What the heck good is 20th level paladin ability DR 10/evil?
If I'm understanding it correctly, DR 10 unless the attacker is evil. Well - duh - isn't a Paladin ALWAYS fighting evil?
To me - ever since I've read the DR rules years ago, it's backwards...(just like bad guys have DR 10/good).
Know I realize that PC's get pimped in this since they have to have a good aligned weapon to get through the "/good", but, unless my DM has been running it wrong, the "10/Evil" was bypassed by any creature who was innately evil.
(As I type this, now I'm wondering if maybe that is the problem and we have been running this wrong all of these years? For example, if a PC with DR 5/Evil faces a giant or a dragon, and they do not specifically have evil aligned weapons...do they still ignore the DR 5?)
I think paladins do break DR/Good though...can't remember for sure.
Clerics don't though, I believe, although both show up hot on the detection spells.
Monks eventually count as lawful.
Paladins do not break DR/Good. It would be a specific class ability called out in the class description if it did.
Monks do eventually count as magic, cold iron, silver and lawful with their unarmed strikes. As far as I can remember, they are the only class to have something like this.
yeah...the issue was whether powerful enough undead, by virtue of their power (how strongly evil are they I guess) could bypass it...similar in theory to the plus of a sword bypassing certain DR. At a certain point, a creature will be considered to be the equivalent of a +5 weapon which bypasses alignment DR anyhow....just how not how that is calculated. Our group (for a variety of reasons) are skipping ahead to the end of an Adventure Path, and so we are all going from having made 12th level last session to starting at 18th level for the final chapter. I was trying to decide if the 20th level paladin DR 10/evil was worth it or if I should take Ranger (to get a +2 vs the undead we are facing) or a fighter level to get an extra feat etc. Is there a table or formula to see how monsters are translated to that table to bypass DR restrictions (like I mentioned above)?
Evil Outsiders get the ability because it is specifically listed in their creature subtype. Outside of that, there's no real equivalency to power level vs. weapon enhancement bonus to overcome DR.
The enemies should need the same resources you do to overcome it, barring a game house rule to the contrary.
You need one of these:
An alignment subtype of the appropriate type
A magically aligned weapon (e.g. a Holy weapon or a weapon with Align Weapon cast on it)
A weapon with a +5 enhancement bonus (which bypasses DR/magic, DR/cold iron, DR/silver, DR/adamantine, DR/alignment)
A paladin does not bypass any DR by default, but a paladin using smite does, in fact, bypass ALL DR that an evil creature might have. (including DR slashing/bludgeoning/piercing even if he isn't using the appropriate weapon)
yeah...the issue was whether powerful enough undead, by virtue of their power (how strongly evil are they I guess) could bypass it...similar in theory to the plus of a sword bypassing certain DR. At a certain point, a creature will be considered to be the equivalent of a +5 weapon which bypasses alignment DR anyhow....just how not how that is calculated. Our group (for a variety of reasons) are skipping ahead to the end of an Adventure Path, and so we are all going from having made 12th level last session to starting at 18th level for the final chapter. I was trying to decide if the 20th level paladin DR 10/evil was worth it or if I should take Ranger (to get a +2 vs the undead we are facing) or a fighter level to get an extra feat etc. Is there a table or formula to see how monsters are translated to that table to bypass DR restrictions (like I mentioned above)?
There is no such table and no such rule.
There is only a table which states that a weapon with a high enough enhancement bonus can bypass certain types of DR based on how powerful the weapon is.
This is not quite true. At 14th Level a Paladin begins overcoming DR/Good (as do his close allies).
Lord_Malkov wrote:
but a paladin using smite does, in fact, bypass ALL DR that an evil creature might have. (including DR slashing/bludgeoning/piercing even if he isn't using the appropriate weapon)
To include the very impressive DR/Epic and DR/-. A smiting Paladin can be quite effective!
There used to be a table in 3.5 (cant find it just now, my google-fu is weak)that listed at certain HD of natural creatues started to overcome some DR (this is when there was DR/+1 DR/+2 etc.)
