After playing for 5 levels in ROTRL, I noticed full-round attacks aren't as common as a lot of the TWF proponents insist they are. In addition, it tends to leave rogues in "unfavorable" circumstances. HELP ME UNDERSTAND!
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Finessing an ECB is superior to TWF because you get full power attack bonuses, have only like 4-5 feat taxes before everything become icing (you need Shadow Strike, Power Attack, EWP:ECB (perhaps), Furious Focus, and Weapons Finesse). TWF is good for a rogue due to the increased SA, but your damage will be more consistant, and you take less penalties, with 2H weapons. Of course, a strength based rogue can do ridiculous damage with bludgeoner and sap adept/master feats, and skulking slayer scout archetypes (6d8+12+1.5Str+1d10, at level 5), and is superior to finesse, but thats another story.
What is ECP?
My son is having great results playing an Elven Rogue/Urban Ranger using an Elven Curveblade. He has 18 Dex and 14 Str, Finnesse, and the two-weapon style giving him Power Attack and Cleave. His normal damage (at level 5) is 1d10+10, with +8 to hit. Quite reasonable for breaking DR.
If you don't mind, I'd like the number breakdown for achieving that kind of combat damage.
+3 from str, +3 from power attack, prolly +1 from magic. What else?
My son is having great results playing an Elven Rogue/Urban Ranger using an Elven Curveblade. He has 18 Dex and 14 Str, Finnesse, and the two-weapon style giving him Power Attack and Cleave. His normal damage (at level 5) is 1d10+10, with +8 to hit. Quite reasonable for breaking DR.If you don't mind, I'd like the number breakdown for achieving that kind of combat damage.
Presuming he has a +1 weapon and weapon focus:
Attack: 4 BAB + 4 dexterity + 1 weapon focus + 1 enhancement - 2 power attack = 8
Damage: 1d10 + 3 strength + 6 power attack + 1 enhancement = 1d10+10
My son is having great results playing an Elven Rogue/Urban Ranger using an Elven Curveblade. He has 18 Dex and 14 Str, Finnesse, and the two-weapon style giving him Power Attack and Cleave. His normal damage (at level 5) is 1d10+10, with +8 to hit. Quite reasonable for breaking DR.
Yes, but that is a ranger, a full BAB class and thus a character getting much more out of power attack. Not as noticeable a difference until mid levels, but it is still a point.
And why is everyone complaining about a rogue's bonus to hit with TWF? While they might not have as much opportunity for boosts as some other classes, there are still plenty of combat ready classes with 3/4 BAB. Are all of you using power attack/piranha strike with it? Rogues get an average of 3.5 extra damage per...situational hit.. per 2 levels. That comes out better than power attack. And if they only use TWF, they have a similar attack bonus as a ranger with power attack against a non-favored enemy.
Admittedly, they can still be hard to work with due to feat starvation and some lack of actually pulling off full attacks, particularly with appropriate circumstances. Ninja surpasses it there with vanish/invisible blade.
The best rogue fighting style is finesse 2 weapons.
The least optimal combat style in PFRPG is finesse 2 weapons.
You sir, have discovered why everyone on these boards hates rogues.
Myself, I agree with ShadowcatX on his second option. Thrown weapons like daggers that you can use without having to move can make your TWF style actually work, the only thing that sucks is that Two Weapon Feint does not work with this style, nor can you get flanking bonuses if you are not engaged in melee, meaning getting that sneak attack off is a lot harder.
/rogue life
I know there is a lot of negativity about the Rogue's role in the party. It can't all be irrefutably true.
There must be something to alleviate its glaring weaknesses. Perhaps we should make a thread titled, "Ways to Bring the Rogue to a Higher Tier."
With a Finesse ECB, the rogue will have a high reflex, AC, initiative, and acrobatics. The rogue will be able to move into favorable position much easier than those str classes. Say the rogue uses a Mithril Breastplate with Armor Expert. Now a 1st level rogue has a 20 AC at level one and is still incredibly mobile allowing it to reap those sneak attack bonuses as much as possible.
Maybe the Butterfly's Sting and Improved Critical with ECB? You'll be doing pretty good damage yourself, but if you crit you can just transfer your crits to the Archer.
I don't know. I want to succeed with my rogue!
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I don't think TWF is the best style for a rogue, although it's high damage in optimal situations.
