So, I found a great build for a Necromancer character that uses Wizard, Cleric and Mystic Theurge lvls, and I plan to give it a shot.
The problem is, I've never played a spellcaster, let alone a necromancer.
So my question is, what spells should I be getting to make this work?
This is the build-
Human, max out Int and Wis.
1: Wizard (Necromancy(Undead)) 1: Arcane bond(bonded object, Necromancer's Athame when you can afford it), Feat: Spell focus (necromancy), Skill focus (Knowledge religion)
2: Wizard 2
3: Wizard 3: Feat: Spell Specialization (animate dead, lesser)
4: Cleric (Undead Lord) 1: Command Unead
5: Cleric 2: Feat: some metamagic feat
6: Cleric 3
7: Mystic Theurge 1: Feat: some metamagic feat
8: Mystic Theurge 2
9: Mystic Theurge 3: Feat: Undead Master, change Spell Specialization to animate dead (at this point you can create up to 48 hit dice of undead as a wizard and 48 hit dice as a cleric using animate dead spells! Caster level for each is equal to 3 + 3(Mystic Theurge) + 2(Spell Spec) + 4(Undead Master))
10: Mystic Theurge 4
11: Mystic Theurge 5: Feat: some metamagic feat
12: Mystic Theurge 6
13: Mystic Theurge 7: Feat: ?
14: Mystic Theurge 8
15: Mystic Theurge 9: Feat: Spell Perfection (animate dead) (at this point you can create up to 96 hit dice of undead with each of your classes, since Spell Perfection doubles all the numerical bonuses from your other feats. Caster level is 3 + 9(Mystic Theurge) + 4 (Spell Spec) + 8 (Undead Master))
16: Mystic Theurge 10
17: Cleric 4
18: Cleric 5
19: Cleric 6
20: Cleric 7
I forget who came up with this build, but thank you whoever you are lol.
Alright, so, more questions now lol.
1- Could you go a little more in depth as to why I shouldn't use the Undead Lord archetype? Again, I have no experience with spellcasting in any form, and therefore don't have the slightest clue what would be considered good/bad/better.
2- Why would it be better to choose a different arcane school, and can you give me some ideas that would flesh well with this?
3- I'm not exactly going for optimal here, so much as getting the highest HD of controlled undead at once. From what I understand, the Mystic Theurge is necessary for this build, allowing you to reach 96 hit die of undead per class.
4- I'm playing human for flavor reasons. The only 2 things I'm not willing to change about this are the race, and the fact that it's a necromancer lol.
Tnx for your input so far. C;
1- Could you go a little more in depth as to why I shouldn't use the Undead Lord archetype? Again, I have no experience with spellcasting in any form, and therefore don't have the slightest clue what would be considered good/bad/better.
Clerics usually get to select two domains. These determine which powers the Cleric gets, as well as which spells they have access to for their domain spell slots. The undead lord loses one domain and is forced to use the undeath domain (which has a bad spell list) for the other. This is a huge sacrifice, and the undeath lord archetype doesn't offer nearly enough to compensate.
2- Why would it be better to choose a different arcane school, and can you give me some ideas that would flesh well with this?
The Necromancer class features duplicate the Cleric's class features. It's not the end of the world, but you will get more mileage out of other school powers and it won't have a serious negative ramification against your ability to cast necromancy spells.
Speaking of school selection, I notice you haven't selected your opposition schools yet. I'd suggest picking any two of the following: enchantment, divination, abjuration, or evocation. These are schools that aren't very helpful for a minion-mancer or can be easily accommodated by your Cleric spellcaster.
3- I'm not exactly going for optimal here, so much as getting the highest HD of controlled undead at once. From what I understand, the Mystic Theurge is necessary for this build, allowing you to reach 96 hit die of undead per class.
The point being that it's a long and difficult road to get there. You won't really mature until you're character level 10.
Wizard 3: Feat: Spell Specialization (animate dead, lesser)
You can't cast lesser animate dead yet, so you'll need to assign this to a different spell for the time being. You must be able to cast the desired spell spell before you can assigned it to spell specialization (lesser animate dead is a 3rd level spell for a wizard, meaning you must be a 5th level to cast it). You can just assign the feat to a different necromancy spell in the interim, since the spell specialization feat lets you re-assign it to a different spell whenever you level up.
Furthermore, lesser animate dead isn't very good. You can't create fast zombies or bloody skeletons with this spell, so you're still paying the regular cost for creating undead minions but they're substantially weaker. This is not really worthwhile; wait for the real-deal animate dead spell.
Ensure you get the "Magical Knack" trait, which will let you raise the caster level of one of your classes by 2. If your GM isn't allowing traits, you should spend a feat to learn that trait and one other.
A lot of people don't like giving up access to a 2nd domain for what amounts to a wierd undead cohort. Basically the question you need to ask yourself is at end game, is the 10HD Zombie/Skeleton better than access to the domain power and spells from a 2nd domain? Granted, you do get access to some bonus feats and super undead healing, and thematically it makes great sense, so the real question is Optimization vs. Flavor.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but if you take the Undead version of Necromancy for your Wizard, don't you get Command Undead as a free feat?
