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So I got to thinking, since a character who's race grants them a SLA allows them to qualify for a prestige class, such as Eldritch Knight, or Mystic Theurge, would it not also qualify them for certain feats as well such as Arcane Strike?
Follow me here, could I have an Aasimar character, let's say a paladin, who takes Arcane Strike and can burn his swift action every round he doesn't need to use a smite or lay on hands to just get free damage?
Uh oh...
Hmmm,
It certainly seems as though it would. A spell like ability would have to be arcane for this to work, but yeah, it seems it would qualify.
.... facepalm
This is what happens when you start meddling around with things that should otherwise be left alone....
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Actually, anyone can do this. The trait Alluring is the key, since it gives you an (albeit worthless) SLA whose caster level scales with your level.
My druid's animal companion, an apparently very charming Deinonychus with Int 3, has the Extra Traits feat (to grab Dirty Fighter and Alluring) in order to qualify her for Arcane Strike.
It's silly, but effective.
Actually, anyone can do this. The trait Alluring is the key, since it gives you an (albeit worthless) SLA whose caster level scales with your level.
My druid's animal companion, an apparently very charming Deinonychus with Int 3, has the Extra Traits feat (to grab Dirty Fighter and Alluring) in order to qualify her for Arcane Strike.
It's silly, but effective.
I call cheats!
hehe , no but really , it is an interesting combo. God ... so many crazy stuff people dig up.
FAQ? i am going to FAQ
FAQ? i am going to FAQ
Gnome fighters just became somewhat interesting. The animal companion thing is pretty damn funny too.
Things just got interesting...
I think they allowed SLA's to work for Prestige Classes. Why would they tell us this is not okay then?
FAQ? i am going to FAQNo Need.
ah oh well
.... facepalm
This is what happens when you start meddling around with things that should otherwise be left alone....
That is the who point of being a Wizard. :-)
[Or an Alchemist.]
/cevah
.... facepalm
This is what happens when you start meddling around with things that should otherwise be left alone....
That is the who point of being a Wizard. :-)
[Or an Alchemist.]
/cevah
Or an adventurer.
.... facepalm
This is what happens when you start meddling around with things that should otherwise be left alone....
Oh no, not the ability to add between 1 and 5 damage per hit based on level. Full casters might need a buff now to keep up with those Gnome and Tiefling fighters.
Does having a SLA and then using Arcane Strike produce more damage than TWF or Power Attack?
Not even close, and it takes a swift action to use every round. Not a problem I think.
As an untyped bonus, arcane strike stacks with all other bonuses, right?
Oh no, not the ability to add between 1 and 5 damage per hit based on level. Full casters might need a buff now to keep up with those Gnome and Tiefling fighters.
My thoughts exactly.
@ShadowcatX:
As it stands, The 17th TWF Fighter (no archetype) that I built dealt 6233 damage against AC 33 (the average AC of a CR 17 creature), and had a 28% hit rate. The 2H Fighter(again, no archetype) dealt 7098 damage, with a 39% hit rate.
TWF's miss chance on its last 3 attacks per cycle just makes it not really worth it.
What I found crunching numbers indicated that the idea that a gunslinger does not compare damage-wise to melee fighters at high levels is, well - flat-out not correct. The average touch AC of a CR 17 creature is 12; while the 2H Fighter had 156 hits (out of 400), the Gunslinger had 463 hits out of 500 - a 92% hit rate. That all calculated out to the Gunslinger doing 12269 damage.
Note that this did not take into account criticals at all; I verified that I counted all natural 20s as hits but did not include the increased damage (the method I was using made it difficult to calculate that in, unfortunately). I also did not take any DR into account.
To be fair, the melee Fighters were somewhat penalized because the scenarios I modeled didn't include things like extra attacks from Cleave - but I don't know that the number of Cleaves they would have gotten would have made up a 5-6k point deficit. Fact is, that touch AC for a Gunslinger almost guarantees that he's just going to be a damage powerhouse.
Sorry for the digression!
Oh no, not the ability to add between 1 and 5 damage per hit based on level. Full casters might need a buff now to keep up with those Gnome and Tiefling fighters..... facepalm
This is what happens when you start meddling around with things that should otherwise be left alone....
Well the thing is, everything adds up. Ya you can say, oh so what, I'm givin up on one point of damage here and there, but eventually your behind in what is expected of your damage output.
Same thing in reverse: oh so what, he's squeezing in more damage, and with all the paladin goodies he's getting, the damage adds up, especially with iterative attacks, rapid shot, many shot, two weapon fighting, etc...That's why all the uh oh, cus now the best way to build a paladin is to go asimar, or take alluring trait, and get arcane strike.
I'll admit though, maybe it gives up a feat slot and possibly trait that might be better used, so I might just be wrong. Maybe we could get some people to crunch the numbers.
Well, at 20th level, a Paladin has 4 attacks a round - let's say 5, he's got Haste or a speed weapon or something. His BAB progression is +20\+20\+15\+10\+5. Assume he's got a +5 weapon, a +8 from STR, and various other hit bonuses totaling up to +5, making that +32\+32\+28\+23\+18.
Average AC at that level is going to be 36. The likelihood is that the Paladin will hit on the first 2 attacks consistently (he needs 4 or more); he'll hit on the 3rd attack just over 50% of the time, just under 50% of the time on the fourth, and is unlikely to hit on the 5th. So on average, he'll be doing an extra 15 points most of the time, occasionally 20, very very rarely 25.