If you want an easier and more feat-friendly style, a tengu rogue with a the Claw Attack alternate racial trait will outdamage a TWF rogue for most of the TWF's career. Get a helm of the mammoth lord for a fourth natural attack, and you'll have more attacks than the TWF until he picks up Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and you'll still outdamage him until he's level 15; that is, unless you pick up Improved Unarmed Strike to rock more attacks then he'll ever get.
I know there is a lot of negativity about the Rogue's role in the party. It can't all be irrefutably true.
There must be something to alleviate its glaring weaknesses. Perhaps we should make a thread titled, "Ways to Bring the Rogue to a Higher Tier."
With a Finesse ECB, the rogue will have a high reflex, AC, initiative, and acrobatics. The rogue will be able to move into favorable position much easier than those str classes. Say the rogue uses a Mithril Breastplate with Armor Expert. Now a 1st level rogue has a 20 AC at level one and is still incredibly mobile allowing it to reap those sneak attack bonuses as much as possible.
Maybe the Butterfly's Sting and Improved Critical with ECB? You'll be doing pretty good damage yourself, but if you crit you can just transfer your crits to the Archer.
I don't know. I want to succeed with my rogue!
I really think if you don't cast spells you should get full BAB. That right there would go a long way to helping fix up the Monk and the Rogue, but the rogue itself is actually not bad at all. You just need to get creative about getting sneak attacks.
So, shatter defenses builds
Skirmisher Archtype w/vital strike and a 2-hander
Skirmisher Archtype w/cleave and surprising follow through feats
Eldritch Heritage(arcane) for a flanking familiar
Ring of invisibilty
UMD + Wand of greater invis.
UMD + wand of Twilight Knife (a personal favorite)
Improved Two-Weapon Feint and TWF feats
Quick dirty trick for blinds
There are lots of ways to get sneak attacks, but they require character building resources. None of this makes a rogue weak in my view though, I enjoy the class. They could maybe use some more useful talents and less dead weight ones though.
OP, can you post the other player-characters (class/archetype, level, etc) that make up your RotRL party?
IMHO, a rogue with a reach weapon like a longspear is the most optimal rogue. Bonus points for having a moderately high or higher Strength score. The reach weapon's extra 5 ft. of threatened area makes flanking a ton easier and puts you at less risk against many opponents. Since you're not taking two-weapon-fighting penalties your attack bonus isn't that horrible until higher levels when your lack of BAB and/or self buffing makes you look more like a wizard or sorcerer in terms of to-hit bonuses.
By the way, what I mean by wizard or sorcerer is, all the full BAB classes have ways to boost their +hit/+damage even higher than it already is. Fighters can get up to +8 additional hit, rangers can get several bonuses to hit and damage on demand, paladins can get significant bonuses on hit and damage, barbarians can get significant bonuses to hit and damage. All on top of their full BAB which is anywhere from 1-5 points higher than yours.
Meanwhile all the 3/4 classes have ways of boosting their hit rolls as well, with the exception of the rogue/ninja and monk (oh what do you know). Bards have Inspire Courage and lots of self buffs. Magus has lots of self buffs. Cleric and Druid have lots of self buffs. Inquisitors have significant methods of increasing their to-hit modifiers. Alchemists have significant methods of improving their to-hit. Summoners are summoners.
Without the class-based resources to hit, rogues are not even on the scale with other 3/4 classes in terms of being able to hit in combat. More comparable to a 1/2 BAB caster under the effects of their own buffs (which isn't optimal but it is what it is). There's a reason that that -2 to hit from TWF hurts a lot for rogues. :P
When you say, "tweak the gear selection," what does that mean?
So you seem to be a strong supporter of TWF of 2H fighting. My DM assigned me a race which gets Power Attack or Combat Expertise as well as proficiency with all sword weapons. I still want to be a full Dex rogue.
Your gear list is pretty thorough. Everyone refers to this, "bag of tricks," that Rogues have. Is this primarily referring to their variety of skills? Or the feats that Rogues need to take in order to properly dirty trick, feint, intimidate.
Ahhhhhhh, I'm gonna need to see some feats! Your Str rogue looks totally ferocious.
And why is everyone complaining about a rogue's bonus to hit with TWF? While they might not have as much opportunity for boosts as some other classes, there are still plenty of combat ready classes with 3/4 BAB. Are all of you using power attack/piranha strike with it? Rogues get an average of 3.5 extra damage per...situational hit.. per 2 levels. That comes out better than power attack. And if they only use TWF, they have a similar attack bonus as a ranger with power attack against a non-favored enemy.If you ever run the math you'll see the problem. But I'll help as I can.
