So i had a question about when sneak atack applies. as far as i can tell, you can make a sneak attack anytime the target is flat-footed, anytime the rogue is flanking the target, or anytime the target is denied dex to ac. Say my rogue has a wand of something like magic missile, and the wizad has cast invisibility on the rogue. If the rogue is scouting ahead invisibly, and sees a guard, and decides to take him out quiet-like. He pulls out his wand and casts magic missile. That gets the sneak attack dice, right? And it breaks invisibility? what about a wand of fireball, or any other spell for that matter? If it's a wand that lets him get two missiles and there are two guards, does he get sneak attack against both since he's invisible? what if it's scorching ray?
I believe the spell must have an attack roll for sneak attack to apply. Or be a weapon of some sort. I.E You can take weapon focus ray or touch and those you can definitely sneak attack with.
An attack roll is needed in order to use sneak attack.
*snip*
a wand of scorching ray would work if in range.
If shooting both(with a wand of scorching ray high enough for 2 rays).. I think both get sneak hit..
(if you aimed both at one person that's a big argument on the forums but most people err on the side of only one bonus as the hits are all instant)
No attack roll, no SA.
You need a weapon (or in the case of a ray spell a weapon-like spell) to get sneak attack.
Effectively this is just saying that to get precision damage, you need something you can aim. And if there is no attack roll, then you aren't aiming (hence no chance for crits)
Ranged Attacks, including spells, can get sneak attack so long as you're within 30 feet. If it's a spell, it doesn't matter if it's an actual spell, a scroll, a wand, a wondrous item, a SLA or anything else. This is true for any Rogue.
Arcane Tricksters have a special ability (Surprise Spell) that lets them add sneak attack to spells which ordinarily wouldn't allow it (like Magic Missile or Fireball). Outside of that sort of special ability, you have to make an attack roll in order for sneak attack to apply. No attack roll, no sneak attack.
Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.
Note that it says "any spell that deals damage". If any Rogue could deal sneak attack damage on any spell that dealt damage, that wording would be unnecessary. Ordinarily you have to make an attack roll.
Again no wording that proves you right. Magic missile is an attack, and thus breaks invisibility. It should get sneak attack, because sneak attack never says that you need an attack roll. Surprise spells just lets you use sneak attack on spells that aren't attacks, like aoe spells (fireball, flaming sphere, lightning bolt, etc.)No attack roll, no SA.
You need a weapon (or in the case of a ray spell a weapon-like spell) to get sneak attack.
Effectively this is just saying that to get precision damage, you need something you can aim. And if there is no attack roll, then you aren't aiming (hence no chance for crits)
If you're curious as to the origin of the PF rule, it is explained in a 3.5 post here.
EDIT: Also, note that the "attack" used in Invisibility is not necessarily the same as the "attack" used in the sneak attack description or the Attack action. The Invisibility spell specifically describes things that count as "attacks", but only for the purposes of breaking invisibility: "For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe." Ordinarily, casting a spell like Fireball or Magic Missile is not an "Attack", in so far as the Attack Action is concerned.
Spells generally aren't "Attacks" unless they specify that you make some sort of attack roll. See the Cast a Spell entry, which discusses touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. Those are the spells which count as "attacks" because they actually require you to make an attack roll as a part of the spell.
3.5 isnt pathfinder, i thought
edit: and that says unofficial right at the top
You can keep arguing this question all you want. You aren't correct on this one.
To count as an "attack" for sneak attack purposes, barring explicit abilities which state otherwise, you must make an attack roll.
Attacks for the purpose of breaking invisibility include things that are not attacks for the purposes of making an attack as a part of an Attack Action.
3.5 isnt pathfinder, i thought
edit: and that says unofficial right at the top
In regards to a rule about flanking.
It says, "Let's wrap up All About Sneak Attacks with a look at volley type attacks, weapons and armor, spells, and a totally unofficial rule regarding flanking."
You may have missed my edit above. I posted that after you replied, I think.
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You say im wrong and dont prove yourself right. Nothing says that magic missile isnt an attack, and nothing says that you have to have an attack roll to get sneak attack damage. Attack is never actually defined, unless your looking at the attack standard action, in which case spells would never count. But some spells require attack rolls, and so are attacks, you say. Why is that the deciding factor? Why isnt magic missile an attack? I dont see why my definition is wrong when you haven't provided a reason why yours is right.
Friend, everyone in this thread disagrees with you. Take a look at the Arcane Tricksters capstone. The wording implies that it isn't the norm for non-attack roll spells to get sneak attack.