IMO, for a Paladin it wouldn't be worth the feat slot. It might be worth it for someone using TWF; the primary comment I remember during the FAQ discussions on this was that it would give Rogues a way to get some extra damage (taking the Rogue trick to be able to take a spell\SLA).
Yes, he would if the SLA qualify as arcane.
It is how the whole debate was born.
How do I know whether a spell-like ability is arcane or divine?The universal monster rules for spell-like abilities states: "Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order."
Seems easy to check. Light is in the list of arcane spells, so a light SLA is arcane.
Oh no, not the ability to add between 1 and 5 damage per hit based on level. Full casters might need a buff now to keep up with those Gnome and Tiefling fighters.My thoughts exactly.
@ShadowcatX:
** spoiler omitted **
(I assume these builds were high enough in level to remove any chance of a misfire? Those do tend to interrupt damage sprees.)
I have quote a bit I want to say to this so I'm going to start a new thread.
@ShadowkatX: Let me know the link when you start it.
@blahpers: 17th on all characters I've modeled.
I'll admit though, maybe it gives up a feat slot and possibly trait that might be better used, so I might just be wrong. Maybe we could get some people to crunch the numbers.
That's the catch, I think. You don't need a specific race, anyone can do this through Magical Talent or similar traits. But Arcane Strike isn't "free" damage, you're spending a feat and a swift action, and possibly a magic trait. How does it compare to, say Power Attack? Or broadly useful feats like Toughness, Improved Initiative, save buffs, armor and weapon proficiencies, etc. Even in a build with flexible feats, you're never getting something for nothing.
Arcane Strike is debatedly better than Eldritch Claws for natural weapon users (druids, rangers).
That's the catch, I think. You don't need a specific race, anyone can do this through Magical Talent or similar traits.
I looked into this. The only trait I found that gave a scaling caster level (so your Arcane Strike damage would actually increase) is Alluring.
Where is 'alluring' from? Could you post it please?
Where is 'alluring' from? Could you post it please?Alluring
That'll get nerfed.
Not saying that it should, but it probably will.
Wendifa Apprentice from faiths and philosophies also gives you a SLA that scales with level (actually weaker than alluring though)
Where is 'alluring' from? Could you post it please?Alluring
Improved Link
Note, for Alluring, you have to worship Bolka, Dwarven goddess of love. LG, NG, CG, and N alignments allowed.
Where is 'alluring' from? Could you post it please?AlluringImproved Link
Note, for Alluring, you have to worship Bolka, Dwarven goddess of love. LG, NG, CG, and N alignments allowed.
That's one dwarven goddess that just gained an amazing influx of followers. Also, I believe those alignment restrictions only apply to classes with a deity tie-in, so LE rogues everywhere can pay lip service to Bolka if they choose; I could be wrong, and I do think it would surely be against the spirit of the rules to do so.
You learn something new every day when perusing these threads.
Looks like Alluring and Arcane Strike will be added to my NE Dhampir Oracle/Monk/Rogue/Shadow Dancer's list of level-ups.
Bolka be damned, I see no specified restriction to gaining that Trait.
So I got to thinking, since a character who's race grants them a SLA allows them to qualify for a prestige class, such as Eldritch Knight, or Mystic Theurge, would it not also qualify them for certain feats as well such as Arcane Strike?
Follow me here, could I have an Aasimar character, let's say a paladin, who takes Arcane Strike and can burn his swift action every round he doesn't need to use a smite or lay on hands to just get free damage?
I think that this is one of the most ridiculous rulings in the game. Prestige classes are supposed to be gated with things like Spell casting requirements to put them at the appropriate levels, not to encourage you to play Aasimar to cheat your way in.
Interesting, I'm building a Rogue (probably for PFS) would this work with the Minor Magic Rogue talent?
Cool, this is a pretty nice boon for Rogue DPR.
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If it lets you get into Eldritch Knight at 2nd level, I think getting Arcane Strike is a solid step down in terms of power abuse. Seriously, at the end of the day it's a +1 on damage until it (slowly) builds up. It's not that big a deal. Honestly it feels like it makes more sense than getting into a blasted prestige class.
"I use my innate magical abilities, that let me access Daylight/whatever, to instead channel a small amount of power into my swing."
Makes a whole lot more sense than EK getting it: "Well, all those other guys had to be able to cast Fireball and have a powerful array of experience and skills to fuse these completely opposite classes together, but because I can detect whether people are zombies, I get to do it for free!"
Or you could just go magus, and be better at what the Eldritch Knight does at pretty much every level except the PrC's last one - and if you don't mind picking up Quicken, you can do that too...
PrCs in Pathfinder are incredibly lackluster. Even MT and EK, arguably two of the more potent PrCs, pale in comparison to the abilities gained by the core and base classes.
Dhampirs already have detect undead as a scaling spell like ability, unless they trade it out for fangs or dayborn...You learn something new every day when perusing these threads.
Looks like Alluring and Arcane Strike will be added to my NE Dhampir Oracle/Monk/Rogue/Shadow Dancer's list of level-ups.
Bolka be damned, I see no specified restriction to gaining that Trait.
What, these fangs..?
No, they're normal teeth just... catching the light somewhat....
<whistles innocently....>