Fighters get a bonus to hit in the form of weapon training, and have a full base attack bonus. Barbarians get a bonus to hit in the form of bonus to strength during rage and have a full base attack bonus, and can get a rage power for yet better bonuses to hit. Paladins get a bonus to hit from smite and have a full base attack bonus, and their bond to their sword can improve their attack even more. A ranger meanwhile receives a bonus to hit from favored enemy and comes with his own built in flanking companion, and receives full base attack bonus. You know what the rogue never, ever receives? A bonus to hit. And they're a 3/4 base attack bonus class.
You know what you never, ever, see on these boards? Someone bragging about how good their ranger is against creatures other than their favored enemy. Or someone bragging about how good their paladin is against neutral opponents. So yeah, a rogue may have almost as good a bonus to hit as them against their worst matchups, but do you want your best to be as good as someone else's worst?
But TWF doesn't just take away your bonus to hit. It hurts your bonus to damage as well. First, you have the dexterity requirement, which any other melee class can just not take. That's points that don't go to strength, and strength is what determines your to hit and your damage. Then having two weapons is more expensive than having just one weapon, so their weapons also...
I realize that it is hardly optimal, but it is certainly passable. From the way I hear it, people make it sound like a rogue with TWF is like a wizard trying to power attack with a great sword. (I know ashiel's argument, but I am wary of how severe the problem might be in practice)
Plus, I think people over estimate how hard it is to decent dex and strength at the same time. This comes from the constant desire to have 18+ stats. With a 20 point buy, I could get a 16, 14, 14 spread without any trouble. Getting one of those 14's up to a 16 is easy, since a +2 to Dex is the most common racial modifier in the game. You could do it with core races with anything other than a dwarf or a gnome. Anyway, a 16 is more than enough to start off with for TWF. Putting a single ability score increase will get you a 17 DEX, which is all you really need (I mean, greater TWF is rather useless on a 3/4 BAB class).
TGMaxMaxer, is it possible to achieve similar damage as a dex rogue compared to your str rogue?
My 11th level Dex based Halfling Rogue tumbles through their square on a take 10(giving him around a 40) then uses sleight of hand to disarm any humanoid (another take 10 gets him around 40 as well), or take a free sneak attack instead. Now, they're unarmed, and unless they have unarmed strike, or a backup weapon (usually far less enchanted/focused on) they provoke for attacks.How, prey tell, are you disarming with sleight of hand. That's a gross misreading of the rules.
I realize that it is hardly optimal, but it is certainly passable. From the way I hear it, people make it sound like a rogue with TWF is like a wizard trying to power attack with a great sword. (I know ashiel's argument, but I am wary of how severe the problem might be in practice)
Well I didn't say Wizard power attacking with a greatsword, so please don't get me wrong. :P
I was saying that a rogue is roughly the equivalent of having a 1/2 BAB plus buffs, whereas other classes are 3/4 or 1/1 with buffs.
A wizard (and I have made martial wizards before, though they were much stronger in 3.x :P) has a poor attack bonus but has access to a pretty wide assortment of buffs (some of which have impressive durations or can be crafted into magic items at a reasonable cost via your item creation bonus feats). When you start getting into things like greater invisibility granting +2 to hit and forcing your foe to lose Dex/Dodge bonuses to AC, have haste active, and spells such as heroism and enlarge person, you can get a 1/2 BAB attacker up enough to land some hits without much issue.
The problem is rogues aren't magicians. It's not poking fun of the rogue, just pointing out that the rogue is a 3/4 class but his actual to-hit mods look more like a wizard trying to get up to a 3/4 class, where other 3/4 classes and 1/1 classes have benefits pushing their to-hit into the stratosphere.
Vanishing Trick is a very useful ninja-trick to yank as a rogue to help with hitting better. Unfortunately, that may come with some undesired circumstances (all good rogues randomly turn invisible, though I will say it works in WoW so maybe it's not that bad :P).
I remember when a friend of mine in an online campaign was shocked to find that a ranger with power attack and a longsword could outdamage his TWF rogue. It all came down to to-hit rolls. The accuracy loss from being a rogue was hurting too much in the calculations and in many cases his two-weapon fighting hurt it worse. He was like "Well the rogue can take power attack too!" and so he did and his damage numbers came out even worse compared to the ranger (again, because of accuracy loss affecting DPR horribly). I pointed out the Ranger hadn't even really begun to fight since he could still self buff with things like instant enemy or his Quarry class feature, and if it was one of his favored enemies (Rangers have quite a few groups by high levels) then he was enjoying an extra +2 or better on hit rolls without burning resources.