An attack is that thing you do that requires an attack roll. The two are inseparable. There are cases where the roll is assumed to automatically succeed, such as coup de grace. There are also cases where the definition of "attack" broadens to include other actions; these cases are explicitly stated and bound only to the area of rules in question.
You can't sneak attack a magic missile, just like you can't Deadly Aim it, Two-Weapon Fight with it, take Weapon Specialization with it, or substitute a combat maneuver for it (as an archer). It isn't an attack. The invisibility spell broadens its definition of attack to include such spells, but that broader definition stops at the beginning and end of the spell description.
Question asked, question answered. Play it otherwise if you like.
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Magic missile is an attack.
Because it has no attack roll it lacks the precision to target vital areas etc.
the capstone allows arcane tricksters to even sneak attack with inexact spells!
There now you have a rational logical reason as to why it doesn't work.
Arcane Trickster: How does the Surprise Spells class feature work with spells like magic missile and fireball?
The Surprise Spells class feature allows the Arcane Trickster to add his sneak attack dice to spells that deal damage that target flat-footed foes. This damage is only applied once per spell. In the case of fireball this means it affects all targets in the area, with each getting a save to halve the damage (including the sneak attack damage). In the case of magic missile, the extra damage is only added once to one missile, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.—Jason Bulmahn, 05/31/11
Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet
Ranged Attacks: With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon's maximum range and in line of sight. The maximum range for a thrown weapon is five range increments. For projectile weapons, it is 10 range increments. Some ranged weapons have shorter maximum ranges, as specified in their descriptions.
3.5 isnt pathfinder, i thought
edit: and that says unofficial right at the top
It is not but the core rules generally work the same way, and they have the same wording.
Now if you are going to argue that the same words now have a different meaning the burden of proof is on you, and you would also have to explain what is the purpose of the arcane trickster class's ability if anyone can do it.
Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.
Now tell me why does this exist if anyone can do it.
One problem with the game is that certain terms like "attack" and "level" are used for various things. After playing for a while it will become clear what they mean with each use, but it not clear up front.
"The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot."
Because of this, you cannot sneak attack a target that is immune to crits. And the reverse is also true... you cannot sneak attack a target using an attack that can't crit.
You say im wrong and dont prove yourself right. Nothing says that magic missile isnt an attack, and nothing says that you have to have an attack roll to get sneak attack damage. Attack is never actually defined, unless your looking at the attack standard action, in which case spells would never count. But some spells require attack rolls, and so are attacks, you say. Why is that the deciding factor? Why isnt magic missile an attack? I dont see why my definition is wrong when you haven't provided a reason why yours is right.
Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.
Now tell me why does this exist if anyone can do it.
One problem with the game is that certain terms like "attack" and "level" are used for various things. After playing for a while it will become clear what they mean with each use, but it not clear up front.
First and foremost...
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.
Precision-based damage is referenced with "Creature Type" descriptions when a type or sub-type is immune to sneak attack. Like Incorporeal creatures:
An incorporeal creature is immune to critical hits and precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage)
Precision-based damage usually walks hand and hand with critical hits. If its immune to critical hits its immune to sneak attack dmg. One of the exceptions I can think of off the top of my head being creature types immune to flanking such as Elementals...
Not subject to critical hits or flanking. Does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks, such as sneak attack.
Now onto Spells and Critical hits.
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Special Abilities), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.
in all fairness, elementals are also immune to critical hits.
Very true, I used them because they were the only thing I could think of at the time. I think Oozes are also immune to flanking... and critical hits. Darn, did it again. ;)
I've just checked the magic missile entry in the PRD, which states that
Specific parts of a creature can't be singled out.
Hence, no vital spots and no sneak attack damage.
Maybe. A fireball is definitely an attack, but I don't think I've ever seen a claim for sneak attack damage.
Thinking about it, I think magic attacks didn't get sneak attack damage. I remember it being a surprise finding that spells using ranged to-hit rolls did.
A fireball is an attack for the purposes of breaking invisibility, per the specific wording of the Invisibility spell. A fireball is not an "attack" for any other purpose of making an attack. Same with Magic Missile or any other type of spell which targets a creature or includes that creature in its Area of Effect, but does not require an attack roll to be made.
You say im wrong and dont prove yourself right. Nothing says that magic missile isnt an attack, and nothing says that you have to have an attack roll to get sneak attack damage. Attack is never actually defined, unless your looking at the attack standard action, in which case spells would never count. But some spells require attack rolls, and so are attacks, you say. Why is that the deciding factor? Why isnt magic missile an attack? I dont see why my definition is wrong when you haven't provided a reason why yours is right.
