention of all the mobs in the surrounding rooms.The bow in my humble opinion is far superior to the gun (I know ironic)
| EvilMinion |
Persuasive seems a waste of a feat.
Really, you have more then enough intimidate without it.
You can't train out your bonus teamwork feats for non-teamwork feats... Lookout is good, Stealth Synergy seems a waste, but mileage varies on use.
(Personally, I loved Shake It Off and Escape Route... but I wasn't stealthing around much)
I agree with those suggesting a ranged inquisitor (they do get all the nifty ranged weapon proficiencies) but that will require you train out all your non-teamwork feats.
Oh, and get Divine Favor on your spell list!
Telshad
|
Ekibus, I get ya. I just really don't like bow, but I'm going rifle(my DM is cool with advanced guns), and I'm picking up a Far Reach Sight so I hit touch AC regardless of range. I'll be fine with not being able to go rifle and sword at once. It's more like, I have the sword, can't get rid of it, and you know, if I'm ever in a scenario where the gun isn't useful then I have a sword to fall back on. If I'm able to squeeze in the sight and the Bane Baldric I'll be taking a break from Inquisitor levels and just going straight through gunslinger.
| Blave |
Looking at the previous comments, it looks like you were unaware of Dervish Dance or at least not going to pick it up anytime soon. If I may ask: If you fight with a scimitar and don't go for Dervish Dance immediately, why the weapon finesse? A Scimitar can't be wielded with finesse wtithout DD. Do you have some obscure enchantment or aility I'm not aware of that makes that work?
Also, EvilMinion is correct. Persuasive is a wasted feat. With your charisma and the bonus from stern gaze, your intimidate bonus is more than enough. You find your combat abilities lacking, so retrain it for something useful like deadly aim.
Oh, and here's my last efford to convince you to use a bow ;)
I don't know Solomon Kane so I don't know what feel your are going for exactly. But I don't see how a weapon determines the feel of a character. I can play a character that feels like Han Solo in Pathfinder without having a Blaster Pistol. In fact, I doubt combat is the right time to worry about the feel of your character. That's more for social situations. And during those, it usually doesn't matter which kind of weapon is strapped to your back.
And don't worry about your strenght. 14 is plenty for an archer. You don't need to increase it any further. Just stick with Dex + Wis.
Also, you say you want to be effective even without buffs. That's fine and all, but with your current firearm plan you will do like 1d10 damage per shot for the next 5 levels if you are unbuffed. Even with 3 attacks (level 8 + rapid shot) that's laughable at your level. You NEED buffs to be effective and luckily that's what the inquisitor does best. And if you're going to buff, you might as well use a bow to get more attacks (Manyshot) and more damage per hit (1d8+2 instead of 1d10).
Using a far-reaching sight to hit touch at any range is nice but it limits you to a single attack per round, reducing your damage even more.
Last point: Have you looked at the price of a rifle? It's 5000 gp! Not to mention the cost of ammunition. You can easily get a +1 adaptive composite longbow and an efficient quiver for that much.
Ok, that's it. I don't think I can come up with more reasons to not go Gunslinger. If that still doesn't convince you, go for it. :)
| Blave |
I don't think I'm not gonna go Gunslinger
Well, it's your call. But when you don't deal any damage for the next 5 levels and rely on your buffs do actually do SOMETHING on combat, think about how much more awesome you would be if you had even more and better buffs (i.e. Inquisitor levels) and a bow with more arrows per round. :P
Just kidding. If you don't want a TRUELY awesome character, have fun with your mildy-more-powerful-than-before Inquisitor/Gunslinger ;)