However
By no means is the rogue unplayable. The issue resides in that most every other class is more playable while being able to do much the same things as rogues. The rogue could use a little bit of a boost, but if your system mastery is strong (or at least system mastery with rogues for the rogue fans ;D) then a rogue can be quite formidable.
Plus, I think people over estimate how hard it is to decent dex and strength at the same time. This comes from the constant desire to have 18+ stats. With a 20 point buy, I could get a 16, 14, 14 spread without any trouble. Getting one of those 14's up to a 16 is easy, since a +2 to Dex is the most common racial modifier in the game. You could do it with core races with anything other than a dwarf or a gnome. Anyway, a 16 is more than enough to start off with for TWF. Putting a single ability score increase will get you a 17 DEX, which is all you really need (I mean, greater TWF is rather useless on a 3/4 BAB class).
My group plays 15 point buy if that means anything to you. I can't recall the last time I made a character (PC or NPC) with point buy that had an 18 base statistic. Usually the cap for my point buy is 16 with a +2 racial. Mostly 14s, 13s, 12s, and 7-9s rounding it out.
Generally the more MAD the class is, the more I spread the love. +2 in lots of things is USUALLY worth more than +3 in one thing, unless the class gets a lot of synergy from it (such as Paladins counting Charisma as the one stat to rule them all).
Myself, I saw screw power attack with my rogues, and go light weapons, finesse, with piranha strike. It lets me keep a low STR and allows me to buy in a higher DEX which makes the attack bonus actually higher, while retaining the damage output, once Agile weapons become available my damage starts to really take off. And fwiw, a rogue with two weapon feint can focus on one weapon using his other to feint with, cutting his costs to match someone with one weapon.
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Sorry for the late reply - Dasrak was correct in his math.
Presuming he has a +1 weapon and weapon focus:
Attack: 4 BAB + 4 dexterity + 1 weapon focus + 1 enhancement - 2 power attack = 8
Damage: 1d10 + 3 strength + 6 power attack + 1 enhancement = 1d10+10
Correct on all counts.
Yes, but that is a ranger, a full BAB class and thus a character getting much more out of power attack. Not as noticeable a difference until mid levels, but it is still a point.
No, he's currently a Rogue 3/Ranger 2. He started as a Rogue.
Myself, I saw screw power attack with my rogues, and go light weapons, finesse, with piranha strike. It lets me keep a low STR and allows me to buy in a higher DEX which makes the attack bonus actually higher, while retaining the damage output, once Agile weapons become available my damage starts to really take off. And fwiw, a rogue with two weapon feint can focus on one weapon using his other to feint with, cutting his costs to match someone with one weapon.
Agreed on never putting power attack on a rogue by the way. My friend really screwed the pooch on that one when he recalculated his damage numbers. His damage actually went down with power attack purely because of accuracy. :P
Fun build, THE CAT BURGLAR!
Race: Half-Orc
lvl 4 Lion Shaman Druid
lvl 8 Skulking Slayer Rogue
Take the following feats
Shaping Focus
Combat Expertise
Improved Feint
Greater Feint
Power Attack
then anything else you want.
Style: Wildshape into a big cat. With items, lets say you have str 22 at 12th level. You are up to 26 with wildshape.
You get a free feint as part of a charge, so with full ranks that is +19 to feint (+4 more if you take skill focus, +3 more with a circlet of persuasion, even more if you put dueling on your AoMF)
BAB is +9, +2 for an AoMF, +8 for strength, -3 for power attack, -1 for size, +2 for charge so +17 on each of your 5 pounce attacks against a feinted target.
so 4 claws that each deal 2d4+4d6+16 and a bite that deals 6d6+16
if everything hits, that is an average damage of 141 damage on the charge!
If you have a cool GM, then you can ask to be an alternately sized cat, so you can be Dex based and turn into a tiny House Cat (+4 dex -2 str +1 NA) that has Pounce/rake/bite. Basically you just take a leopard and drop its size and weapon dice down twice.
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Myself, I saw screw power attack with my rogues, and go light weapons, finesse, with piranha strike. It lets me keep a low STR and allows me to buy in a higher DEX which makes the attack bonus actually higher, while retaining the damage output, once Agile weapons become available my damage starts to really take off. And fwiw, a rogue with two weapon feint can focus on one weapon using his other to feint with, cutting his costs to match someone with one weapon.Agreed on never putting power attack on a rogue by the way. My friend really screwed the pooch on that one when he recalculated his damage numbers. His damage actually went down with power attack purely because of accuracy. :P
If a rogue is going two-handed, Power Attack with Furious Focus should be a damage increase in most situations.