The definition of Attack, the entries on Casting a Spell, and the language used in Invisibility all support precisely what I'm saying. So does roughly 15 years of gaming history (from 3.0 to 3.5 to PF) where this exact situation has worked the exact same way.
Man, and here I thought it'd be a real question that needs answering, not some argument over magic missiles and sneak attack.
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Im still not convinced by any of you that attacks require an attack roll by definition. Your citations, fretgod99, only say that thos things require attack rolls, not that they are the beallendall of attacks.
Trust me on this everybody on this thread is correct. Sneak attack requires an attack roll, always has, always will.
You have come on here asking for the combined wisdom of the PF community, they have all told you the same thing including wraithstrike who knows his stuff. I also know a tonne of experienced GM's who run it this way, including probably about 8 PFS venture officers. Do you really think everyone is getting it wrong? In exactly the same way? No, me neither.
You have asked for advice, it's been given and it is correct, best to be gracious and say thanks.
Or you could continue to argue the point but trust me, that's the way it works.
Hope that helps. :)
Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.Now tell me why does this exist if anyone can do it.
One problem with the game is that certain terms like "attack" and "level" are used for various things. After playing for a while it will become clear what they mean with each use, but it not clear up front.
Spells that are normally imprecise. Aoe spells like those listed in my last post. Fireball cant target a vital area. Lightning bolt is aimed, but the sneak attack die wouldnt carry over. flaming sphere doesnt have an attack roll, and cant hit vital spots. I give up on magic missile with the specific imprecision wording.
Im still not convinced by any of you that attacks require an attack roll by definition. Your citations, fretgod99, only say that thos things require attack rolls, not that they are the beallendall of attacks.
I guess I will have to find a developer quote so you will trust my rules-fu. I will see what I can find. Stay tuned.
edit:Tell me then what can sneak attack apply to, if it does not require attack rolls. Give examples.
edit2: There is nothing to indicate a rules change between 3.5 and PF. I will not be doing a search. You can however state the foundation for thinking the Pathfinder has different rules despite using the same words for this topic. So far it seems to be that you are being stubborn which is why you never told me why the Surprise Spell ability even exist if it is not even needed.
Sneak attack is for weapon based damage, and spells that require attack rolls work like weapons for the purpose of attack, so they get sneak attack, and they can crit. You will not find one example of an ability that can be used with sneak attack without an attack roll being involved, unless it is a specific rules exception such as surprise spell.
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edit2: There is nothing to indicate a rules change between 3.5 and PF. I will not be doing a search. You can however state the foundation for thinking the Pathfinder has different rules despite using the same words for this topic. So far it seems to be that you are being stubborn which is why you never told me why the Surprise Spell ability even exist if it is not even needed.
For what it's worth, I think Zip actually did try to tell you in his last post. He thinks that Surprise Spell applies to AoE attacks, and spells like Flaming Sphere, which otherwise couldn't get Sneak Attack. He also did concede the point about Magic Missile not getting it.
That part aside, I'm with the others. A spell can only get a sneak attack additional if one has to make the attack roll, even if it would, in theory, make sense that one could apply it casting from invisibility. Sneak Attack doesn't strictly mean that you can just add it any time your target is flat-footed or flanked. Other conditions have to be met as well.
The language for attacks is fine... its any offensive action. The issue is that sneak attack should really just say "weapon" in its description. This is what has lead to the OPs quite reasonable confusion. It is something that those of us coming from 3.5 probably would just take as a given and it seems like the developers did too.
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The language for attacks is fine... its any offensive action. The issue is that sneak attack should really just say "weapon" in its description. This is what has lead to the OPs quite reasonable confusion. It is something that those of us coming from 3.5 probably would just take as a given and it seems like the developers did too.
Saying that it's "any offensive action" makes it even more confusing than it already appears to have been for Zip. In that case, any damaging spell would qualify for Sneak Attack, because they are "offensive actions." If you're talking about the language for Invisibility, then it doesn't really help, either.
I also disagree that Sneak Attack should say "weapon." If it were really going to clear it up, it would be as simple as adding either one sentence or one word. Adding a sentence would be adding something along the lines of, "Sneak Attack damage is only added on a successful attack roll, or when a roll is assumed to hit (such as coup de grace)." Adding a word would be changing Sneak Attack to read thus:
If a rogue can catch an opponent when he
is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack , this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
No, I think the game clearly and almost-consistently uses the word "attack" specifically to mean "things for which you make attack rolls". Not just weapon attacks (natural weapons and unarmed strike are also attacks), but melee-attack and ranged-attack, as opposed to things which may have negative effects on people but aren't "attacks".