I also believe that if you have some kind of DR yourself you can also overcome it (weres, having DR/silver, over come DR/silver with their natural attacks)
There used to be a table in 3.5 (cant find it just now, my google-fu is weak)that listed at certain HD of natural creatues started to overcome some DR (this is when there was DR/+1 DR/+2 etc.)
I also believe that if you have some kind of DR yourself you can also overcome it (weres, having DR/silver, over come DR/silver with their natural attacks)
Again, no... this is not true.
There is a specific section under the DR rules that says that a creature with DR/Magic counts its natural attacks as magic for the purposes of overcoming DR. The same is true for creatures with DR/Epic.
This does not apply to any other type of DR. Period. End of Story.
Just because a monster has DR/Silver does NOT mean that it bypasses DR/Silver.
This is not quite true. At 14th Level a Paladin begins overcoming DR/Good (as do his close allies).
Lord_Malkov wrote:
but a paladin using smite does, in fact, bypass ALL DR that an evil creature might have. (including DR slashing/bludgeoning/piercing even if he isn't using the appropriate weapon)
To include the very impressive DR/Epic and DR/-. A smiting Paladin can be quite effective!
Actually, what is nice about that ability is that his Allies don't need to be close. The enemies do. So if an enemy is within 10ft of a 14th level paladin, the archer in the group can get the benefit of the paladin's Aura of Faith from any distance.
That table was in 1st edition Apraham. (maybe it made it's way to 3.0, but I don't think so).
This. It was pre 3.0 and it really wasn't even called "DR" at that point though conceptually it was DR.
Don't recall 1st well enough, but it is in 2nd:
Creature vs. Creature wrote:
One obvious question that arises in the minds of those with a logical bent is "How do other creatures fight those immune monsters?" In the case of monsters, sufficient Hit Dice enable them to attack immune creatures as if they were fighting with magical weapons. Table 48 lists various numbers of Hit Dice and their magical weapon equivalents.
These Hit Dice equivalents apply only to monsters. Player characters and NPCs cannot benefit from this.
Table 48:
Hit Dice Vs. Immunity
Hit Dice .. Hits creatures requiring
4+1 or more .. +1 weapon
6+2 or more .. +2 weapon
8+3 or more .. +3 weapon
10+4 or more .. +4 weapon
This is not quite true. At 14th Level a Paladin begins overcoming DR/Good (as do his close allies).
Lord_Malkov wrote:
but a paladin using smite does, in fact, bypass ALL DR that an evil creature might have. (including DR slashing/bludgeoning/piercing even if he isn't using the appropriate weapon)
To include the very impressive DR/Epic and DR/-. A smiting Paladin can be quite effective!
Actually JJ cleared this up. Paladin's smite does not bypass DR/Epic or DR/-. You must be mythic, with the appropriate path ability, or use a weapon with 6+ enhancement score to overcome epic/mythic reduction. Nothing bypasses DR/-
They should probably change the RAW then with an errata, because it pretty clearly says "any DR". It would be hard to think to exclude any type of DR from that statement if you are just looking at the rulebook.
Yep that's the table/rules. Overstretched my "This" as I meant only to refer to the "pre-3.0" part of Apraham's post. Those rules plus things I vaguely recall where you needed things like Meteorite or Adamantine to actually create a +'X' weapon all play a part in getting the present set of DR rules.
This is not quite true. At 14th Level a Paladin begins overcoming DR/Good (as do his close allies).
Lord_Malkov wrote:
but a paladin using smite does, in fact, bypass ALL DR that an evil creature might have. (including DR slashing/bludgeoning/piercing even if he isn't using the appropriate weapon)
To include the very impressive DR/Epic and DR/-. A smiting Paladin can be quite effective!
Actually JJ cleared this up. Paladin's smite does not bypass DR/Epic or DR/-. You must be mythic, with the appropriate path ability, or use a weapon with 6+ enhancement score to overcome epic/mythic reduction. Nothing bypasses DR/-
Care to point to a FAQ on this?
I enjoy reading JJ's posts as much as anyone, and he understands the game well, but he repeatedly points out that his posts aren't "the law."
CRB wrote:
Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.
That's a pretty unequivocal statement, and I take it as both RAW and RAI.
Actually, what is nice about that ability is that his Allies don't need to be close. The enemies do. So if an enemy is within 10ft of a 14th level paladin, the archer in the group can get the benefit of the paladin's Aura of Faith from any distance.
