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Actually asking the spellcasters to play by the rules, using components, buying spells etc goes a long way, and then Monsters and NPC's actually playing sensibly helps too.
Some great suggestions in this thread.
This. Most of the problem comes from the fact that the weaknesses and actual rules for spell casting are so frequently handwaved.
Martials would be just as awesome if you hand waved as much stuff...like having to make attack rolls, having to roll for damage, etc.
If all of your non-combat situations boil down to "find the right spell effect" then that's on you as well-- there are tons of social interaction goals which can be interesting plot and involve martial characters outside of combat as easily as they do spell casters.
If and only if the casters let them. Frankly, any non-combat situation in PF can be boiled down to casting the right spell.
Martials would be just as awesome if you hand waved as much stuff...like having to make attack rolls, having to roll for damage, etc.
Then you'd have to waive making saves too though...
If and only if the casters let them. Frankly, any non-combat situation in PF can be boiled down to casting the right spell.
If all of your non-combat situations boil down to "find the right spell effect" then that's on you as well-- there are tons of social interaction goals which can be interesting plot and involve martial characters outside of combat as easily as they do spell casters.
Really? You can't think of anyway to involve your players outside of casting the right spell or by pass the obstacle? They can't have a charm person for every single time they need to interact with an NPC. Put them in an audience chamber of a king with his court mage standing nearby and have them being questioned for their recent actions-- if the wizard starts mumbling and waving his hands it would be very poor etiquette and have negative consequences on the outcome.
If you are only thinking of out of combat scenarios as "here is this locked or blocked door" then sure, there are spells to get around stuff like that. That's a big part of the fun of being a spell caster-- trying to anticipate what you need to be prepared for.
But when the Wizard doesn't have Fly memorized then the Fighter with rope and climb can get you across the giant fallen tree blocking your path just as well. . .
If and only if the casters let them. Frankly, any non-combat situation in PF can be boiled down to casting the right spell.
If all of your non-combat situations boil down to "find the right spell effect" then that's on you as well-- there are tons of social interaction goals which can be interesting plot and involve martial characters outside of combat as easily as they do spell casters.Really? You can't think of anyway to involve your players outside of casting the right spell or by pass the obstacle? They can't have a charm person for every single time they need to interact with an NPC. Put them in an audience chamber of a king with his court mage standing nearby and have them being questioned for their recent actions-- if the wizard starts mumbling and waving his hands it would be very poor etiquette and have negative consequences on the outcome.
If you are only thinking of out of combat scenarios as "here is this locked or blocked door" then sure, there are spells to get around stuff like that. That's a big part of the fun of being a spell caster-- trying to anticipate what you need to be prepared for.
But when the Wizard doesn't have Fly memorized then the Fighter with rope and climb can get you across the giant fallen tree blocking your path just as well. . .
it's not that there isn't a nonmagical solution to most non-combat scenarios
it's that the nonmagical solution has the following drawbacks
- it takes way too long to really be worth the effort
- it likely depends on the martial PC investing skill points, attributes or feats, into a crossclass skill they can ill afford
- it requires a lot of money, expensive tools, or tools tailored to a specific case
- the effect requires a check the martial PC isn't likely to succeed at without massive investment, where making that skill useful, enters DM fiat territory
So I'm just trying to establish a baseline - if I want to throw 5 average to challenging encounters at the party in a session, and they are 5 level 8 characters, how many CR 8 creatures should I be using per encounter?
5 CR 8's
or 10 CR 6's
So I'm just trying to establish a baseline - if I want to throw 5 average to challenging encounters at the party in a session, and they are 5 level 8 characters, how many CR 8 creatures should I be using per encounter?5 CR 8's
or 10 CR 6's
That's a CR 13 encounter. It's considered "Very Difficult" for the average party. Of course, point buy, average level of optimization, action economy and SoL effects can schew this a bit.
That's a CR 13 encounter. It's considered "Very Difficult" for the average party. Of course, point buy, average level of optimization, action economy and SoL effects can schew this a bit.So I'm just trying to establish a baseline - if I want to throw 5 average to challenging encounters at the party in a session, and they are 5 level 8 characters, how many CR 8 creatures should I be using per encounter?5 CR 8's
or 10 CR 6's
considering that any level 8 martial built to not be an intentional supergimp can solo a CR 8 in 1-3 rounds. i recommend including 2 CR6's for each PC. makes a 2.5 round fight a 4 round fight
considering that any level 8 martial built to not be an intentional supergimp can solo a CR 8 in 1-3 rounds. i recommend including 2 CR6's for each PC. makes a 2.5 round fight a 4 round fight
I dunno. It depends a lot on action economy and what kinds of SoL abilities the opponents have.