Except for invisibility.
No, invisibility is also fine. It is clear to everyone how it works, mostly because invisibility includes this line:
The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe.
@seebs
From CRB:
"Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don't damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don't harm anyone."
I don't see it as overlapping so much as a general->specific rule case. Bunches of spells don't follow general games rules, but specific trumps general. In the case of invisibility the actions that count as "attacks" are more broad than the general rules for attacks.
From the Critical Hits rules...
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Special Abilities), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.
It would be nice if this entry was "Spells, Critical Hits and Precision Damage:" but that whats I use it for. If something can be Critically Hit then it is subject to sneak attack as long as it doesn't have another defense against it. Such as immune to Flanking, uncanny dodge, etc. So if an Attack is subject to critical hits/fumbles then it can be used to sneak attack.
All Critical hits are subject to attack rolls period.
Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll...
It would be nice if they came out and said it because I felt it was fairly cut and dry until this post.
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@seebs
From CRB:
"Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don't damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don't harm anyone."
You do realize that this does support the OPs initial point, and clearly demonstrates part of the reason for any confusion on his part?
edit2: There is nothing to indicate a rules change between 3.5 and PF. I will not be doing a search. You can however state the foundation for thinking the Pathfinder has different rules despite using the same words for this topic. So far it seems to be that you are being stubborn which is why you never told me why the Surprise Spell ability even exist if it is not even needed.For what it's worth, I think Zip actually did try to tell you in his last post. He thinks that Surprise Spell applies to AoE attacks, and spells like Flaming Sphere, which otherwise couldn't get Sneak Attack. He also did concede the point about Magic Missile not getting it.
That part aside, I'm with the others. A spell can only get a sneak attack additional if one has to make the attack roll, even if it would, in theory, make sense that one could apply it casting from invisibility. Sneak Attack doesn't strictly mean that you can just add it any time your target is flat-footed or flanked. Other conditions have to be met as well.
** spoiler omitted **
He was still saying you dont need an attack roll for sneak attack, which is the point I was going after, and I forgot about the TWF change, but for the most part the rules are the same.
edit: I do understand his confusion. When/if PF 2.0 is released I am hopeing for cleaner language 10 years from now.. :)
You do realize that this does support the OPs initial point, and clearly demonstrates part of the reason for any confusion on his part?@seebs
From CRB:
"Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don't damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don't harm anyone."
Actually, the more I dig through rules, this is the ONLY place where an attack is defined in this manner (well and under invisibility). So it would seem that for all non-spell purposes an attack is only an attack made with a weapon, natural attack/unarmed strike or a combat maneuver.
Since sneak attack is not a spell it would have to use that default definition of attack. Furthermore, something like a demoralize attempt would count as an attack for spell purposes (eg for breaking charm person).
This actually clears things up. I genuinely can't find any other definitions. There is the attack action full attack action and an AoO. Anything other than that is not an attack unless you are talking about a spell effect which uses the word attack. In that case the definition is expanded as per the quote.
There actually IS an answer in the Core Rulebook. Read the Combat Section under "Actions". It lists several kinds of actions, some are Standard Actions, others are Full Round actions, etc.
One kind of Standard Action is an "Attack". The chart separates this into three lines "Attack (melee)", "Attack (ranged)", and "Attack (unarmed)". If you read each of those entries, they tell you exactly what the attack is.
For example:
Melee Attacks
With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).
Ranged Attacks
With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon's maximum range and in line of sight. The maximum range for a thrown weapon is five range increments. For projectile weapons, it is 10 range increments. Some ranged weapons have shorter maximum ranges, as specified in their descriptions.
Unarmed Attacks
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following...
Full-Round Actions are no different, there is a "Full Attack Action" just as with Standard Actions there is no nothing that includes spellcasting at all.
None of that, NONE of that, includes spellcasting.
Now, there are ENTIRELY SEPARATE Standard and Full-Round actions called "Cast a Spell". These are NOT listed as "Attack" actions but they are their OWN SEPARATE TYPE of action.
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So why do ANY spells get sneak attack damage?In the same Combat rules, we have the following:
Cast a Spell
Most spells require 1 standard action to cast. You can cast such a spell either before or after you take a move action.
...
Touch Spells in Combat
Many spells have a range of touch...
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack...Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage...
.
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But only touch spells.