CRB wrote:
Any attack made against an enemy within 10 feet of her is treated as good-aligned for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction.
English being the incredibly imprecise language that it is, the sentence makes the most sense the way you interpret it, since "enemy" is nearer to "her" in the sentence than "attack." Thus, I would tend to agree with your interpretation, but both the sentence, and the thematics of this could be interpreted to mean that "attacks launched from within 10' of the paladin are treated as good-aligned" so that an archer paladin, could stand back with her buddies and cause their attacks to overcome DR/Good.
In practice,a s a GM, I think I would ask my paladin players which interpretation they prefer! as a melee paladin might like one! and the archer the other! and thus I'd have no problem with it working differently for different Paladins,
English being the incredibly imprecise language that it is, the sentence makes the most sense the way you interpret it, since "enemy" is nearer to "her" in the sentence than "attack." Thus, I would tend to agree with your interpretation, but both the sentence, and the thematics of this could be interpreted to mean that "attacks launched from within 10' of the paladin are treated as good-aligned" so that an archer paladin, could stand back with her buddies and cause their attacks to overcome DR/Good.
English may be less precise, but there's several clues that English speakers use in this situation. The first is that "her" is consistently applied in the entire Paladin section to mean "the paladin", so if they wanted to mean "the attacker", they would have said so. Secondly, the paladin's ability is described as an Aura, which is in lexical terminology, game terminology in general and PRG terminology in specific, is an effect centered on and spreading from the user (in this case, the paladin).
The sentence could easily be rephrased: "If an enemy is within 10' of the paladin, any attacks against that target are treated as good-aligned for the purpose of overcoming Damage Reduction."
I'm just offering the possibility that it can be read as "any attacks made by attackers within 10' of the paladin..." Which still treats it as an aura, and isn't crazy based on how other paladin auras work, or even sharing the smite.
This is not quite true. At 14th Level a Paladin begins overcoming DR/Good (as do his close allies).
Lord_Malkov wrote:
but a paladin using smite does, in fact, bypass ALL DR that an evil creature might have. (including DR slashing/bludgeoning/piercing even if he isn't using the appropriate weapon)
To include the very impressive DR/Epic and DR/-. A smiting Paladin can be quite effective!
Actually JJ cleared this up. Paladin's smite does not bypass DR/Epic or DR/-. You must be mythic, with the appropriate path ability, or use a weapon with 6+ enhancement score to overcome epic/mythic reduction. Nothing bypasses DR/-
I'm interested in this as well.
Smite Evil:
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.
In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.
The smite evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead or the next time the paladin rests and regains her uses of this ability. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: Paladin, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.
I don't see how people can think that Smite evil doesn't bypass any DR. It specifically uses the word "any". It can also be confused sometimes that smite evil bypasses DR of any creature, but if you go on to read it says that smite only effects evil. By the obvious wording, smite evil would go through the DR of an evil creature who has infinity/nothing in the game. It's the same overruling principle as a blackguard's fear aura against a paladin's fearless aura.
What the heck good is 20th level paladin ability DR 10/evil?
If I'm understanding it correctly, DR 10 unless the attacker is evil. Well - duh - isn't a Paladin ALWAYS fighting evil?
To me - ever since I've read the DR rules years ago, it's backwards...(just like bad guys have DR 10/good).
Know I realize that PC's get pimped in this since they have to have a good aligned weapon to get through the "/good", but, unless my DM has been running it wrong, the "10/Evil" was bypassed by any creature who was innately evil.
(As I type this, now I'm wondering if maybe that is the problem and we have been running this wrong all of these years? For example, if a PC with DR 5/Evil faces a giant or a dragon, and they do not specifically have evil aligned weapons...do they still ignore the DR 5?)
Jeff
Here's what it takes to bypass the Paladin DR.
1. Natural attacks from a creature with the evil subtype. (or their weapons if the bestiary says their weapons carry the bypass. Most outsider weapons qualify)
2. Smite Good from an Anti-Paladin.
3. an evil aligned weapon wielded by anyone else.
Neutral characters, animals, vermin, etc. still have to deal with the Paladin's DR.
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