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Different fun build:The Nonlethal Killer
Race:Half-Orc
Class:Skulking Slayer Scout12
Feats:
Power Attack
Furious Focus
Bludgeoner
Sap Adept
Sap Master
(optional)Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Dwarven Longhammer/Tetsubo)
With this, you can ignore PA penalties on a single attack, and assuming a 22 str. by level 12, you can (on any charge), do 1d10+12d8+41, or an average of 101 damage on a charge, and if you get a full attack against a flat-footed foe, you can get 2 attacks at the same amount of damage each, for 202 average damage, and you feint as a swift action before a charge. If you have to do lethal (like if the foe is immune to non-lethal damage), the average damage goes down by 39 points per swing. Dwarven Longhammer nets a +1 average damage per swing and reach. Tetsubo nets you a x4 crit.
More fun Builds
I call this one Mr. Chokey
Lvl 12 Rogue
Feats
IUS (can use a trick)
Imp. Grapple
Greater Grapple
Rapid Grappler
Items:
Anaconda Coil
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver (Grapple)
Brawling Armor (any)
AoMF +2
Str 22 (+6)
BAB +9/+4
Grapple CMB:+26
Round 1, grapple your target +26. Constrict for 1d6+6.
Pin Target +26. Constrict for 1d6+6.
Damage Target +26 with unarmed strike 8d6+16
Round 2, three grapples @ +31. Each deals sneak attack damage to the pinned target of 8d6+16.
Round 1 63 damage on average if all hit
Round 2 132 damage on average if all hit
Add knockout artist and pinning knockout by level 14 and you are dealing 1d6+10+14d6+14 non-lethal damage per grapply SA and +1d6+6 for constrict.
During the second round you can deal an average of 76.5 non-lethal per check and up to 229 average non-lethal with all three checks
If a rogue is going two-handed, Power Attack with Furious Focus should be a damage increase in most situations.Myself, I saw screw power attack with my rogues, and go light weapons, finesse, with piranha strike. It lets me keep a low STR and allows me to buy in a higher DEX which makes the attack bonus actually higher, while retaining the damage output, once Agile weapons become available my damage starts to really take off. And fwiw, a rogue with two weapon feint can focus on one weapon using his other to feint with, cutting his costs to match someone with one weapon.Agreed on never putting power attack on a rogue by the way. My friend really screwed the pooch on that one when he recalculated his damage numbers. His damage actually went down with power attack purely because of accuracy. :P
That's probably true. But he wasn't. He was trying to maximize the number of attacks that could land sneak attack, which meant he was dual-wielding. Dual wielding + power attack + 3/4 BAB with no great buffs to accuracy = worse DPR than without PA.
But 2H strength rogues are quite handy with reach weapons. ^_^
Well, it has been mentioned several times all ready but a good dmg based rogue is the Skulking Slayer/Scout. I went with Cleave and Surprise Follow Through. Later Dragon Style and Cleaving Finish. Sneak attack on a charge, sneak attack if I move more than 10ft, sneak attack on cleaves. He was a pretty good mobile fighter!
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If a rogue is going two-handed, Power Attack with Furious Focus should be a damage increase in most situations.Myself, I saw screw power attack with my rogues, and go light weapons, finesse, with piranha strike. It lets me keep a low STR and allows me to buy in a higher DEX which makes the attack bonus actually higher, while retaining the damage output, once Agile weapons become available my damage starts to really take off. And fwiw, a rogue with two weapon feint can focus on one weapon using his other to feint with, cutting his costs to match someone with one weapon.Agreed on never putting power attack on a rogue by the way. My friend really screwed the pooch on that one when he recalculated his damage numbers. His damage actually went down with power attack purely because of accuracy. :P
That's probably true. But he wasn't. He was trying to maximize the number of attacks that could land sneak attack, which meant he was dual-wielding. Dual wielding + power attack + 3/4 BAB with no great buffs to accuracy = worse DPR than without PA.
But 2H strength rogues are quite handy with reach weapons. ^_^
Ouch, yeah. In general, Power Attack for TWF is not a great option. If you ARE going to try it, I like scimitar + cestus so that you can still two-hand it when a single attack is all you can get.