With that in place there's even less of a reason to take Undead Lord as your cleric Archtype. Alternatively, if you do go Undead Lord, you gain nothing for taking Necromancy as your Arcane school, so why not take a more attack oriented school so you have something else up your sleeve if your minions fail you?
Also, you don't really need Skill Focus or Spell Focus, as neither really add to raising the dead.
Edit: Another thing to keep in mind is the total amount of undead you can control. With Animate dead you can control 4xCL in undead, so even though you create a ton, you can't control them all. While Command Undead makes this a little easier (you just control the left over) that's capped at your cleric level. So (and I may have done the math wrong here) it looks like with your proposed build you'd only be able to control 75 HD of undead at most (Between Animate Dead and Command Undead Feat).
With Animate dead you can control 4xCL in undead
His wizard caster level with animate dead will be 15, while his cleric caster level will be 19. That gives him 15x4 = 60 HD controlled with his wizard spell, and 19x4 = 76 HD with his cleric spell for 136 HD total.
I just noticed that he has the "Undead Master" feat in his build. If you read it very closely you'll notice that feat has a nasty little technicality: it only increases the number of undead you can create, not the number you can control.
Does it work that way? I guess I would have assumed that the spell is the spell, regardless of if you cast it once as a wizard and again as a cleric, that the limit was a character limit, not a class limit. If it lets you double down like that, I'd probably try this with my next PFS character, lol.
From what I understand yes, it is based on class rather than character; hence this build seemed so appealing.
I'm currently reading up and trying to take into account everything you guys have said so far, thank you all for helping.
I'd greatly appreciate any more advice you could give, especially what spells would synergize well for a minion-mancer build of this type.
Again, tnx for the help. C=
I would recommend taking something similar to Necromantic Affinity. That way when you heal your minions you can heal yourself as well. It also means that any "Inflict" spells you keep around for Offense can pull double duty as a heal spell for you and your minions.
And I would assume you've looked at Create Undead and Create Greater Undead. Both of those are far superior to Animate Dead, though you don't automatically control the created undead, so you either need to use the 7HD of Command Undead feat HD you have, or start casting "Command Undead" (which has a duration of 1 day/level, requiring you to cast it over and over to maintain control of really powerful servitors).
Edit: I'd forgotten about Skeleton Summoner. You can take this, then it opens up some of the Augment Summoning feats as well. At higher levels, you can use superior summons and just summon a crap load of Skeletal Champions that don't count against your controlled HD cap. Of course, they're probably not particularly useful at that point, but hey, from a flavor perspective it's neat.
Wow I'm getting alot out of this lol, this character's gonna be really fun, I can tell. ^_^
Quick question, as far as the Necromancer's Athame for my Arcane Bond, does that seem like the best option to you guys? I mean, it certainly seems useful, I'm just wondering if there's anything better.
No that seems pretty baller, and it's setup to be your arcane bond, so why not?
Fair enough lol.
The main problem I see with it, however, is that it says I have to be a necromancer to use it... Would I still count as a Necromancer if I were to pick an arcane school other than necomancy?
You're right, that's a really oddly worded magic item. I'd say you'd probably have to take either Necromancy (or the alternative Undead).
Alright, well that leads me to my next question.
Would it be a waste to take the Death Domain as a Cleric, AND make necromancy my Arcane School?
Well if you go Undead Lord you don't have a choice. If you give that up, then it depends on if you want those powers/domain spells. Personally the Protection Domain seems cool, let's you give a small AC and energy resistence boost to your minions.
Oh sorry yeah I'm pretty sure I won't go with the Undead Lord, it kinda seems like a waste.
I'm mostly just wondering if there's some big important thing I'd be losing if I ditched the Death Domain, although I don't think there is.
And yeah, the Protection Domain does seem interesting, I'll add it to my list of possibilities. ^_^
Also, the Repose Domain seems full of flavor, and rather largely what I'm looking for from that standpoint.
This character is a Necromancer... That hates undead.
Fight fire with fire and all that, hmm? XD
Maybe, though at that point a lot of the things that you have going for you to buff your undead can't be used against other undead.
I've always prefered the "Views Necromancy as a legal form of magic like any other, and does his best to ensure all free-willed undead follow the rules" type necromancer, but that's me.
If you want to go the Necromancer who hunts undead route, you can do that, but then you should focus on the command/destroy portions of necromancy instead of the creation side of things.
Well see the whole point is to literally fight undead with undead, relying on having more powerful undead in greater numbers than my enemy.
I know this is highly unconventional, but highly unconventional is kind of my thing lol. Hence I always play chaotic characters. XD
And yeah see I love undead, and hate them a the same time. I think they're absolutely awesome, but abominations at the same time. They're quite possibly my favorite thing in the world to fight, while at the same time I find necromancy extremely alluring.
It's... Complicated, to say the least. XD
It is complicated, and at higher levels you'll need to outfit your undead with their own magical weapons, or completely abandon low level undead for the higher level undead, otherwise your minions won't get past the DR of the things you're fighting.
Hm, hadn't thought about that. Duly noted lol.