SoL?
Save or lose. A caster's bread and butter. When you get higher level its just Lose. Or what I really love is Save and suck or save or die.
Icy Prison is a really good example. Targets reflex, the lowest traditional save of creatures and has an effect even if they succeed.
It depends on how the casters are outshining the martial characters. Generally when you design an encounter social or combat you need to look at what spells or abilities your players have access too and build accordingly. Source Severance or Antimagic Field or True Seeing can mess up magical disguises but not mundane ones for example. If it's combat is it damage or SoL that the casters are using. Resistances, good saves, immunity, or things like rings of delayed doom can really cut down on a casters impact.
It might be that the martial characters lack system mastery. If it's a low point buy or low treasure game that will also impact martial classes to a greater extent.
Using no magic zones will get old fast but if you ever want to really make the less magical classes shine there isn't much better than a trip to normal town. Just make sure you adjust any combat for the martial characters too since they won't have any magic gear.
When my group runs an AP by Paizo we generally see casters doing better than the martial classes. Home made games tend to run the other way since we can make sure SoL and SoS spells aren't going to be as meaningful or effective.
If it's really bad you could have the martial characters pick up UMD and just snow cone wish machine. Get a simulacrum of one efreeti and just wish for more simulacrum of efreeti until you have an army of wish granters. Of course for this to work you have to let the efreeti simulacra keep there wish granting but it seems a lot of people around here run it that way.
I have a party at level 8 and the Witch and Sorcerer are already making the Barbarian, Fighter, and Rogue feel more like speed bumps than contributors.
Any suggestions?
You could tell your martials to always position themselves in a way that makes impossible for the casters to use their spells in any meaningful way. If the casters complain they should be told that they should be using hexes and bloodline abilities anyways and not expect to cast area spells in a party full of melees.
That' what my late party did and they were very successful in keeping my witch in check.
If and only if the casters let them. Frankly, any non-combat situation in PF can be boiled down to casting the right spell.
If all of your non-combat situations boil down to "find the right spell effect" then that's on you as well-- there are tons of social interaction goals which can be interesting plot and involve martial characters outside of combat as easily as they do spell casters.Really? You can't think of anyway to involve your players outside of casting the right spell or by pass the obstacle? They can't have a charm person for every single time they need to interact with an NPC. Put them in an audience chamber of a king with his court mage standing nearby and have them being questioned for their recent actions-- if the wizard starts mumbling and waving his hands it would be very poor etiquette and have negative consequences on the outcome.
If you are only thinking of out of combat scenarios as "here is this locked or blocked door" then sure, there are spells to get around stuff like that. That's a big part of the fun of being a spell caster-- trying to anticipate what you need to be prepared for.
But when the Wizard doesn't have Fly memorized then the Fighter with rope and climb can get you across the giant fallen tree blocking your path just as well. . .
Potions, wands, scrolls, and other magic items. Cheap, easily available, and every wizard's favorite source of utility magic.
Brought it up in a different thread but I have a Spell Maintenance Rule from one of the Monte Cook books.
It puts a cap on how many Duration based spells a caster can have going
A Spellcaster can only have a number of non-instant, non-concentration spells running equal to his primary attribute modifier, at one time.
So a Wizard with 20 Int can have 5 spells running at one time. If he wants to cast a 6th he has to dismiss one of the others.
He can still use his Instant spells or Spells that require concentration without releasing an ongoing spell.
Some excellent responses in this thread.
Ciretose mentions playing a "smart NPC". I couldn't agree more. Don't make every NPC a "to the death" encounter. People stand out from monsters by being interested in self-preservation and their investment in the world around them. Play them smart. An alchemist with a zombie army against the PCs? I'm curious what he thought he would accomplish. He sounds like a villain whose village-raid got intercepted.
First things that come to mind: AP's tend to be well written and playtested. Take a look at some of the middle-low encounters in those books. The encounters are far from straightforward. There is invariably complications and multipliers on the field. An ogre? no It's an ogre attacking from a ledge with plenty of javelins, and the field the players are standing in is quicksand. etc.
Zombies in a forest? How did the casters have line-of-sight to their targets? How did the zombies/alchemist not have some cover/concealment from the trees? Was there mist on the ground offering minor concealment? (I couldn't pass that up if I were DM).
And yeah. One doesn't set a forest on fire around one's fighters and then depart. Someone is going to get beaten with their spellbook when the fighters get back to town.