| 17 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Cavalier archetype Emissary replaces Tactition special abilities at 1st and 9th level, however at 17th level instead of replacing Master Tactitian (a 17th level ability) Erratic Charge replaces Supreme Charge (a 20th level ability). Otherwise the Emissary gets all other charge abilities. Would it not be correct to continue to replace the tacitian tree?
Any chance of moving this to the Rules section?
I've seen quite a few things like this where they just seem to have forgotten to add something or replaced the wrong thing.
This is not the only example of an ability that replaces a higher level ability. The animal Shaman archetypes do this too. Totemic Summons, a level 5 ability, replaces Thousand Faces, a level 13 ability.
However, in the case of the Emissary this certainly appears to be an odd replacement. The Master Tactician ability should be replaced by something.
- Gauss
I always thought the same thing but have never seen any errata or clarification
I searched a while but found nothing either. It would be nice to get an "official" answer. If anyone else wants to help out with the FAQ button, or if the writer who designed the Emissary happends to drop by...
I guess most folks haven't taken an Emissary up past 17th level, however if you want to dual archetype Emissary and Luring Cavalier it becomes an issue from level one. If it's a mistake then you can do it, or is it done on purpose to specifically stop it?
There's nothing wrong with an archetype shifting the loaf of abilities from certain levels to others on its own. However, this seems to be an especially odd case.
There's nothing wrong with an archetype shifting the loaf of abilities from certain levels to others on its own. However, this seems to be an especially odd case.
I wouldn't have blinked if it made any sense. It has however surprised me that nobody has cleared this up before now, or (as far as I can tell) raised the question in the forums. Perhaps not many people have played the Emissary.
The Master Tactician ability should be replaced by something.
There is a rule that if an archetype replaces a base class ability but not a higher ability they get the base form instead of the higher version.
As written this archetype should simply get tactician at level 17.That might not be RAI but without errata it seems RAW.
Umbranus, I vaguely remember something like that as well but I cannot find it. Do you have a reference?
- Gauss
I can only requote from the boards here and can't cross check it for correctness (don't have my books here at work):
As per UM p.14
If an archetype replaces a class ability that is part of a
series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such
as a fighter’s weapon training or a ranger’s favored enemy),
the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts
as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype.
In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the
next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an
archetype replaces a rogue’s +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd
level, when she reaches 5th level and gains a sneak attack
bonus, her sneak attack doesn’t jump from +1d6 to +3d6—
it improves to +2d6, just as if she had finally gained the
increase at 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every
level at which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th
level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.
Good enough, thanks. That is also on Ultimate Combat page 23. I'm sure some would debate it as only applying to sequential abilities like sneak attack but I think that Master Tactician is an improvement on Tactician.
- Gauss
The thread where I found it was about the hexcrafter magus who looses spell recall but not greater spell recall and thus, as of this rule, gets spell recall when the normal magus would get greater spell recall.
And there are other archetypes with which this applies. The magus was just one I remembered and thus had an easy time finding now.
The Master Tactician ability should be replaced by something.
There is a rule that if an archetype replaces a base class ability but not a higher ability they get the base form instead of the higher version.
As written this archetype should simply get tactician at level 17.
That might not be RAI but without errata it seems RAW.
This would mean replacing a level 17 class feature with a level 1 class feature. To me that makes even less sense. It may well be Rules As Written but I am trying to find out the Rules As Intended. Hence trying to FAQ. Hence asking for Errata.
If it is intended then I would like confirmation of that.
If its taken as written you actually get a 1st level power instead of a 17th level one then get no 20th level power atall.Either someone really hates cavalier emissaries or this is an error. Have to agree it would be nice to confirm either way.
Does anyone know who actually wrote the Emissary archetype?
..bump.. while America is awake.
If its taken as written you actually get a 1st level power instead of a 17th level one then get no 20th level power atall.Either someone really hates cavalier emissaries or this is an error. Have to agree it would be nice to confirm either way.
Another way to look at it would be to say that for swapping his 17th level power for a 1st level power he gets his 20th level power early (at level 17).
I can understand it if you do not like the higher abilities, but apart from that there is no problem.
If its taken as written you actually get a 1st level power instead of a 17th level one then get no 20th level power atall.Either someone really hates cavalier emissaries or this is an error. Have to agree it would be nice to confirm either way.Another way to look at it would be to say that for swapping his 17th level power for a 1st level power he gets his 20th level power early (at level 17).
I can understand it if you do not like the higher abilities, but apart from that there is no problem.
Not really.
Does any other archetype not get a capstone ability? I can't see erratic charge as a 20th level power. Can you?
Does any other archetype not get a capstone ability? I can't see erratic charge as a 20th level power. Can you?
Yes. It is rather similar in power level to the normal cavalier capstone.
You make two attacks, one at -5 penalty, but in the end, if both hit deal the same amount of damage. You just have to have two targets to hit.